I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

[jjgp1112]

Where we disagree is that I think Toei passively tried to fit the movies due to the references to the present conflicts as if they were over, but weren't concerned if they wound up not fitting. A complete afterthought, but at least a modicum of effort.

[KBABZ]

Funi dub coming out a decade later and its inability to let the series go (in-house ultimate uncut redub comes to mind) there really hasn’t been any signficant gaps in the US where Dragon Ball was really “over” part of that as just when Funimation was running out of things to do with Z Toei releases new material with Kai and the new movies and Super.

While all of this is true, I think calling Kai "new material" is a HUGE misnomer of a stretch. Nothing about Kai is really "new" in any way: its just Z reruns with the episode count hacked down, light censorship, and a new score for inconsistent stretches of it. Its always bothered me when people regard it as "new Dragon Ball content" when its clearly anything but.

That's very true for the Japanese side, and while it's mostly true for the Funi side as well, I do think it's significant in that it was really the start of a more concise effort to present the series more like it is in its native Japan. And personally I think the removal of filler gives it a vastly different personality from the original product.

Question: is there anything in the Z movies that make them non-canon with the DB film trio? I ask because I like to bundle the DB and DBZ movies together.

There's one little Goku sized problem with your Movie 7 explanation. And then an additional Super Saiyan 2-level hole.

See, this is why I need to watch these movies to make sense of it! SS2 does seem to contradict the idea of it taking place in the "Trunks deactivates the Androids, Cell doesn't show up" timeline, since Gohan wouldn't have needed to chase that in that series of events.

[Kunzait_83]

See, this is why I need to watch these movies to make sense of it! SS2 does seem to contradict the idea of it taking place in the "Trunks deactivates the Androids, Cell doesn't show up" timeline, since Gohan wouldn't have needed to chase that in that series of events.

Except... Gohan ISN'T SSJ2 in Movie 7. Hell, he's not even SSJ1 in that movie: Gohan in that movie is very much where he is in the Artificial Humans arc pre-Room of Spirit and Time.

Another problem with your whole earlier "Movie 7 can be set after the Cell Games" thesis is Goku being alive and well and kind of one of the three main players of the movie.

Just... go sit down and watch the fucking movies first, THEN come back to talk about them here. Trust me, the "Movie 7 takes place in the alternate timeline where Cell killed Trunks" idea makes WAY more sense when you've actually seen and know what happens in Movie 7 in the first place.

[RandomGuy96]

The stupid Namek bowl cut thing gets brought up a lot, but what people get the most hung up on is Goku not going SSJ till the very end of the fight.

I always just interpreted that as Toei dragging things out as they always do. Essentially the exact same thing happens in movies 6 and 7, when SS definitely wasn't supposed to be new. Right down to Goku letting himself get beaten up a bunch and treating things as hopeless even though he has another transformation in store. Hell, Toei's still doing that as of the Broly movie! SSG Goku rushes in to fight Broly (after seeing the identically-powerful Vegeta fail), gets hammered, and the film treats it as a big dramatic moment and low point, and the resulting transformation into Blue as a huge event.

We know Goku is prone to being lax but, especially with Goku at his most heroic serious business Toei Goku-ness here, it doesn't really make sense why he'd even try fighting in his base form if he can sense that Cooler is both as strong as Frieza and has an extra transformation that pushes him even further than Frieza. If he could go Super Saiyan on his own accord, he'd do it.

Goku tried to fight Janemba in his base form in movie 12. That's just how Toei does things.

[KBABZ]

Just... go sit down and watch the fucking movies first, THEN come back to talk about them here. Trust me, the "Movie 7 takes place in the alternate timeline where Cell killed Trunks" idea makes WAY more sense when you've actually seen and know what happens in Movie 7 in the first place.

I will, I've said this, I just need subtitle files! Or I'll get the Movies on Blu-Ray later in the year.

[MasenkoHA]

Ultimately the problem with the movies is they're all written based on Toei's assumptions on the state of things after the current arc wraps up based on whatever was going on in the story at the time of production. That Movies 5, 9 and 13 fit at all is pure luck since they were made near or at the end of their concurrent story arcs and thus had way less margin for error.

I mean, there was never any intent to have them explicitly fit in-"Canon" or even something as vague as matching the current state of the anime or manga at the time, just a general effort to have them fit the general status quo of the time in terms of character lineup and techniques used. Z movies 5, 9, and 13 just so happened to not contain the glaring errors many of them do, and happen to also be free of the minor inconsistencies we see in a bunch of them that bother so many people obsessed with their precious Dragon Ball "Canon" making sense... (Which it never has. 8-month gap between first and second Dragon Ball wishes anyone? Yamucha, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn never even trying to learn Kaioken? Vegeta never growing his tail back, and Trunks, Goten, and Bra never having them in the first place, even when we see Bra's birth? All the irreconcilable inconsistencies Super has created with the original Z ending?)

Ultimately, unless it has some big, glaring inconsistency in it, I say go ahead and imagine it's part of the story. If it improves your experience with the series, then go nuts; what's the downside?

We...agree? That's what I'm saying. They didn't go out of their way to make them fit, they just fit it into the general status quo. But since many of the movies make reference to events of the series as if they've already passed, it can be inferred that Toei intended for them to take place after the current arc was wrapped up, and then the story just didn't go how Toei thought.

."

Honestly? I don’t think Toei gave it any thought beyond using the movies to tell whatever story they wanted to tell without getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series.

Movie 2 they wanted to give focus to Gohan’s idolization of Piccolo and use a flashback of Piccolo’s sacrificing himself for Gohan as reference but didn’t want to get bog down with the little detail of Piccolo is suppose to be dead at the time

During movie 3’s production the heroes were on Namek and Toei wanted to do a story on earth instead of Namek so fuck it they’re on earth and Piccolo and the others are still alive

Goku becoming a Super Saiyajin was a forgone conclusion and there’s no way Toei didn’t know Toriyama would eventually tell how that would happen but they still decided to do their own version of how he become one and what it looks like

Any reference to Freeza in movies 3 and 4 were more because he was the big bad at the time of the series rather than any attempt to tie the movies in with the show.

Who the fuck cares that right now the heroes were too preoccupied with Cell. Toei just wanted to do a story about even more Androids

Even us coming up with “this movie would take place if such and such happened” is no doubt giving it waaay more thought than Toei did.

[KBABZ]

Even us coming up with “this movie would take place if such and such happened” is no doubt giving it waaay more thought than Toei did.

I think 90% of conversation on this site is putting in more thought that Toei did!

[MasenkoHA]

Even us coming up with “this movie would take place if such and such happened” is no doubt giving it waaay more thought than Toei did.

I think 90% of conversation on this site is putting in more thought that Toei did!

Shit. Good point.

[ZodaEX]

I mean, there was never any intent to have them explicitly fit in-"Canon" or even something as vague as matching the current state of the anime or manga at the time, just a general effort to have them fit the general status quo of the time in terms of character lineup and techniques used. Z movies 5, 9, and 13 just so happened to not contain the glaring errors many of them do, and happen to also be free of the minor inconsistencies we see in a bunch of them that bother so many people obsessed with their precious Dragon Ball "Canon" making sense... (Which it never has. 8-month gap between first and second Dragon Ball wishes anyone? Yamucha, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn never even trying to learn Kaioken? Vegeta never growing his tail back, and Trunks, Goten, and Bra never having them in the first place, even when we see Bra's birth? All the irreconcilable inconsistencies Super has created with the original Z ending?)

Ultimately, unless it has some big, glaring inconsistency in it, I say go ahead and imagine it's part of the story. If it improves your experience with the series, then go nuts; what's the downside?

We...agree? That's what I'm saying. They didn't go out of their way to make them fit, they just fit it into the general status quo. But since many of the movies make reference to events of the series as if they've already passed, it can be inferred that Toei intended for them to take place after the current arc was wrapped up, and then the story just didn't go how Toei thought.

."

Honestly? I don’t think Toei gave it any thought beyond using the movies to tell whatever story they wanted to tell without getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series.

Movie 2 they wanted to give focus to Gohan’s idolization of Piccolo and use a flashback of Piccolo’s sacrificing himself for Gohan as reference but didn’t want to get bog down with the little detail of Piccolo is suppose to be dead at the time

During movie 3’s production the heroes were on Namek and Toei wanted to do a story on earth instead of Namek so fuck it they’re on earth and Piccolo and the others are still alive

Goku becoming a Super Saiyajin was a forgone conclusion and there’s no way Toei didn’t know Toriyama would eventually tell how that would happen but they still decided to do their own version of how he become one and what it looks like

Any reference to Freeza in movies 3 and 4 were more because he was the big bad at the time of the series rather than any attempt to tie the movies in with the show.

Who the fuck cares that right now the heroes were too preoccupied with Cell. Toei just wanted to do a story about even more Androids

Even us coming up with “this movie would take place if such and such happened” is no doubt giving it waaay more thought than Toei did.

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

[KBABZ]

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

Because Toei weren't the ones writing it, Toriyama was. When you have a lengthy, ongoing story like Dragon Ball, it becomes incredibly difficult to try and find spots to insert your stories when there are years between timeskips. It was ultimately easier for them to say "Ah screw it" and tell the stories that they wanted to tell with the characters they wanted without being bogged down by continuity.

[MasenkoHA]

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

By making movies independent from what was going on in the series. Hence movies where the characters are doing so and so when they should be concerned with so and so or tied up with this and that.

This isn’t even a Dragon Ball specific thing. From what I’ve seen this is pretty common for Japanese movies based on tv series in general ex Super Sentai, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Tenchi Muyo. I could give more examples if I watched any anime series that came out after I was 12.

[LostTimeLord]

is there anything in the Z movies that make them non-canon with the DB film trio?

The only obvious things I can think of is Chaozu no longer being an emperor and that there's a huge jump in the story between DB movie 3 and DBZ movie 1.

[ronaldnorth_03]

I personally think it goes like this:

1. Jaco/DB Minus -> Original Manga -> DBS Manga

2. Bardock FOG -> Early DB Anime -> Z -> GT

3. Early DB Anime -> Kai -> DBS Anime

4. Xenoverse & Heroes (where everything is canon)

The DBS Broly film is canon to #1, 3 & 4.

Most of the old Z films don't connect to each other (and Dead Zone, World's Strongest & Bojack Unbound are the only ones that could fit into any of the main 3 canons) and together form at least 5 different continuities.

In this continuity regarding the films, I just put them there as an alternative. They are not linked to other movies except those that have direct sequences.

[ZodaEX]

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

Because Toei weren't the ones writing it, Toriyama was. When you have a lengthy, ongoing story like Dragon Ball, it becomes incredibly difficult to try and find spots to insert your stories when there are years between timeskips. It was ultimately easier for them to say "Ah screw it" and tell the stories that they wanted to tell with the characters they wanted without being bogged down by continuity.

If Toriyama wrote the anime filler, then why do so many people here say that it's not canon but the things that he wrote are? I thought Toriyama wrote the manga, then Toei adapted it into it's own animal. Please correct me and tell me how is really is since i'm wrong about it.

[KBABZ]

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

Because Toei weren't the ones writing it, Toriyama was. When you have a lengthy, ongoing story like Dragon Ball, it becomes incredibly difficult to try and find spots to insert your stories when there are years between timeskips. It was ultimately easier for them to say "Ah screw it" and tell the stories that they wanted to tell with the characters they wanted without being bogged down by continuity.

If Toriyama wrote the anime filler, then why do so many people here say that it's not canon but the things that he wrote are? I thought Toriyama wrote the manga, then Toei adapted it into it's own animal. Please correct me and tell me how is really is since i'm wrong about it.

Well, Toriyama didn't write the filler, he gave the anime team base ideas to adapt into the episodes. This is different from Super where Toriyama has a more hands-on approach to creating the story. This gets a tad confusing: Super had an episode where Yamcha returns to baseball, which is based on the Z episode where Yamcha playing baseball was a Toriyama idea, suggesting that specific episode is canon. At the same time, Toriyama designed a giant bird for the Wedding Dress Arc as well as most of the movie villains. Does that make them canon because Toriyama drew their designs? If so, does that make Android 21 canon too? Another example: the Driving episode is based on the cover art for an old manga Chapter: does that make it canon to the manga?

Most fans tend to err on the side of no for these things. Since most filler episodes tend to contradict what happens later, it's easier to just say that's an oddity with the anime and doesn't apply to the manga. In some cases the anime goes back on their filler: King Kai saying that Vegeta was destroyed by its vengeful Guardian was overwritten by the Frieza explanation revealed much later by Dodoria, and the anime made no attempt to address this inconsistency. It just moved on and hoped the audience didn't remember. Some filler stuff has in a roundabout way become Toriyama-canon though, such as his original, headband-less design for Bardock or King Vegeta's beard (they're now in DBS Broly). Sometimes you have to go on a case-by-case basis with these things.

[Danfun64]

case-by-case

"Cake banana cake? I want some!" - Goku, GT (forgot the episode number)

In all seriousness, it's amazing how much the filler messed things up. We go from a consistent depiction of Hell from Toei to Piccolo telling Vegeta that when evil people die, they lose their bodies and eventually become reincarnated. Granted, I think Movie 12 did a decent job at harmonizing the two explanations, but that doesn't excuse (on one hand) the Afterlife Tournament stuff where Cell, Freeza etc are wreaking havoc (the Ginyu Force was kinda sorta explained by the Freeza saga filler with King Kai's planet, but that doesn't explain why the likes of Freeza and Cell have bodies), the giant crystal ball in hell where the villains of old are watching the fight between Goku and Kid Boo, or the crap that occurred in the Super Android 17 saga of GT.

And to make matters worse Earth's hell is portrayed radically differently starting with Resurrection 'F'.

And the aforementioned scene with the Ginyu's in King Kai's planet makes judging the strength of Yamcha and Tenshinhan confusing.

And of course, the filler assumes that the events of at least some of the movies occurred in broad strokes (this at the very least includes DBZ Movie 1 (Garlic Jr Saga), DBZ Movies 2, 4 and 5 (DBZ Movie 12), DBZ Movie 3 (Garlic Jr Saga), DBZ Movie 12 (Super Android 17 saga), DBZ Movie 13 (GT's intro)). If we were to include Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, then DBZ Movie 8 would need to be included as well.

One of the interesting things Kai did was that it changed the script to remove some references to filler, but the only one I'm sure of is when Gohan, Krillin, and Bulma spot (real) Namek. In Z Bulma references the space orphans telling them of a shortcut, pretty sure that doesn't happen in Kai for obvious reasons. How many other moments did Kai remove references to filler again?

[KBABZ]

One of the interesting things Kai did was that it changed the script to remove some references to filler, but the only one I'm sure of is when Gohan, Krillin, and Bulma spot (real) Namek. In Z Bulma references the space orphans telling them of a shortcut, pretty sure that doesn't happen in Kai for obvious reasons. How many other moments did Kai remove references to filler again?

I'd LOVE to know more of this stuff as well. Would make a great section of the site if the team weren't busy with everything else already!

[The Tori-bot]

Am I the only one who finds that chart in the first post completely fucking nonsensical? Even with the "explanations" below (or perhaps because of them...?) I have no idea what information it's supposed to be conveying or what the layout represents.

I'm not even sure if "Continuity 2" is actually on there as the description of it tells me absolutely nothing about what it is, what stories it supports or what the word "support" even means in this context. Why are there two timelines that are just Episode of Bardock and nothing else? Why are said timelines different lengths? What's with the "=" signs? Why is Broli grouped with BoG and 'F' but not the series that it's explicitly a sequel to? Is it telling me that GT is a sequel to the movies and not the anime? Why are the TV specials listed twice in the same timeline? What is a "mirror" continuity and why does it exist? What is "Continuity 5" supposed to be and why is it a what-if of 4? For that matter, why is "Continuity 4" the fifth thing on the chart? Does "Ending" refer to Goku flying off with Uub? If so, why does the "manga" timeline not include its own ending? But then that can't be the manga timeline, because apparently that's "Continuity 1"... yet it comes third in the actual chart... but then it's the only one to include Jaco, which is Toriyama-penned and exclusive to the manga format and oh no I've gone cross-eyed.

The more I try to make sense of it, the less sense it makes. It's actually somewhat impressive in that regard.

[KBABZ]

Am I the only one who finds the chart in the first post completely fucking nonsensical? Even with the "explanations" below (or perhaps because of them...?) I have no idea what information it's supposed to be conveying or what the layout represents.

I agree, I think the links are supposed to represent common media that show up in multiple continuities, like the original Dragon Ball. I don't think it makes sense either, but here's my best guess:

Branch A: DB > EoB > Yo! > Super > Ending. Continuity for modern anime. Episode of Bardock is here as a side-branch.
Branch B: Jaco > BoG > RoF > Broly. Continuity for the modern trilogy of movies (Jaco is there due to his appearance in RoF).
Branch C: DB > Z > Yo! > Super> Ending. Continuity for the classic anime.
Branch D: Movies + Specials > EoB > GT. Continuity for all the anime and movies. GT is here due to Super 17, and EoB is a side-branch yet again.


Since I like typing it out, here's how I arrange the various works into continuity families:

Spoiler:

Manga: Dragon Ball Minus > Jaco > Dragon Ball manga > Dragon Ball Super manga
This is the core works on the page of Akira Toriyama. Toyotaro's DBS manga is placed here out of a lack of any better place to put it, as it fits the theme and Toriyama is involved with its direction.

Anime Classic: Bardock Special > Dragon Ball anime > Dragon Ball Z + Trunks Special > Yo! > Dragon Ball GT > GT TV Special
The classic anime works that aired on Japanese TV from 1986 to 1997, from Bardock's tale up to Goku Jr.'s adventure.

Anime Modern: Jaco > Dragon Ball anime > Dragon Ball Kai > Yo! > Dragon Ball Super anime > Super Broly
The modern anime continuity, established with Kai and the Super anime. Most new works tend to fit here.

Classic Movies: DB M1-3 > DBZ M1-13 + PTETSS > BoG > RoF
The continuity the older movies exist in, due to the incredible number of plotholes if one tries to put them into the anime. The BoG and RoF movies are placed here because the Super adaptations expanded on their stories. It is understood that SOME version of the Daimao and Jr arcs and the Z anime happens in this family to make the various movies work and flow together off-screen.

Solitary Works: Path to Power, Dragon Ball Evolution
These aren't actually part of a shared continuity, but rather are the only examples of the continuity they created. Importantly, they don't try to ambiguously fit a status quo from another work either like the Classic Movies do, but instead establish their own.

Unsorted Bin: Goku's Fire Fighting & Traffic Safety, DBZ M7 Recap Special, Terebikko Phone Game, 1993 End of Year Recap, Eradicate Saiyans, Episode of Bardock, Dragon Ball Heroes, Dragon Ball FighterZ.
Everything else that is either non-canon or just plain whack to try and fit anywhere for various reasons. Also included here are any original video game stories.

There's also one that I like to call the Mount Paoz duo, made up of Path to Power and the GT Special. The idea is that one is about a Goku leaving Mount Paoz while the other is about a Goku returning to it.

[ZodaEX]

How was Toei possibly going to avoid getting tied up in the heavy serialization of the series when they were the ones producing it?

By making movies independent from what was going on in the series. Hence movies where the characters are doing so and so when they should be concerned with so and so or tied up with this and that.

This isn’t even a Dragon Ball specific thing. From what I’ve seen this is pretty common for Japanese movies based on tv series in general ex Super Sentai, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Tenchi Muyo. I could give more examples if I watched any anime series that came out after I was 12.

See, I told you so. Read all the replies. Toriyama didn't write the anime filler.