cantwaitanymore wrote:
Base Trunks couldnt move in 100x gravity in base thats A FACT, clearly showing how low his base was. I was never comparing Gotenks and his feats to Vegito. Just saying that its a fact that Base Gotenks post Rosat > SSJ Gotenks pre Rosat, which claerly shows that fusion IS a multiplication, as it it is IMPOSSIBLE for them individually to get more 50+ times stronger in 15 DAYS.
Base Trunks was in 150g, and either way, the way he made Vegeta struggle was testament to his power. His muscle strength wasn't even worth mentioning there. He straight up made Vegeta struggle, and there's no way that Vegeta was caught off guard as is clearly presented in the manga by him gradually trying harder to the stage where he uses his hands to block, and in the end was pressured enough to stop the onslaught with a instinctive punch.
Anyway dude, it doesn't matter if it's multiplication or not (though I disagree), nothing that you've presented in the manga proves that the dance gives a greater boost than the Potara, as you even failed to provide a reason as to why Vegetto doesn't yield to same increase as Gotenks, Vegetto can be argued to be higher than ban Gotenks boost, but a lower boost is really hard to prove. Also if the dance is a multiplication, how the hell does Goku seemingly catch up to Gotenks in BoG pre god? There power would be multiplying millions together, apparently Goku is below Freeza in base, so millions being multiplied together would never allow Gokus measly 400x transformation come even the tiniest bit close to catching them. Furthermore, why is base Gotenks weaker than SSJ3 Goku when he first goes at Buu? It's pretty clear that they aren't far below there fathers judging by the demonstration against Vegeta, yet Gotenks returns totally pummeled. Again it's the same instance with BoG, millions X by millions would make Goku as a SSJ3 look like a flea in comparison. Hell, even if they were weaker than first form Freeza, and there power was 500k, they would end up with a power level of 250 billion. Goku with a level of 100 million as his base would end up with a level of 40 billion. That's low balling the kids to a degree that isn't even feasible, but let's run with this.. at that multiplier Buu would be an absolute joke. Just so you're aware of how insane that power gap is, just say instead that SSJ3 Gokus power level is now just his regular SSJ form, it would be like him turning SSJ2 then 3 on top, that would be a little over Base Gotenks when he went to fight Buu the first time. Blows have almost been outright tanked with a gap much much less, and we know for sure the boys are much stronger than a measly 500k.
There's multiple cases of the kids showing off there crazy power, Gohan was amazed by how fast base Goten could throw rocks, then in the sparring sessions we see them in Gohan is visually starining in the manga. Trunks tags Vegeta and forces him to retaliate to stop the onslaught, and is later doing 1 finger push ups in the gravity chamber (he probably got used to it as we also see a panel of Vegeta in the chamber too just prior, and he wouldn't be training below 150, though as I've said, that part isn't important) then we see 18 worried by Trunks suppressed blast. It's all impressive truly.
Going a bit deeper with the kids we can look at previous battles. Like how SSJ Goku could causally block and dodge Freeza upon first becoming a SSJ with the risk of no blows slipping through. Super Vegeta could casually dodge Semi Cell, (though he was never attacked with a flurry), yet kid Trunks made Vegeta struggle. At this stage Vegeta was much greater than previous as he must've surpassed Cell arc SSJFP Goku and also accounted for the extra training to be confident in a rematch with him, so Trunks doing that to Vegeta was mighty impressive.
We know that 50% FPSSJ surpassed SSJGr2 Vegeta in the Cell arc. Honestly all this is a massive testament to Vegetas strength, but this also proves that the kids can't possibly be below Freeza when they turn SSJ to do what they did to Gohan and Vegeta. This bit is important, but in the instances I've pointed out, the boys fathers against their foes at the time had to dodge and block blows off of purely reaction time as they had no idea where they were gonna attack from, but Vegeta told Trunks to just attack his face, so he actually should've had an easier time in a sense due to knowing exactly where they were being thrown.
Anyway, this should clearly point out that the kids aren't like 100x weaker than their fathers, and instead not really anymore than a couple X weaker. Even if they were around namek level base Goku, Gotenks would be 100s of X stronger than SSJ3 Goku and thats still keeping a giant gap and giving Goku a PL of 100 mil in base. There's many more instances of people dodging attacks with gaps not too large, but surely I don't need to post every instance for you to get the point.
Something else to add, is that Buu believed fusion wouldn't be enough against him, yet Vegetto can handle him super easily. That part does imply Vegettos boost > Gotenks’ boost
GT is not canon, that statement in GT perfect files is meaningless and it doesnt align as i have previously explained with DBZ.
The Kefla line was added dialogue by Toei, and it matches in with a Toei original product. That's why the Kefla line likely exists.
Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku. Thats a fact. Base Gogeta was stronger than PSSB Goku so its pretty obvious that its not tens of times stronger than base Goku, its astronomically higher than that.
I agree that base Gogeta is much stronger than base Goku, and much closer, if not even above a fully fresh SSJB Goku. I'm just saying if fusion is multiplication SSJB would have to give a boost in the quadrillions to come close enough to base Gogeta as the gap between the two clearly isn't all that big. And like I said that number was lowballed to pre BoG base levels, and it still ended up being a multiplier in the quadrillions for SSJB. It's not feasible. Also, Vegetto in the manga was definitely above regular SSJB Goku, and who knows how be would've fared against M Zamasu, but it doesn't matter, he decided to destroy an immortal being, so even if he was stronger than CSSJB in base he needed to be at a level where he could totally embarrass him and override his immortality. That big blast against Zamasu that destroyed his arm seemed to be him testing the waters on what he needs to do in the battle, and his comments just after confirm such. Also, that was a base Vegetto before taking a senzu and recovering to FP. That Senzu part then must extend to Kefla and make people wonder how powerful she would actually be at FP, as she was made up by a being who was out cold, and a weakened warrior. Pretty scary really.
Last thing i forgot, Daizenshuu from 1995 i remember for a FACT that it had Potara entry and it didnt say what D7 says about potara creatting a stronger warrior.
I believe that was the Daizenshuu 4…Even so it's implied there, as it says the “effect is greater than with fusion. Furthermore the union cannot be cancelled it doesn't have the weakness of running out of time” So the effect that's greater than fusion isn't referring to it being permanent as that's addressed in the sentence immediately following, so honestly it just seems that Daizenshuu 7 clears that part up. Like I pointed out, 7 went into more detail regarding these sort of things. Just read the Kanzenshuu page I linked and you'll understand the different Daizenshuu better.
Message about WSJ article.
Ken Xyro translated the part I'm gonna talk about now by saying “equally good, strongest trump cards” Herms says “equally matched, ultimate trump cards”
And like I pointed out, the techniques aren't equally matched ultimate trump cards, or equally good, strongest trump cards if it's not in regards to power. One technique is clearly superior when it comes to anything outside of power. Potara has ease of use, no failure, and lasts longer. It's not equally matched, I don't know what you aren't understanding? We know as a technique they aren't equally matched because Elder Kaioshin tells us such in the original series, and also the other points I've pointed out. The main term there is equal. nothing can be equal when one clearly outperforms the other in almost every way possible, and the fact the article is comparing the two would mean that the user has both means at their disposal, so the potara then loses the weakness of not having it on hand. Truthfully speaking it's basically impossible to argue that the fusion dance is equal to the Potara solely as a technique. Now in a power sense it's not an issue at all, it would then make sense that they're equally good.
Honestly a technique in DB is probably only seen as useful when it's in regards to power anyway, especially when the form of fusion being used is only to increase your power.
Anyway the article as a whole seems to be talking about Vegetto and Gogeta, the results of the fusions, and not the means to get there (the technique). So the characters Gogeta and Vegetto wouldn't be equal at all if one doesn't stand a chance against a foe the other could defeat.
If this argument continues people need to just realise there isn't enough modern information to pick one over the other. Because truthfully it seems to be cherry picking to get the answer people want to atm. Hell the past information is conflicting anyway. At some point we may get something super concrete from Toriyama, and when we do we'll know for sure because they slap his name on anything he accidentally locks eyes on regarding DB.
