Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well these things weren't actually said in the movie so I wouldn't pay it much mind.

What this all boils done to is Broly is "probably" stronger than Beerus. Was Jiren "probably" stronger than Beerus or was he clearly made out to be? Seems more like the latter.

Full Power Jiren vs Super Saiyan Broly and I'd go with Jiren.

[SaiyanGod117]

In the novel, Frieza said SSJ Broly is the strongest he's ever faced though.

[PFM18]

Well these things weren't actually said in the movie so I wouldn't pay it much mind.

What this all boils done to is Broly is "probably" stronger than Beerus. Was Jiren "probably" stronger than Beerus or was he clearly made out to be? Seems more like the latter.

Full Power Jiren vs Super Saiyan Broly and I'd go with Jiren.

Eventually, when you have several different forms of official material that states Broly>all previous enemies, you have to accept it. And Goku saying "probably" doesn't preclude Broly from being stronger than Jiren, nor does it serve to explicitly contradict anything in the aforementioned promotional material.

[Bullza]

Aside from the book what else suggests it? Just from what was given directly in universe, if Broly is stronger than Jiren then how is he only probably stronger than Beerus?

Wouldn't that also suggest that Jiren is weaker than Beerus despite several different things saying he was stronger than a God of Destruction?

Jiren was a match for a Goku who had mastered Ultra Instinct which Beerus himself had not. Doesn't seem like he'd probably be stronger than Beerus, he almost surely was.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is from /a/ so take it with a grain of salt, but apparently there was a poster at Jump Festa calling Moro the strongest enemy ever. It might end up being true, but it seems to me this sort of statement is just meaningless hype.

[PFM18]

Aside from the book what else suggests it? Just from what was given directly in universe, if Broly is stronger than Jiren then how is he only probably stronger than Beerus?

Wouldn't that also suggest that Jiren is weaker than Beerus despite several different things saying he was stronger than a God of Destruction?

Jiren was a match for a Goku who had mastered Ultra Instinct which Beerus himself had not. Doesn't seem like he'd probably be stronger than Beerus, he almost surely was.

https://imgur.com/gallery/ofL4PiO
"The strongest enemy ever invades Earth"
https://twitter.com/DBSuperFrance/statu ... 3068466177
"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." quote from Saikyo Jump
The title of the trailer where Gogeta and Broly fight is: "Strongest vs strongest"
In the first interview they asked Toriyama about Broly, he says: "There's nothing cooler than being the strongest."
https://imgur.com/gallery/ek0Z4Ne
Goku's caption here, is translated as ""I've never seen such an amazing opponent... S-so strong! Beaten up by the strongest ever, Broly."
Other alternative transalations call it "most powerful in history" rather than "strongest ever."

This is all in addition to the Light Novel explicitly acknowledging Broly as the strongest, too. So that makes six pieces of material that assert that Broly is the strongest foe that Goku has ever fought.

No, it wouldn't necessarily suggest that Jiren is weaker than Beerus, no. You're reading too much into the word "probably" being used.

[Miracles]

And if Broly is stated to be the strongest current foe [which he is due to Dragonball's plot of natural power escalation] by such official statements and Goku can't even tell if this strongest foe ever is stronger than beerus how does all of you guys headcannon match up with Jiren being stronger than Beerus?

The bitterness and jealousy of Beerus...makes one illogical.

[Koitsukai]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

I go with Jiren. The movie failed to sell me Broly as stronger than Jiren (it did sell me a better character) who matched MUI Goku a number of times, and MUI destroys blue fusion and everything but angels in my book, so...

But DB is a never ending retcon, so it shouldn't be a surprise is MUI is stripped of it's singularity and gets left in the dust, so Gotenks Blue can be stronger than MUI Goku or something

[Bullza]

I really don't know how much stock to place in things like magazine scans, we did that with the series too much for its own good and things weren't as they made out to be. Seems like the usual hype comments you'd expect to see to sell the movie.

Because despite all this mentioning of "the strongest", they aren't anyway. They weren't even the strongest in the movie because Whis is in it. You've got another 11 Angels, the Grand Priest and two Zeno as well so they're not nearly the strongest. Goku even fought Whis so how can Broly be his strongest opponent?

So yeah I suppose I second what Koitsukai said, we'll have to see what happens in the near future but for now I still think Ultra Instinct is meant to be on another level like Heroes suggests.

[Hugo Boss]

Is there any card saying Gotenks power but from the Super series?

Exclusively to Super? No. I can only find 3 stickers: Base (3,800), SS (4,800) and SS3 (5,900).

By the way, Maria posted a new set from last month.

The compiled sets (incomplete)
Uchuu set

[Kenneth La Torre]

Doesn't matter where people stand, the subject is very muchiha debatable. Right now no on is right.

However, using heroes to justified your scaling is not a good idea. Especially when in different adaptations you have UI fighting just base cumber, and in others ssj3, yet fusion is able to beat a ssj3 cumber in some, and fight on par with base cumber in others. And Toriyama isn't even involved with that story, that's just how the writers interpret UI and fusion in their story. Same with xenoverse with the ssj4s from GT having statements that put them in God tiers.

I have ssb gogeta at the top (do to how easily he beat broly) and broly above Jiren, but below LB jiren.

If the anime ever adapts the movie, maybe they can fix the scaling.

Also I doubt UI goku is anot entire league above beerus. Pretty sure UI goku vs beerus is gonna be a thing in the future.

[SupremeKai25]

Lol at the writers implying that Jiren and Broly are stronger than Infinite Zamasu. I imagine that he doesn't count since Goku didn't actually face him in battle, he just summoned Zeno and fled, because otherwise I cannot fathom how two mere mortals are much stronger than an astral omnipresent God who was transcending time and space.

[ZombieVito]

Is there any card saying Gotenks power but from the Super series?

Exclusively to Super? No. I can only find 3 stickers: Base (3,800), SS (4,800) and SS3 (5,900).

By the way, Maria posted a new set from last month.

The compiled sets (incomplete)
Uchuu set

Thanks for posting this.

Interesting. Piccolo is at 5,000 for his card based on the ToP arc and base Goku and Vegeta are at 5,200 and 5,100 respectively for the Broly movie.

Another interesting thing is that these cards put SSG Goku and Vegeta > Ikari Broly.

Lol at the writers implying that Jiren and Broly are stronger than Infinite Zamasu. I imagine that he doesn't count since Goku didn't actually face him in battle, he just summoned Zeno and fled, because otherwise I cannot fathom how two mere mortals are much stronger than an astral omnipresent God who was transcending time and space.

Link?

[SupremeKai25]

Link?

https://imgur.com/gallery/ofL4PiO
"The strongest enemy ever invades Earth"
https://twitter.com/DBSuperFrance/statu ... 3068466177
"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." quote from Saikyo Jump
The title of the trailer where Gogeta and Broly fight is: "Strongest vs strongest"
In the first interview they asked Toriyama about Broly, he says: "There's nothing cooler than being the strongest."
https://imgur.com/gallery/ek0Z4Ne
Goku's caption here, is translated as ""I've never seen such an amazing opponent... S-so strong! Beaten up by the strongest ever, Broly."
Other alternative transalations call it "most powerful in history" rather than "strongest ever.

[SaiyanGod117]

Debating DBS power scaling is dumb; these writers never can remain consistent with their dumb lore. Retconning power levels left and right, having numerous characters leapfrogging hundreds to hundreds of thousands of time stronger out of nowhere, or establishing an unintentional trend of throwaway and unsustainable statements as they quickly lose their validity not long after they're stated. Worst of all, the disgusting power creep being the worst it's ever been, it's all just a recipe for disaster.

[Bullza]

Did anyone have interesting to say about Moro while I was away? I wonder if he'll be more powerful than Broly or Jiren.

[SaiyanGod117]

I'm pretty sure if he gets his magic power he will be, DB is all about linear progression- the next villain being stronger than the last.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Did anyone have interesting to say about Moro while I was away? I wonder if he'll be more powerful than Broly or Jiren.

Most likely will be, as the next villian is always stronger than the last, with toriyamas cat being the only exception.

[Bullza]

Perhaps but that doesn't seem like as much of a sure thing as it did back in Z.

First we had Beerus, then we had Frieza who was weaker than him, then we had Hit who had a good chance of being weaker than he was and only came through because of his gimmick, then there was Goku Black who was at least even weaker still at the beginning, Jiren was a lot stronger, Broly...could go either way but I generally seem to see more comments about him being weaker.

So he could be like Hit where it wouldn't be his power that would be the problem so much as his gimmick.

[dragon boss z]

Debating DBS power scaling is dumb; these writers never can remain consistent with their dumb lore. Retconning power levels left and right, having numerous characters leapfrogging hundreds to hundreds of thousands of time stronger out of nowhere, or establishing an unintentional trend of throwaway and unsustainable statements as they quickly lose their validity not long after they're stated. Worst of all, the disgusting power creep being the worst it's ever been, it's all just a recipe for disaster.

Probably the truest thing said here in a while, lmao.
It’s probably because the episode writers put their own input and how they want the power to be like, and then the next guy has a different vision, leading to inconsistencies. But they we have Toyotaro pulling a similar stunt even though he is the only writer of the manga, not counting Toriyama’s input. He made ssj3 Goku even with Trunks, who was weaker than base Black, but then had SSJ2 Vegeta beat ssj Black, not sure why he thought that made sense. He has been better with power creep, but then he threw that away with Roshi fighting Jiren.