Zamasu's level of power

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Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:03 am

Zamasu has been a character that has received a lot of love and hate from the fanbase. He was probably the only original villain introduced in Dragon Ball Super (considering that he and Goku Black are the same person afterall) and he had a huge impact on the series. He showed us that even Gods can be corrupted. Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain, but this controversy doesn't really matter here.

Zamasu is a Kaioshin. A member of a godly race known as the Sinjins, destined to rule as the Supreme Kai of Universe 10, thus his rank ofa Supreme Kai Apprentice, under Gowasu.

According to Gowasu, Zamasu is an expert martial artist, withgreat power (something quite rare among the Sinjins). We get to see his power being showcased multiple times, but for this thread, I will examine the Pre-Super Dragon Balls Present Zamasu.

We got to see him fight against Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Early on during their fight, Zamasu was in control of the fight, using his mastery over the martial arts to gain an advantage over Goku. But when Goku got serious, even Zamasu couldn't hold him back. Moreover, even against the likes of Beerus, the 7th Universe's God of Destruction, Zamasu didn't show any kind of hesitation, until the Destroyer taught him his place by annihilating him out from existence.

I would like to see where Zamasu is placed in comparison to U7's Supreme Kais. The Goku that faced Zamasu has been training for years (count the Hyperbolic Time Chamber as well), has gained god level training by an angel and he has absorbed some god ki in his base, subsequently making him far stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart.

We can't define how strong Goku has become, but we can at least try and compare Zamasu to him. Gowasu stated that Zamasu is one of the strongest Supreme Kais (if not the strongest, I do not remember exactly) so that means that he must have been stronger than Shin.

Say that Goku has gotten at least 2 times stronger since the Buu Saga, then Zamasu would be on par with a Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku, considering that when Goku got serious, Zamasu couldn't even believe the difference in power.

As such, to give Zamasu a handicap, I believe that he could be stronger than Dabura, perhaps even at the level of Super Perfect Cell (if we say that Cell is stronger than Dabura). That would place Zamasu at a low SSJ3 level during the Buu Saga. If so, then he should be able to handle with some difficulty Majin Buu, in his pre-splitting form. That Buu is equal with Super Buu in terms of power, with personality and body type being the only changes.

Now, Kid Buu must be at that level as well. Perhaps a bit weaker, but we all know why he is the deadliest incarnation of Majin Buu. Zamasu wouldn't stand much of a chance against him, but he could have certanly dealt a lot of damage.

Back to my main point, Kid Buu was shown to fight against the U7's Supreme Kais, a long time ago. North Supreme Kai did all he could, but was ultimately defeated. He should have been stronger than Shin of course. Then West Supreme Kai was able to deal qite the damage to Buu, but to no avail. The South Supreme Kai was said to be the strongest at the time, causing huge trouble to Buu, who eventually absorbed him. Grand Supreme Kai would rank between the West and the SouthSupreme Kais, however as stated in the Manga of Dragon Ball Super, Moro was the reason behind Daikaioh's low power.

Now, South Supreme Kai was powerful, but I doubt that he was at a SSJ3 level. Perhaps he was, but he was on a low level. Maximum SSJ2 would be my guess. Anyway, Zamasu should fall between him and the supressed Grand Supreme Kai. I am still not certain if Zamasu is stronger to the South Supreme Kai and thats where I need your help!

Thank you all for participating in this discussion, have a nice day!
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by theherodjl » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:45 am

If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 am

theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
I believe that you are correct, although it seems kinda farfetched to have Zamasu be THAT strong. I mean, his role isn't one that involves fighting and even if he was the strongest Shinjin in all the Universes, would he be strong enough to defeat Buu, the godkiller, himself?
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:40 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain
That's not debate, he is villain in every way.

Speaking of power, i'd say he is stronger than Cell, but probably not stronger than Super Buu. I'd say he is at Kid Buu level.
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that, because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:15 am

Zamasu stomps every Kai from Universe 7, including Shin. Zamasu was a mere apprentice yet he was already a prodigy and fighting genius and his power were pretty much unprecedented even amongst his superiors. Goku even tells Zamasu after their duel that he is much stronger than the Supreme Kai of Universe 7, and he later on tells Beerus that if Zamasu kept training he could rival the Destroyer himself.

Also I believe that Zamasu was holding back in his fight against Goku. I need to rewatch the episode, but I seem to recall Gowasu advising Zamasu to hold back, to which Beerus replied that if he held back he'd die. It remains to be seen whether Zamasu followed his master's advice or used his full power.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:39 am

Present Zamasu was definitely at least as strong as SS Goku in terms of raw power, similar to the manga.

How strong is SS Goku, then?

Well, based on the Broly movie, not leagues and leagues away from SSG. An Oozaru boost from base Broly's level (which was stronger than SS Vegeta but not by a large margin, maybe SS2), and he's able to tank SSG Vegeta's direct punch.

10 times, even a hundred times is still reasonable for SSG's jump from current SS. Given how Potara Fusion was inferior to SSG at the time when the power-up was first introduced, the difference between SS and SSG now seems to mirror how much of a difference SSG would've been compared to Vegito during Beerus's awakening.

Significant, above even SS3, but not so much stronger that simple numbers can't overtake it. So basically, Zamasu was likely about as strong as SS Vegito or above that level. A significant jump from other Kaioshin, but he IS a prodigy Kaioshin. Also neatly explains how Goku Black can so quickly surpass SS3 in his base form if he starts out in Goku's body with the power he had as Zamasu.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:23 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
I believe that you are correct, although it seems kinda farfetched to have Zamasu be THAT strong. I mean, his role isn't one that involves fighting and even if he was the strongest Shinjin in all the Universes, would he be strong enough to defeat Buu, the godkiller, himself?
What's farfetched about it? He is a prodigy among Kaioshin who are already gifted. I mean, our Kaioshin is a complete loser but yet he dwarfs the galactic Tyrant that everyone was familiar with at the time. The scale for Gods is just automatically higher, and it makes sense.
sunsetshimmer wrote:Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that
1. There's no such thing as filler in DBS.
2. It would have been a huge contradiction if SSJ3 Gotenks WASN'T fodder to the Base Saiyans by that point. Gotenks was deemed to be useless against Freeza, but Base Goku and Vegeta were even with his Final Form.
3. Nothing contradicts it after that.
because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
This assumes that Ultimate Gohan DBS=Ultimate Gohan Buu arc. That's demonstrably false, so none of this holds any water.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:32 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
I believe that you are correct, although it seems kinda farfetched to have Zamasu be THAT strong. I mean, his role isn't one that involves fighting and even if he was the strongest Shinjin in all the Universes, would he be strong enough to defeat Buu, the godkiller, himself?
What's farfetched about it? He is a prodigy among Kaioshin who are already gifted. I mean, our Kaioshin is a complete loser but yet he dwarfs the galactic Tyrant that everyone was familiar with at the time. The scale for Gods is just automatically higher, and it makes sense.
sunsetshimmer wrote:Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that
1. There's no such thing as filler in DBS.
2. It would have been a huge contradiction if SSJ3 Gotenks WASN'T fodder to the Base Saiyans by that point. Gotenks was deemed to be useless against Freeza, but Base Goku and Vegeta were even with his Final Form.
3. Nothing contradicts it after that.
because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
This assumes that Ultimate Gohan DBS=Ultimate Gohan Buu arc. That's demonstrably false, so none of this holds any water.
I didn't say that I wasn't agreeing. But your point about the Kaioshins, was something that I did not remember. Thanks for stating it!
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:35 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain
That's not debate, he is villain in every way.

Speaking of power, i'd say he is stronger than Cell, but probably not stronger than Super Buu. I'd say he is at Kid Buu level.
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that, because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
About the part in which I question Zamasu's nature. It is extremely complicated, but it seems like Zamasu was indeed a villain in the eyes of humans, however he wasn't evil (Gowasu stated so multiple times, when Zamasu aade him tea) rather his vision was clouded and he did what he believed was the right thing to do, for the sake of the multiverse, since he was a god meant to protect it. Of course, that doesn't mean that his actions were ethical, but he was quite a complex character.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain
That's not debate, he is villain in every way.

Speaking of power, i'd say he is stronger than Cell, but probably not stronger than Super Buu. I'd say he is at Kid Buu level.
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that, because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
About the part in which I question Zamasu's nature. It is extremely complicated, but it seems like Zamasu was indeed a villain in the eyes of humans, however he wasn't evil (Gowasu stated so multiple times, when Zamasu aade him tea) rather his vision was clouded and he did what he believed was the right thing to do, for the sake of the multiverse, since he was a god meant to protect it. Of course, that doesn't mean that his actions were ethical, but he was quite a complex character.
Hmmmm you have a good point about Zamasu.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ruler9871 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:17 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain
That's not debate, he is villain in every way.

Speaking of power, i'd say he is stronger than Cell, but probably not stronger than Super Buu. I'd say he is at Kid Buu level.
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that, because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
1. There's no such thing as filler in the DBS Anime, since it is not an adaptation of any previous source material.

2. Ultimate Gohan in Super>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ultimate Gohan in Z. They are not the same in power.

3. Base Goku/Vegeta>>>>All of Z has never been contradicted by anything after the U6 arc. People only deny it out of bias (they dont like the idea of DBS base Saiyans being above all of Z & GT).

4. Most alleged inconsistencies in Super's powerscaling come from people ignoring statements and context.
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Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:00 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:Now, there is a great debate as to if Zamasu was an actual villain
That's not debate, he is villain in every way.

Speaking of power, i'd say he is stronger than Cell, but probably not stronger than Super Buu. I'd say he is at Kid Buu level.
theherodjl wrote:If Zamasu can handle post-SSJG ritual SSJ2 Goku(including all the training he has done since) then he would roflstomp even Boohan with ease. Goku just in base form is stronger than Gotenks' full power(as seen in his battle with Copy Vegeta who had just pwned SSJ3 Gotenks) so Zamasu has got to be far above DBZ's meager level.
Copy-Vegeta was anime filler and everything after that contradicts what happened there so i'm not sure if we should count that, because Goku was actually struggling with Ultimate Gohan and while gap between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks SSJ3 is pretty big, it's not THAT big so Goku can't beat him with regular super saiyan if his base was supposed to tank everything Gotenks SSJ3 throws at him. DBS was so inconsistent with power levels it's really hard to say what would happen if Zamasu fought Gotenks. While his skill would be much better obviously, he could lack power against Gotenks.
1. There's no such thing as filler in the DBS Anime, since it is not an adaptation of any previous source material.

2. Ultimate Gohan in Super>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ultimate Gohan in Z. They are not the same in power.

3. Base Goku/Vegeta>>>>All of Z has never been contradicted by anything after the U6 arc. People only deny it out of bias (they dont like the idea of DBS base Saiyans being above all of Z & GT).

4. Most alleged inconsistencies in Super's powerscaling come from people ignoring statements and context.
I agree outside of #3. No way in hell Base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than all of Z and GT. I also have U6 arc Base Goku and Vegeta at right around SSJ Vegetto level.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Vertical » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:55 am

Just a reminder to those who care: Zamasu was scouted for the position of Kaioshin, not born into it as he would have been if he were born of a golden Shin-jin fruit. As such, his "prodigy" status should be measured against similar members of his species: The lower ranking Kaio's (like U7's Kaioken-creator, North Kaio).
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Now, South Supreme Kai was powerful, but I doubt that he was at a SSJ3 level. Perhaps he was, but he was on a low level. Maximum SSJ2 would be my guess. Anyway, Zamasu should fall between him and the supressed Grand Supreme Kai. I am still not certain if Zamasu is stronger to the South Supreme Kai and thats where I need your help!
South Supreme Kai was likely about as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:36 am

In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Lord Frieza » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:23 am

BrolyKale wrote:In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
I think there are severl factors to explain why Anime F. Zamasu is so strong. Firstly Goku said Zamasu had the potential to be a rival to Beerus one day, much like Goku himself. So if he kept up his training he could have gotten a lot stronger over time. There are also other factors such how much time has passed since he joined Black and what did he get up to during his downtime while purging other planets. Plus it’s possible his immortal body allows him allows him to draw out a greater amount of power since he no longer fears hurting himself and is mostly indifferent, or getting off on, the pain.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:29 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
I think there are severl factors to explain why Anime F. Zamasu is so strong. Firstly Goku said Zamasu had the potential to be a rival to Beerus one day, much like Goku himself. So if he kept up his training he could have gotten a lot stronger over time. There are also other factors such how much time has passed since he joined Black and what did he get up to during his downtime while purging other planets. Plus it’s possible his immortal body allows him allows him to draw out a greater amount of power since he no longer fears hurting himself and is mostly indifferent, or getting off on, the pain.
Ah, right! I completely forgot about that. Good point, good point.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:29 am

Future Zamas was almost as strong as Future Trunks. Only as Black, Zamas surpass Trunks.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:26 am

Almost idk about that... but Goku said in the manga that Future Trunks alone could beat him.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:33 pm

Vertical wrote:Just a reminder to those who care: Zamasu was scouted for the position of Kaioshin, not born into it as he would have been if he were born of a golden Shin-jin fruit. As such, his "prodigy" status should be measured against similar members of his species: The lower ranking Kaio's (like U7's Kaioken-creator, North Kaio).
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Now, South Supreme Kai was powerful, but I doubt that he was at a SSJ3 level. Perhaps he was, but he was on a low level. Maximum SSJ2 would be my guess. Anyway, Zamasu should fall between him and the supressed Grand Supreme Kai. I am still not certain if Zamasu is stronger to the South Supreme Kai and thats where I need your help!
South Supreme Kai was likely about as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.
Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:28 pm

I don't see FZ being that strong, without his immortality he should've died against SS2 Trunks in his first fight. So 20 years after the fight against Goku he never had, his power hasn't gotten much stronger, he still is behind or around a SS2 character. Perhaps he quit training after gaining immortality (when was that? a year ago? 10 years ago?), no matter why, his power didn't skyrocket like they thought it would.

Now, Trunks managed to kill Dabura but couldn't save Shin, therefore Trunks being somewhere around Gohan and Majin Vegeta, wouldn't have lasted long against any Majin Buu... one year later he had his share of zenkais and some training with Vegeta, that would place him around what? SS3 Goku from Z? I'm taking this huge leap because in the manga he was a match for Goku(I know we can't reconciliate anime and manga) but I don't dare taking Trunks from slightly above Dabura to stomping Gotenks ss3 just from zenkais and a spar with Vegeta. And if SS2 Trunks being Kid Buu or Super Buu tier(if we go a little crazy) "defeated" Future Zamasu, then Present Zamasu, 20 years ago Zamasu, should be around that as well.

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