Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

I really don't know how much stock to place in things like magazine scans, we did that with the series too much for its own good and things weren't as they made out to be. Seems like the usual hype comments you'd expect to see to sell the movie.

Because despite all this mentioning of "the strongest", they aren't anyway. They weren't even the strongest in the movie because Whis is in it. You've got another 11 Angels, the Grand Priest and two Zeno as well so they're not nearly the strongest. Goku even fought Whis so how can Broly be his strongest opponent?

So yeah I suppose I second what Koitsukai said, we'll have to see what happens in the near future but for now I still think Ultra Instinct is meant to be on another level like Heroes suggests.

You don't think any of these several sources consulted the director of the and/or Toriyama? How did we do this too much before?

The "strongest" in this context is specifically referred to as the "strongest foe" and simply abbreviated in other instances to "strongest." Whis was never his foe or his enemy, so he doesn't apply. Broly is simply the strongest person Goku has ever fought in a hostile context. You can debate whether Beerus or Jiren are stronger now, but it's clear that Broly stands at the top.

[SaiyanGod117]

Debating DBS power scaling is dumb; these writers never can remain consistent with their dumb lore. Retconning power levels left and right, having numerous characters leapfrogging hundreds to hundreds of thousands of time stronger out of nowhere, or establishing an unintentional trend of throwaway and unsustainable statements as they quickly lose their validity not long after they're stated. Worst of all, the disgusting power creep being the worst it's ever been, it's all just a recipe for disaster.

Probably the truest thing said here in a while, lmao.
It’s probably because the episode writers put their own input and how they want the power to be like, and then the next guy has a different vision, leading to inconsistencies. But they we have Toyotaro pulling a similar stunt even though he is the only writer of the manga, not counting Toriyama’s input. He made ssj3 Goku even with Trunks, who was weaker than base Black, but then had SSJ2 Vegeta beat ssj Black, not sure why he thought that made sense. He has been better with power creep, but then he threw that away with Roshi fighting Jiren.

Next series, a writers union/block/group or whatever it's called needs to established; as well as, a cap on how strong or big of a boost certain characters can get.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Knowing how the movie structured the progression of forms and Broly in comparison to them with his own, what do people think about the strength of the relevant base Saiyans like Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan, Future Trunks, Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale?

Have people changed their view on how strong base Goku and Vegeta are, or has Broly merely cemented your preconceptions?

Personally, the Broly movie solidified my belief that base Goku, Vegeta, and similarly strong Saiyans are about the level of Majin Buu in base form.

[Hugo Boss]

Personally, the Broly movie solidified my belief that base Goku, Vegeta, and similarly strong Saiyans are about the level of Majin Buu in base form.

How so? I just remember Goku spared with Boo and lost their match in the anime.

[dragon boss z]

Knowing how the movie structured the progression of forms and Broly in comparison to them with his own, what do people think about the strength of the relevant base Saiyans like Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan, Future Trunks, Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale?
Have people changed their view on how strong base Goku and Vegeta are, or has Broly merely cemented your preconceptions?
Personally, the Broly movie solidified my belief that base Goku, Vegeta, and similarly strong Saiyans are about the level of Majin Buu in base form.

Imo
base Kale (anime)<base Cabba<base Caulifla<Buu<base Goku/Vegeta<=>final form Frieza (manga)<=ssj Cabba<ssj Caulifla<base Kale (manga)<final form Frieza (anime)<ssj Goku/Vegeta<=base Broly

Reasons:
Kale is clearly the weakest in the anime, Caulifla is portrayed as stronger than Cabba and beats him up in the manga until he goes ssj, Buu still has better feats than base Caulifla imo, base Goku and Vegeta fought post training Frieza and Broly and with the god boost they are above ssj3 tier, final form Frieza is the manga beat up base Caulifla easily, but seemed to be losing to ssj Caulifla however he did seem to be much closer to her ssj than her base, ssj Cabba should be weaker than Caulifla so probably around manga Frieza level, base Kale in the manga was stated to hit harder than ssj Caulifla, final form Frieza in the anime was able to match Dyspo's speed who was able to blitz Hit, ssj Goku was stated to be around SSG level back in BoG, and he proves his ssj form can fight on a god level again by fighting rage Broly who was just fighting evenly with SSG Vegeta, and base Broly is the highest due to seemingly having the power advantage over ssj Vegeta, though Goku and Vegeta could arguably win in their ssj form considering how good ssj Goku did against a stronger version of Broly.

[Bullza]

You don't think any of these several sources consulted the director of the and/or Toriyama? How did we do this too much before?

I wouldn't have said so, it's a hype line to get people to want to see the movie. I doubt that magazine that says the strongest enemy ever invades Earth went through the process of finding out from Toriyama whether he was or wasn't stronger than Jiren before including it. Saying the second strongest enemy ever doesn't have the same ring to it.

What's said in the movie directly, being written by Toriyama should come first and they didn't say anything like that. All they said was that he was probably stronger than Beerus and Jiren was definitely stronger than him.

Depending on how much stronger Goku and Vegeta got, which isn't that clear, Broly could be closer to Merged Zamasu than Jiren.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is an official product from Toei and in their mind Ultra Instinct is on a whole other level from any Fusion.

[shadd21]

How strong in Champa compared to Belmont, Beerus, Jiren, and UI Goku?

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong in Champa compared to Belmont, Beerus, Jiren, and UI Goku?

Should be somewhat comparable to Beerus and Belmod, nothing compared to Goku and Jiren.

[dragon boss z]

How strong in Champa compared to Belmont, Beerus, Jiren, and UI Goku?

Should be somewhat comparable to Beerus and Belmod, nothing compared to Goku and Jiren.

How can he be comparable to Beerus but be nothing compared to Goku and Jiren? The Broly movie implies Broly at full power might be stronger than Beerus, whould would imply it's probably close, and multiple sources imply Broly is the strongest enemy yet. I could see Jiren being a bit stronger than Broly, but Champa should still be comparable to him, if he really is comparable to Beerus.

[PFM18]

I wouldn't have said so, it's a hype line to get people to want to see the movie. I doubt that magazine that says the strongest enemy ever invades Earth went through the process of finding out from Toriyama whether he was or wasn't stronger than Jiren before including it. Saying the second strongest enemy ever doesn't have the same ring to it.

So all six of these sources, just used that phrasing for the sake of hype? That's ridiculous. They didn't need to have some line in other material in order to sell the movie, next to none of the friends I know that went to see the movie even know of any outside source referring to that. Appealing to hardcore fans like us that care this much about power scaling isn't going to spike their sales in the slightest.

No, this is clearly a narrative that this is creating throughout the material supplementing the movie. They are emphasizing that Broly is the strongest yet. I could dismiss it if there was just one thing implying it, but again, we have six different sources that cite such a thing. Given Toriyama's involvement in this movie, I find it extremely hard to believe that none of these items consulted Toriyama before writing it. If they were concerned with calling him the "second strongest enemy" They could have just kept with the narrative that "is he stronger than a God of Destruction?" Or something along those lines. That would serve the same purpose, and again only a small portion of the fans that saw this movie are even aware of these things stating Broly's superiority.

What's said in the movie directly, being written by Toriyama should come first and they didn't say anything like that. All they said was that he was probably stronger than Beerus and Jiren was definitely stronger than him.

You're dismissing all of these other sources, all because the word "probably" was used instead of "definitely." I think that is just simply putting too much stock into a simple word. It isn't as though it said something like "You're almost as strong as Beerus!" He expressed with a level of certainty that Broly is stronger than Beerus. Conversely, there's exactly 0 explicit statements comparing Beerus and Jiren in either the anime or the manga, so we can't say "definitely" either. We have several implications, but nothing concrete in Jiren's favor.

Depending on how much stronger Goku and Vegeta got, which isn't that clear, Broly could be closer to Merged Zamasu than Jiren.

Considering he's stated to be the strongest enemy Goku has ever faced and he really has to be 1,000+ times stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku and Vegeta, I find that extremely hard to believe. Based on what we see in this movie, he literally needs to be over a thousand times stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta at their max power for this to make sense. Again, we can't say such a thing for Jiren.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is an official product from Toei and in their mind Ultra Instinct is on a whole other level from any Fusion.

You can't just lump both of them in under the "Toei" umbrella. They are completely different products with completely different production who I'm sure have different writers, Heroes isn't assisted by Toriyama, and it simply isn't part of the main continuity or a main product but rather it just serves to promote a game. Not comparable at all.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong in Champa compared to Belmont, Beerus, Jiren, and UI Goku?

Should be somewhat comparable to Beerus and Belmod, nothing compared to Goku and Jiren.

How can he be comparable to Beerus but be nothing compared to Goku and Jiren? The Broly movie implies Broly at full power might be stronger than Beerus, whould would imply it's probably close, and multiple sources imply Broly is the strongest enemy yet. I could see Jiren being a bit stronger than Broly, but Champa should still be comparable to him, if he really is comparable to Beerus.

I don't believe in those lines. There's nothing to suggest that Belmod is for some reason far weaker than the other Gods.

[dragon boss z]

Should be somewhat comparable to Beerus and Belmod, nothing compared to Goku and Jiren.

How can he be comparable to Beerus but be nothing compared to Goku and Jiren? The Broly movie implies Broly at full power might be stronger than Beerus, whould would imply it's probably close, and multiple sources imply Broly is the strongest enemy yet. I could see Jiren being a bit stronger than Broly, but Champa should still be comparable to him, if he really is comparable to Beerus.

I don't believe in those lines. There's nothing to suggest that Belmod is for some reason far weaker than the other Gods.

What? I never said he was. Jiren was stated to be stronger than Belmod in the manga, but for all we know it could be by 5%. And he said it was his power level that was higher, for all we know Belmod would still win with techniques.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How can he be comparable to Beerus but be nothing compared to Goku and Jiren? The Broly movie implies Broly at full power might be stronger than Beerus, whould would imply it's probably close, and multiple sources imply Broly is the strongest enemy yet. I could see Jiren being a bit stronger than Broly, but Champa should still be comparable to him, if he really is comparable to Beerus.

I don't believe in those lines. There's nothing to suggest that Belmod is for some reason far weaker than the other Gods.

What? I never said he was. Jiren was stated to be stronger than Belmod in the manga, but for all we know it could be by 5%. And he said it was his power level that was higher, for all we know Belmod would still win with techniques.

Manga Jiren never broke his limits, Anime Jiren did and became far stronger than his full power which already outclassed Belmod.

[Bullza]

So all six of these sources, just used that phrasing for the sake of hype?

Not all, just the ones involving promotion for the movie because that's what they're meant to be doing, hyping up the characters to get people to go see the movie first and foremost rather than be consistent with any kind of in universe power scaling. So what's that four of them? Which leaves the one from the book...what was the other one?

I think that is just simply putting too much stock into a simple word.

Well that is the most important one of them all because this was written by Toriyama himself for the movie, it exists within the actual material. It's not written by someone else for some magazine trying to promote a movie.

They didn't say he was stronger than Beerus but that he probably was so he might probably not be as well. It's kinda like the manga making a similar comment about Super Saiyan Blue Vegito being stronger than Beerus and then Toyotaro saying he was unsure who was stronger when he was asked which implies they were similar.

I suppose we don't know how strong Jiren is exactly compared to Beerus but Whis did say that there was a mortal that even a God of Destruction couldn't defeat. Not probably couldn't, just couldn't and that was without his power at the very end as well.

Jiren did match Ultra Instinct Goku who had himself mastered a power than even Beerus had not. It just doesn't seem like he would be as close to Beerus as Broly was maybe implied to be.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Didn't something recently suggest that Vegito and Gogeta had the same strength? Merged Zamasu wasn't really all that far off from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and I suppose Broly wasn't all that far off from Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta.

So unless Goku and Vegeta became dramatically more powerful since the Future Trunks saga and people seem to be a bit back and forth on that, then there shouldn't be a vast amount in it.

You can't just lump both of them in under the "Toei" umbrella.

Different writers and people are involved but it's all about the intent I guess. At least as far as that aspect of the franchise is concerned, Ultra Instinct is way more powerful than Fusion, both in the anime and the manga.

It would seem unlikely that another aspect of the series would then go the opposite route. Do we not believe anymore that Ultra Instinct Goku would be above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito? Because he should be because he was handling Jiren far easier than Vegito was handling the weaker Zamasu.

I also think if it was intended to be weaker then it would have been used in the movie. That they purposefully teased and didn't use it makes me think it's been saved for something more significant later on. That it'll make its return when someone even be more powerful than Broly shows up.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From what I've seen, and not what I heard about the magazine promotional stuff and whatnot, Broly does look like he's around the level that SSB Gogeta would've been at at an earlier point in DBS's run, like SSB Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc, where he's a bit above the Hakaishin but not by a significant margin.

Jiren, however, displayed himself more along the likes of SSB Gogeta to me, above the level of Hakaishin by a good margin, at least when unleashing his hidden power against Ultra Instinct Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

This is my honest opinion, what I see as watching the movie without going by promotional material.

Broly is definitely at least jiren / UI omen level for goku to comment as such, however, it's unknown if he is actually on MUI/LB jiren level, since we still don't know how beerus compares to goku and jiron at their strongest. I definitely don't we beerus that far below UI since I believe he will have a match with goku in said form. However, SSB Gogeta definitely is on MUI level do to how he treated a hakaishin+ level foe.

No one is right as of now since nothing in the series itself have statements outright stating where these top tiers stand. The only thing we know here is that FPSSJ Broly, SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku and Jiren prove how insanely strong beerus is compared to regular ssblues. The gap is just too huge.

[Koitsukai]

Me too, I don't take seriously promotional material, Titanic had taglines such as "greatest ship ever built" and not even back then it was a unique ship. Only the movie I take to heart, and not by dialogue or by feats was clearly stated than Broly>Jiren, not one line was said regarding how strong Broly's attacks were, only in some novel made NOT by Toriyama, why would I value that more than Toriyama's product itself? wasn't the movie the main dish? 8 months waiting for it to end up reading and prioritizing a novel? they should've sold them together with the movie ticket then.
It seems to be done purposely to keep things unclear or to give themselves some leeway to make a definite comparison or change it in the future. Also Broly can still grow much, much stronger.

Gogeta Blue beat Broly with a little more effort than shiney MUI Goku did to still dressed Jiren. I would say FPSS Broly is somewhat above 3rd Omen Goku and Jiren before breaking his limits, and that's it. Jiren then goes to match a technique taught by angels to hakaishins, and not even they can master it. He closes a gigantic gap and actually takes the lead for a while, Broly was never even close to shutting down that gap. I place MUI above Gogeta, but if they are equals, then Jiren matched that power and Broly was not even close.

Sure, they can still make Beerus stronger than Moro, Broly, Jiren, Gogeta and MUI, and probably will, but Beerus-Jiren-MUI has been discussed enough.

[Green]

This is what we know in my opinion:

- Jiren is stronger than Belmod (stated in both anime and manga, very likely part of Toriyama's outline)
- UI isn't that much stronger than Jiren. They have a close fight in both anime and manga. Heck, in the latter Jiren outlasts Goku.
- Broly is probably stronger than Beerus, just like Vegetto is said to be in the manga.
- Gogeta is way stronger than Broly.

No comparison between Jiren and Beerus is ever made, nor between Goku and Beerus expect in that magazine where the latter says, referring to UI: "He might have surpassed me" or something along those lines. We also have to consider that Jiren only gains his PTSD boost in the anime, it could be possible that in Toriyama's view he's inferior to Broly because he didn't come up with such powerup.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It's only a matter of time before this is resolved.
Maybe an anime adaptation will clear things out.
The only one I place at solid MUI levels is SSB Gogeta, I have broly between jiren and LB jiren.

Btw, if people here honestly think UI goku can just stomp beerus, then you will all be disappointed once the inevitable UI Goku vs beerus fight happens. That fight will not be a stomp on either ones favor.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We already know how the Gods of Destruction stand compared to the upper echelon of the TOP. Jiren is stated to be stronger. He was portrayed as stronger than them ever since his first fight with Goku. Goku under UI's power far surpasses them. Call it "Toei bloat" if you want. Even Vegeta defeated a God of Destruction and he's only equal to Goku using SSB Kaioken.

The level of God of Destruction would only be relevant to those as strong as SSJG and Blue. Anything higher eclipses them.

The Limit Breaker song for the show when the TOP was airing made this even more obvious.

Spoiler:

“Even the god of destruction appears puny.”

And KenXyro supposedly translated it as:
“Even the gods of destruction will seem insignificant or weak (Puny).”

So no, the Gods of Destruction are absolutely not meant to be seen as untouchable or as some "moving goalpost". They were surpassed and to such an extreme degree that they can't compete.