Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

[Bullza]

It's what the highest authority, Toriyama told the animation supervisor

Which is completely meaningless, it has no bearing on any official material that's been released, it was an old behind the scenes comment and nothing more. Even comments that are made in actual interviews hold little merit, this is someone who said that you can't become a Kaioshin, you just get born as one....then it turned out you can become a Kaioshin by being given a green Potara.

If it's not something that was actually said in the movie or series itself then it doesn't matter.

Your headcannon isn't going to change the fact that the plot said Beerus trains.

I never said that he didn't train period. I said how does a being who has lived for a couple million years obtain power that isn't even double that of Super Saiyan God and then with one or two more years he's now stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20...

So he grew exponentially more powerful in two years than he did in two hundred million years? Not even that because he slept for a good few months when Goku and Vegeta were training there.

No, power escalation is always in full force in Dragonball.

Right so that applies to Super Saiyan God as well. That forms strength escalated along with Goku's strength just as Fusion and everything else. Fusion didn't grow and Super Saiyan God stay the same.

Current Base Goku fusing with Base Vegeta creates a stronger boost than him currently turning Super Saiyan God. Therefore previously, fusing with Base Vegeta should be creating a stronger boost than him previously turning into a Super Saiyan God.

[Miracles]

Which is completely meaningless, it has no bearing on any official material that's been released, it was an old behind the scenes comment and nothing more. Even comments that are made in actual interviews hold little merit, this is someone who said that you can't become a Kaioshin, you just get born as one....then it turned out you can become a Kaioshin by being given a green Potara.

If it's not something that was actually said in the movie or series itself then it doesn't matter.

Trying to dismiss Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god's power when making BOG to the Animation Supervisor as "meaningless" is not good enough. You Got to give some substance.

I never said that he didn't train period. I said how does a being who has lived for a couple million years obtain power that isn't even double that of Super Saiyan God and then with one or two more years he's now stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20...

So he grew exponentially more powerful in two years than he did in two hundred million years? Not even that because he slept for a good few months when Goku and Vegeta were training there.

The point is the 70% power in BOG mattered and Beerus grows through training. Regardless of what you assume. It doesn't change the facts that Beerus grows.

No, power escalation is always in full force in Dragonball.

Right so that applies to Super Saiyan God as well. That forms strength escalated along with Goku's strength just as Fusion and everything else. Fusion didn't grow and Super Saiyan God stay the same.

Current Base Goku fusing with Base Vegeta creates a stronger boost than him currently turning Super Saiyan God. Therefore previously, fusing with Base Vegeta should be creating a stronger boost than him previously turning into a Super Saiyan God.

No, cause Goku and Vegeta didn't have the power level around god back in BOG. Your example defeats your point.

[p-hyvo]

Base Gotenks is demonstrably stronger than SSJ Goten/SSJ Trunks. That's not really disputable.

It is actually. He can't be stronger than the Super Saiyan kids in base since a lot of things point to his own Super Saiyan being weaker than Boo and SS2 Goku/Vegeta.

Daizenshuu.
2008 special.
Battle of Gods.
Resurrection F.

All of them state or imply that Boo/SS2 Goku/SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks.

Let's analize

Daizenshuu : wrong things are more than the right ones there, even if it is an official guide.

2008 special : it is post buu saga, so goku/ Vegeta are post fusion and they are stronger than gotenks in base

Battle of gods : same thing

Resurrection of f : same again

Try to find proofs in buu saga of what you are saying.
Spoiler : you can't. Buu saga points out the strength of gotenks, and it makes sense to be stronger than ssj kids in base. The thing is even highlighted

[Hugo Boss]

Daizenshuu : wrong things are more than the right ones there, even if it is an official guide.

How exactly you came to this conclusion?

[p-hyvo]

Daizenshuu : wrong things are more than the right ones there, even if it is an official guide.

How exactly you came to this conclusion?

I think that what's written there is stated without a lot of attention.
The only things I buy from there are goku at 3'000'000 , freezer at 120'000'000 and Vegeta at 2'400'000.

All the other things, in my opinion, or are altreafy stated in the manga or contradicts it one way or another. For example, right in he case of gotenks they made a lot of confusion talking about he's strength in daizenshuu, meanwhile in the many a is quite clear how strong he is. And daizenshuu, in that case, straight contradicts the manga

[Hugo Boss]

Daizenshuu : wrong things are more than the right ones there, even if it is an official guide.

How exactly you came to this conclusion?

I think that what's written there is stated without a lot of attention.
The only things I buy from there are goku at 3'000'000 , freezer at 120'000'000 and Vegeta at 2'400'000.

All the other things, in my opinion, or are altreafy stated in the manga or contradicts it one way or another. For example, right in he case of gotenks they made a lot of confusion talking about he's strength in daizenshuu, meanwhile in the many a is quite clear how strong he is. And daizenshuu, in that case, straight contradicts the manga

Daizenshuu guides never assembled a powerlevel of 2.4 million to Vegeta. For the rest of your post, that’s entirely subjective. I’m actually waiting for evidence that they put more errors than correct information.

[p-hyvo]

How exactly you came to this conclusion?

I think that what's written there is stated without a lot of attention.
The only things I buy from there are goku at 3'000'000 , freezer at 120'000'000 and Vegeta at 2'400'000.

All the other things, in my opinion, or are altreafy stated in the manga or contradicts it one way or another. For example, right in he case of gotenks they made a lot of confusion talking about he's strength in daizenshuu, meanwhile in the many a is quite clear how strong he is. And daizenshuu, in that case, straight contradicts the manga

Daizenshuu guides never assembled a powerlevel of 2.4 million to Vegeta. For the rest of your post, that’s entirely subjective. I’m actually waiting for evidence that they put more errors than correct information.

Of course Is subjective.that's my point of view.
Answering you, I could give an example in gotenks or in potara's multiplier.
Daizenshuu speaks about gotenks in a confusing way, saying obvious things that got misinterpreted a lot.
And, about potaras, well, I think that isn't even to explain and you can get why is wrong by yourself

[Bullza]

Trying to dismiss Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god's power when making BOG to the Animation Supervisor as "meaningless" is not good enough. You Got to give some substance.

It's not substantial enough for to to to be dismissed in the first place. It wasn't a statement, he never said this in any interview that went to print nor something that was written into the movie not part of any marketing either.

It was a note to a colleague.

The point is the 70% power in BOG mattered and Beerus grows through training. Regardless of what you assume. It doesn't change the facts that Beerus grows.

Again not what I'm saying it asking. Did the couple hundred million year old Beerus grow from requiring 70% of his power to beat Super Saiyan God Goku to being over times as Tring as Super Saiyan Blue Goku in less than two years?

Did he or not?

No, cause Goku and Vegeta didn't have the power level around god back in BOG. Your example defeats your point.

You're still not getting what I'm trying to say so we'll just leave this part alone.

[Miracles]

Trying to dismiss Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god's power when making BOG to the Animation Supervisor as "meaningless" is not good enough. You Got to give some substance.

It's not substantial enough for to to to be dismissed in the first place. It wasn't a statement, he never said this in any interview that went to print nor something that was written into the movie not part of any marketing either.

It was a note to a colleague.

The point is the 70% power in BOG mattered and Beerus grows through training. Regardless of what you assume. It doesn't change the facts that Beerus grows.

Again not what I'm saying it asking. Did the couple hundred million year old Beerus grow from requiring 70% of his power to beat Super Saiyan God Goku to being over times as Tring as Super Saiyan Blue Goku in less than two years?

Did he or not?

No, cause Goku and Vegeta didn't have the power level around god back in BOG. Your example defeats your point.

You're still not getting what I'm trying to say so we'll just leave this part alone.

No, you just don't want to admit you were wrong with all your head story. The actual story never stated god was permanently greater than fusion. That was only back in BOG. You saying base Kefla/Gogeta being stronger than god later still doesn't negate BOG's canon story about god being greater than fusion back then. Your question about Beerus is irrelevant since that wasn't the original point of contention. You claimed 70% Beerus back in BOG was meaningless and it's not. The same way you are trying to ignore Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god cause it doesn't fit your headcannon. Just cause you feel a certain way means absolutely nothing and does not change the established facts.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that what's written there is stated without a lot of attention.
The only things I buy from there are goku at 3'000'000 , freezer at 120'000'000 and Vegeta at 2'400'000.

All the other things, in my opinion, or are altreafy stated in the manga or contradicts it one way or another. For example, right in he case of gotenks they made a lot of confusion talking about he's strength in daizenshuu, meanwhile in the many a is quite clear how strong he is. And daizenshuu, in that case, straight contradicts the manga

Daizenshuu guides never assembled a powerlevel of 2.4 million to Vegeta. For the rest of your post, that’s entirely subjective. I’m actually waiting for evidence that they put more errors than correct information.

Of course Is subjective.that's my point of view.
Answering you, I could give an example in gotenks or in potara's multiplier.
Daizenshuu speaks about gotenks in a confusing way, saying obvious things that got misinterpreted a lot.
And, about potaras, well, I think that isn't even to explain and you can get why is wrong by yourself

Those are 2 examples you came up, which I don’t understand what exactly is wrong, but this is as far as you justify your opinion... What about the rest of all 7 guidebooks?!

[Bullza]

No, you just don't want to admit you were wrong with all your head story. The actual story never stated god was permanently greater than fusion. That was only back in BOG.

I never said it was right or wrong and never gave any head canon. They never said that in Battle of Gods. Absolutely nothing in that movie said God was greater than Fusion. An assumption can be made based on the narrative where you are led to believe it would be better but all there is to it, an assumption.

Current material shows Fusion is greater than God and this may have all always applied after all.

You claimed 70% Beerus back in BOG was meaningless and it's not. The same way you are trying to ignore Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god cause it doesn't fit your headcannon.

Toriyama never made any statement. Beerus using 70% of his power in Battle of Gods accounts for that movie but that line of dialogue and Toriyama saying he is a 10 to Goku being a 6 is meaningless now because we know it isn't true.

[Miracles]

No, you just don't want to admit you were wrong with all your head story. The actual story never stated god was permanently greater than fusion. That was only back in BOG.

I never said it was right or wrong and never gave any head canon. They never said that in Battle of Gods. Absolutely nothing in that movie said God was greater than Fusion. An assumption can be made based on the narrative where you are led to believe it would be better but all there is to it, an assumption.

Current material shows Fusion is greater than God and this may have all always applied after all.

You claimed 70% Beerus back in BOG was meaningless and it's not. The same way you are trying to ignore Toriyama's statement about Super Saiyan god cause it doesn't fit your headcannon.

Toriyama never made any statement. Beerus using 70% of his power in Battle of Gods accounts for that movie but that line of dialogue and Toriyama saying he is a 10 to Goku being a 6 is meaningless now because we know it isn't true.

Toriyama giving those numbers of comparison by no means negates Beerus using nearly 70% in BOG. Just like Yamammuro quoting Toriyama , about the roughs for Super Saiyan god. Since Toriyama told him "God surpasses everything" he tried to draw a sturdy; buff looking design, based on that description of god's power from Toriyama. Just like BOG outright states through the oracle fish that only Super Saiyan god will rival Beerus, not fusion. Even a fusion in Gotenks was stated to be "no match" for Beerus and was absolutely pwned. The story outright stated only god will amuse Beerus, not fusion. Yes, it is your headcannon to try and assume fusion > god back then based on showings later.

[Bullza]

Toriyama giving those numbers of comparison by no means negates Beerus using nearly 70% in BOG.

Oh he definitely did use 70% of his power in Battle of Gods. That was correct for that time, it is no longer correct or consistent with the information we have now though.

Just like BOG outright states through the oracle fish that only Super Saiyan god will rival Beerus, not fusion.

No not quite. Beerus said he'd had a dream where he fought a Super Saiyan God who looked like Goku. He goes to the fish and says that he was told that in 39 years time an arch rival of his would appear, the fish says that he guess he told him that and then Beerus says that he will arrive soon and he will be a Super Saiyan God.

They didn't say that "only" that could rival him, just that that is what was going to appear and rival him which is what happened. That doesn't mean that Fusion couldn't have rivalled him to some extent especially with some things we know now.

[Miracles]

Toriyama giving those numbers of comparison by no means negates Beerus using nearly 70% in BOG.

Oh he definitely did use 70% of his power in Battle of Gods. That was correct for that time, it is no longer correct or consistent with the information we have now though.

Just like BOG outright states through the oracle fish that only Super Saiyan god will rival Beerus, not fusion.

No not quite. Beerus said he'd had a dream where he fought a Super Saiyan God who looked like Goku. He goes to the fish and says that he was told that in 39 years time an arch rival of his would appear, the fish says that he guess he told him that and then Beerus says that he will arrive soon and he will be a Super Saiyan God.

They didn't say that "only" that could rival him, just that that is what was going to appear and rival him which is what happened. That doesn't mean that Fusion couldn't have rivalled him to some extent especially with some things we know now.

When I say the word "only" rival to Beerus that means fusion was not among the candidates to give Beerus some competition. That is factual. Not that the word "only" was used verbatim. You saying Beerus 70% claim not mattering is headcannnomn cause nothing contradicts it.

[p-hyvo]

Daizenshuu guides never assembled a powerlevel of 2.4 million to Vegeta. For the rest of your post, that’s entirely subjective. I’m actually waiting for evidence that they put more errors than correct information.

Of course Is subjective.that's my point of view.
Answering you, I could give an example in gotenks or in potara's multiplier.
Daizenshuu speaks about gotenks in a confusing way, saying obvious things that got misinterpreted a lot.
And, about potaras, well, I think that isn't even to explain and you can get why is wrong by yourself

Those are 2 examples you came up, which I don’t understand what exactly is wrong, but this is as far as you justify your opinion... What about the rest of all 7 guidebooks?!

With daizenshuu i was referring only to daizenshuu 7 specifically.sorry for misunderstandings.
Lemme explain :

Gotenks is present d in a way that implies that only post rosat he has surpassed majin Vegeta, while the manga strongly implies that ssj gotenks present train > ssj3 goku.
That thing has confused a lot of people and I hate it.

Potara with an axb multiplier, well... It is just wrong. It flat out contradicts everything, from the other guides to the manga itself. It is just not like this logilally

[Bullza]

When I say the word "only" rival to Beerus that means fusion was not among the candidates to give Beerus some competition. That is factual. Not that the word "only" was used verbatim.

No that's not factual at all. Beerus had a dream of him fighting Super Saiyan God Goku, the Oracle Fish told him that an arch rival of his would appear in 39 years, the events then unfolded as the dream and prophecy had suggested. That doesn't mean that Fusion couldn't have put up a better or worse fight, that was not the dream.

You saying Beerus 70% claim not mattering is headcannnomn cause nothing contradicts it.

Then why aren't answering what I asked you? Did the couple hundred million year old Beerus go from requiring 70% of his power to defeat Super Saiyan God Goku to being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 in two years of which included several months worth of sleep?

Yes or no? Did his strength multiply many times over or didn't it?

[Hugo Boss]

With daizenshuu i was referring only to daizenshuu 7 specifically.sorry for misunderstandings.
Lemme explain :

Gotenks is present d in a way that implies that only post rosat he has surpassed majin Vegeta, while the manga strongly implies that ssj gotenks present train > ssj3 goku.
That thing has confused a lot of people and I hate it.

Potara with an axb multiplier, well... It is just wrong. It flat out contradicts everything, from the other guides to the manga itself. It is just not like this logilally

A error in one of those books wouldn’t compromise all the work, that’s the point. Anyway, you are pointing out a tidbit you simply don’t agree with, it’s not a error. And Daizenshuu also never assembled a multiplier for fusions in general, you must have been confusing with the Super Exciting Guides, which are not related.

[p-hyvo]

With daizenshuu i was referring only to daizenshuu 7 specifically.sorry for misunderstandings.
Lemme explain :

Gotenks is present d in a way that implies that only post rosat he has surpassed majin Vegeta, while the manga strongly implies that ssj gotenks present train > ssj3 goku.
That thing has confused a lot of people and I hate it.

Potara with an axb multiplier, well... It is just wrong. It flat out contradicts everything, from the other guides to the manga itself. It is just not like this logilally

A error in one of those books wouldn’t compromise all the work, that’s the point. Anyway, you are pointing out a tidbit you simply don’t agree with, it’s not a error. And Daizenshuu also never assembled a multiplier for fusions in general, you must have been confusing with the Super Exciting Guides, which are not related.

Wait, potara's multiplier wasn't in daizenshuu 7 together with ssj's multiplier?

[Miracles]

When I say the word "only" rival to Beerus that means fusion was not among the candidates to give Beerus some competition. That is factual. Not that the word "only" was used verbatim.

No that's not factual at all. Beerus had a dream of him fighting Super Saiyan God Goku, the Oracle Fish told him that an arch rival of his would appear in 39 years, the events then unfolded as the dream and prophecy had suggested. That doesn't mean that Fusion couldn't have put up a better or worse fight, that was not the dream.

The dream was only Super Saiyan god would be able to amuse Beerus, nothing else.

You saying Beerus 70% claim not mattering is headcannnomn cause nothing contradicts it.

Then why aren't answering what I asked you? Did the couple hundred million year old Beerus go from requiring 70% of his power to defeat Super Saiyan God Goku to being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 in two years of which included several months worth of sleep?

Yes or no? Did his strength multiply many times over or didn't it?

Your question is irrelevant concerning the facts.

[Hugo Boss]

Wait, potara's multiplier wasn't in daizenshuu 7 together with ssj's multiplier?

No. Daizenshuu 7 assembled powerlevels but not multipliers. Super Exciting Guides are the source for the multipliers. The old 50-fold Super Saiyan boost doesn’t come from Daizenshuu books too. I assume the newer SEG simply took the powerlevel of Super Saiyan Goku and Base Goku and divided, thus implying a 50-fold boost.