Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

According to the promotional material and Freeza in the novel, Broly is the strongest dude ever. I don't really buy it, though. To me, Jiren is clearly superior.

What’s there not to buy? There isn’t anything not to buy here. These are statements from OFFICIAL sources. SIX different pieces of statements IN FAVOR of Broly. Combine that with the fact that Broly is a Saiyan with infinite growth and on-the-spot zenkais, than there’s simply no room for debate and doubt here. You’re literally arguing against the creator’s mouth. Broly>>>>Jiren.

[Bullza]

I saw him merely knowing how to channel that immense power. Not everything's a matter of strength, after all.

Well first he channeled his own power into the hilt of his broken sword which created the golden energy sword.

Then he jumps into the sky and the spirit bomb absorbs into his body and he has that blue aura. Then he channels that power into a larger more powerful sword.

So ideally even without the sword he should be far more powerful than before. Basically the difference in his power between the Gold and Spirit sword.

[Hugo Boss]

Where do people rank Trunks with the Spirit Sword compared to the rest of the cast?

I have him on par with Zamas.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Let's stray off of jiren to broly comparisons as there is no certain answer for that, and let's talk about the elephant in the movie. Gogeta, and the obvious (no debate there) retcon his multiplier got. "Dozens of times" my butt. If this multiplier was the same for his appearance in fusion reborn, he would have finger flicked janemba to death...in just his base. Honestly, this is a multiplier that not even I had for potara. Besides toppo and ssj2 kefla, Base gogeta could have ended anyone in the tournament of power. Ssj would take care of anyone not named jiren.

Honestly speaking, what did you people have fusion be before this movie? I had it at 100x the individuals.

[ZombieVito]

Where do people rank Trunks with the Spirit Sword compared to the rest of the cast?

Depends entirely if Zamasu was losing power or not.

If he was then Trunks is just moderately stronger. If not then he's stronger than most GoD's.

[Bullza]

So why does Fused Zamasu come across as so weak? I'm not talking about the Half Corrupted form because that wasn't even his own power, most of that came from the rift.

Just his own power, logically you'd think he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta considering that Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is far more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku and Zamasu is probably at least on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta.

But he doesn't seem like it. He got overpowered by just Goku. Even in the manga, Base Vegito out the wind up him and I have no idea how that would work be neither of the Base Saiyans are a match for Goku Black or Zamasu.

Compared to Gogeta and Kefla he seemed like he got the short end of the stick.

[Hugo Boss]

"Dozens of times"

The way this power-up is described is vague enough to fit any scenario, wether you think it became larger or not. I don’t think we are supposed to take it literally too, it’s just a different way of saying “way way stronger”.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So why does Fused Zamasu come across as so weak? I'm not talking about the Half Corrupted form because that wasn't even his own power, most of that came from the rift.

Just his own power, logically you'd think he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta considering that Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is far more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku and Zamasu is probably at least on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta.

But he doesn't seem like it. He got overpowered by just Goku. Even in the manga, Base Vegito out the wind up him and I have no idea how that would work be neither of the Base Saiyans are a match for Goku Black or Zamasu.

Compared to Gogeta and Kefla he seemed like he got the short end of the stick.

When it comes to Fusions, it seems that there's a certain "compatibility" component. Compared to Vegito, Merged Zamasu isn't really gaining anything in terms of personality; his egocentrism and self-entitled godliness were actually AMPLIFIED, and he became VERY quick to anger and frustration at the slightest ounce of imperfection against his power. Also, Goku Black was in a Saiyan body AND wasn't immortal, while Future Zamasu was a Kaioshin AND immortal; there just wasn't any balance to their resulting Fusion.

In comparison, Vegito/Gogeta and Kefla seem to take the best of their fusees whilst tempering the worst. Goku and Vegeta together balance out their chillax and stick-up-butt-ness, whilst Kefla balances out the timidness and shyness of Kale with Caulifla's boisterous ego. Okay, maybe the latter doesn't work as well, but clearly the 2 are meant to be a pretty good Fusion in the anime at least.

So, actual battle power is less of a factor than compatibility and potential power. Merged Zamasu's potential is limited due to his poor compatibility, whilst Vegito and Gogeta have immense potential due to perfected compatibility.

[Lord Frieza]

So why does Fused Zamasu come across as so weak? I'm not talking about the Half Corrupted form because that wasn't even his own power, most of that came from the rift.

Just his own power, logically you'd think he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta considering that Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is far more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku and Zamasu is probably at least on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta.

But he doesn't seem like it. He got overpowered by just Goku. Even in the manga, Base Vegito out the wind up him and I have no idea how that would work be neither of the Base Saiyans are a match for Goku Black or Zamasu.

Compared to Gogeta and Kefla he seemed like he got the short end of the stick.

I think it's mainly due to the power gap between Black and Zamasu. Future Zamasu in the manga is very weak. Anime Future Zamasu is powerful enough to fight Goku or Vegeta at the beginning of the arc, however as time goes on Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Black are all growing stronger one way or another while Zamasu is forced to rely more and more on his immortality to stay in the fight. Fusions, given how they works, function at it's best the closer the fuses are in power. The bigger the gap, the less powerful the resulting fusion is going to be. For example, had Goku fused with Satan to fight Buu the resulting fusion wouldn't have been much stronger Goku was normally.

With that in mind, it's pretty understandable why Manga Fused Zamasu is not as strong as you'd expect. Anime Fused Zamasu is a bit harder to explain, again he's not as powerful as your standard fusion but he should be stronger then his manga counterpart. My only real explanation, and I'll admit it's not a perfect one, is his arrogance. Fused Zamasu shows how the fusion of two of the same person is not always a good thing. Rather then just getting that person's personality, the resulting fusion has that persons character traits magnified. So in this case Zamasu's arrogance and narcissism has effectively been doubled, because of this he simple isn't taking the fight as seriously as he should because of how deluded in his own superiority he's become.

[ankokudaishogun]

We have to remember that some Kaioshin can be REALLY strong. Grand Kaioshin, for example, was enough that Pure Buu had to absorb him. And that was AFTER he gave up a lot of power against Moro, as revealed recently.

IIRC Buu absorbed the South Kaioshin because he was too strong THEN he absorbed the Grand Kaioshin, to get an Ego?

[Hugo Boss]

So why does Fused Zamasu come across as so weak?

I don’t think he lacks power, he is just too much arrogant, to the point he refuses to use most of his power. When he got serious he gave Vegetto a run for his money.

[ZombieVito]

So why does Fused Zamasu come across as so weak? I'm not talking about the Half Corrupted form because that wasn't even his own power, most of that came from the rift.

Just his own power, logically you'd think he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta considering that Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is far more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku and Zamasu is probably at least on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta.

But he doesn't seem like it. He got overpowered by just Goku. Even in the manga, Base Vegito out the wind up him and I have no idea how that would work be neither of the Base Saiyans are a match for Goku Black or Zamasu.

Compared to Gogeta and Kefla he seemed like he got the short end of the stick.

Because it's not a compatible fusion, same as Gotenks. At best he's as strong as Kaioken x10 Blue Goku without his Corrupted form.

People sure want to ignore that Zamasu called base Vegetto trash in the manga huh?

[PFM18]

Aside from the book what else suggests it? Just from what was given directly in universe, if Broly is stronger than Jiren then how is he only probably stronger than Beerus?

Wouldn't that also suggest that Jiren is weaker than Beerus despite several different things saying he was stronger than a God of Destruction?

Jiren was a match for a Goku who had mastered Ultra Instinct which Beerus himself had not. Doesn't seem like he'd probably be stronger than Beerus, he almost surely was.

https://imgur.com/gallery/ofL4PiO
"The strongest enemy ever invades Earth"
https://twitter.com/DBSuperFrance/statu ... 3068466177
"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." quote from Saikyo Jump
The title of the trailer where Gogeta and Broly fight is: "Strongest vs strongest"
In the first interview they asked Toriyama about Broly, he says: "There's nothing cooler than being the strongest."
https://imgur.com/gallery/ek0Z4Ne
Goku's caption here, is translated as ""I've never seen such an amazing opponent... S-so strong! Beaten up by the strongest ever, Broly."
Other alternative transalations call it "most powerful in history" rather than "strongest ever."

This is all in addition to the Light Novel explicitly acknowledging Broly as the strongest, too. So that makes six pieces of material that assert that Broly is the strongest foe that Goku has ever fought.

No, it wouldn't necessarily suggest that Jiren is weaker than Beerus, no. You're reading too much into the word "probably" being used.

What light novel? Which statement was made in there regarding Broly’s strength? Do you have the quote?

Freeza said in the light Novel about the movie that "Nobody in existence could defeat Broly as he is right now." Or another translation I've heard is "No mortal in existence could defeat Broly as he is right now." Or somehting along those lines.

So what is the consensus here on Jiren vs Broly?

According to the promotional material and Freeza in the novel, Broly is the strongest dude ever. I don't really buy it, though. To me, Jiren is clearly superior.

What’s there not to buy? There isn’t anything not to buy here. These are statements from OFFICIAL sources. SIX different pieces of statements IN FAVOR of Broly. Combine that with the fact that Broly is a Saiyan with infinite growth and on-the-spot zenkais, than there’s simply no room for debate and doubt here. You’re literally arguing against the creator’s mouth. Broly>>>>Jiren.

That's what I've been saying! This isn't a one-off comment; this is six sources.

Not all, just the ones involving promotion for the movie because that's what they're meant to be doing, hyping up the characters to get people to go see the movie first and foremost rather than be consistent with any kind of in universe power scaling. So what's that four of them? Which leaves the one from the book...what was the other one?

Not all? So then, you're admitting that at least one of these sources were approved by Toriyama before they were published? One of them is literally just quoting Toriyama himself commenting on Broly being cool because he's the strongest. They are very clearly portraying him as the strongest opponent Goku has ever faced.

[Hulk10]

Broly is powerful but Jiren likely still has some edge over him. But Broly as a SSJ4 would stomp Jiren.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly is powerful but Jiren likely still has some edge over him. But Broly as a SSJ4 would stomp Jiren.

Where do you guys keep getting the idea from that Jiren is stronger than Broly??? That’s nothing more than pure headcanon. It’s been confirmed by SIX (6) different sources that Broly is the strongest. Why are you still in denial?

[Amir]

Broly is powerful but Jiren likely still has some edge over him. But Broly as a SSJ4 would stomp Jiren.

Where do you guys keep getting the idea from that Jiren is stronger than Broly??? That’s nothing more than pure headcanon. It’s been confirmed by SIX (6) different sources that Broly is the strongest. Why are you still in denial?

To me they just looked like some hype statements from some nobody. I wouldn't call that official.
They keep using the words strongest ever, which means Broly has to be stronger than Beerus too, yet the movie only says "probably". It's obviously just some statements to hype the new antagonist.

An official source would be a guide or a statement from Toriyama. I remember that some writer said Goku Black is the strongest aside from Beerus, but that was obviously false at that time.

[SupremeKai25]

I remember that some writer said Goku Black is the strongest aside from Beerus, but that was obviously false at that time.

How so? He was pretty much stronger than everyone else (barring the Destroyers and Angels, of course) and lost only because he panicked and merged with his immortal partner when he really didn't need to.

[Bullza]

Not all? So then, you're admitting that at least one of these sources were approved by Toriyama before they were published? One of them is literally just quoting Toriyama himself commenting on Broly being cool because he's the strongest. They are very clearly portraying him as the strongest opponent Goku has ever faced.

Not necessarily. Even the book, it's not like he's gonna read it or the writer of it had to get in touch to make sure that one line could be approved. It's just that writers interpretation of the movie. Plus at what point was it even said? When Frieza was fighting Broly?

Because Frieza lasted an hour against Broly. He wouldn't have lasted 1 minute against Jiren. At that point Broly was still weaker than Super Saiyan Gogeta so are they also saying that Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Beerus and Jiren?

And because he's just not the strongest anyway makes it all dubious. The only direct comparison is with Beerus.

There was promotional lines where they said that Goku had surpassed Beerus but then it wasn't in the episode so that doesn't account for anything either.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Based purely on Broly's actual performance, I don't really see him as stronger than the Jiren I saw.

Stronger than Beerus? Probably. I can agree with Goku on that one. Stronger than Jiren? Little less believable. Maybe potentially almost stronger than Jiren's regular full-power, but the anime went a step further and gave Jiren a boost to go toe-to-toe with Ultra Instinct Goku.

I fully believe that Ultra Instinct is meant to, for the time, be the new power-up that surpasses even Fusion. Since it hasn't been used consistently yet, it still retains this status unlike Super Saiyan God.

[Kenneth La Torre]

To do to how gogeta beat broly, I see fusion as a power beyond MUI. I didnt see anything in the show that made me believe MUI to be tens of thousands of times stronger than a ssb, especially when Jiren in 127 (who powered up quite a bit) could be tagged and hurt when caught off guard. At most I would have it at the low thousands. Broly is irrelevant, as he proved no real challenge to ssblue gogeta, despite being most likely above all gods (if beerus is indeed the strongest like the manga suggests). And this debate won't change anyone's mind. It's all just freaking head canons. So we are all wasting our time trying to prove something that cant be proven currently.

I'm fact, I just hope Toriyama wanks beerus to such high levels that none of the people we mention have come close to his full power, that way we can, for 100% sure, say that beerus is a moving goal post and an outlier for God of destructions.