Unpopular DB opinions

[WittyUsername]

I guess to get back to the subject of this thread, I kind of think that Infinite World is a better game than Budokai 3. At least, that’s how I remember it.

[MasenkoHA]

Sure, being a teenager isn’t a picnic for everyone, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than being an adult.

Not really relevant.

but when your show exists specifically because some studio executives want to appeal more towards the target audience, I think it would’ve made sense to try and give kids a more lighthearted take on Batman.

It existed because the heads of KidsWb told them to make Batman a teenager because they thought that would appeal more the 2-11 demo than a rich 30-year old man. It's not like they said "Hey make Batman more light-hearted" and Timm and Co went "But what if we didn't?" The Kidswb head literally wanted it be more like Buffy. They made the show to the specifications that was asked of them only using the future setting as an excuse for a new Batman because they knew Bruce Wayne as a teenage Batman would be idiotic.

Something more along the lines of early Spider-Man comics than Blade Runner. It’s like making a dark and edgy show about Captain Marvel/Shazam. What’s the point of the protagonist being a kid if you’re going to do that?

Why are you still on this whole if the work has a minor in it than it should be light hearted fluff mentality?

I just think it should be kept in mind that we aren’t the target demographic for it, which is something that other people (I’m not saying you’re one of them) seem to forget.

As far as Dragon Ball fandom goes this forum seems pretty well aware that it's a kid show. I really have not seen too many members on here who are the under the impression they're watching a series for adults or asking the franchise to pander to them.

[WittyUsername]

Sure, being a teenager isn’t a picnic for everyone, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than being an adult.

Not really relevant.

but when your show exists specifically because some studio executives want to appeal more towards the target audience, I think it would’ve made sense to try and give kids a more lighthearted take on Batman.

It existed because the heads of KidsWb told them to make Batman a teenager because they thought that would appeal more the 2-11 demo than a rich 30-year old man. It's not like they said "Hey make Batman more light-hearted" and Timm and Co went "But what if we didn't?" The Kidswb head literally wanted it be more like Buffy. They made the show to the specifications that was asked of them only using the future setting as an excuse for a new Batman because they knew Bruce Wayne as a teenage Batman would be idiotic.

Something more along the lines of early Spider-Man comics than Blade Runner. It’s like making a dark and edgy show about Captain Marvel/Shazam. What’s the point of the protagonist being a kid if you’re going to do that?

Why are you still on this whole if the work has a minor in it than it should be light hearted fluff mentality?

I’m not saying that something with a kid as the protagonist has to be complete fluff, or at the very least, that wasn’t what I was trying to convey. I just think that if you’re going to make what is essentially a spin-off baby version of an existing property, you might as well go for something more down to Earth and lighthearted. I guess if I had to use a better comparison than what I used earlier, could you imagine if Tom & Jerry Kids was even more violent and gruesome than the original Tom & Jerry shorts?

As far as Dragon Ball fandom goes this forum seems pretty well aware that it's a kid show. I really have not seen too many members on here who are the under the impression they're watching a series for adults or asking the franchise to pander to them.

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

[Scsigs]

I seriously disagree. Just because B:TAS wasn’t a colorful toy commercial (at least not until it got reworked into TNBA) doesn’t mean it holds up. The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar in the early episodes. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics. I do think that Mask of the Phantasm isn’t too bad, but the series itself? Meh.

As for BB, that show is atrocious, and that includes Return of the Joker. Everything about that stupid show and movie just screams “LOOK AT HOW HIP AND EDGY WE ARE!” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hilariously try hard and stupid.

Anyway, as for Dragon Ball itself, people who are blinded by nostalgia do seem to unfortunately forget that it’s a stupid and poorly written franchise geared towards children.

I mean, the show's animation style is a bit dated (especially with how Justice League's animation was much improved over 10 years later), but that's a result of the time. It's animation is stylized, though, so it helps it hold up better than other cartoons of its era. The artstyle is good for what it had to be, but it could've been better.

How can you look at the Return of the Joker movie with a straight face & say, "This movie is just trying to be hip & edgy"? And, if you seriously don't get why Tim Drake, the Robin from Batman: TAS, being turned into a mini Joker & being presented to Batman by Joker, with all of the mind rape he & Harley subjected him to to hypnotize him into telling him all Batman's secrets, then brainwash him into being a mini Joker to fuck with Batman by turning one of his closest allies into a weapon against him, is disturbing, then I don't know what to say. It's not the image itself that's disturbing. It's the backstory & meaning behind the transformation that makes it so creepy.

Anyways, Dragon Ball itself, yes, is written with kids in mind. The series itself started as a comedic piss-take on Journey to the West, after all, & Toriyama's sense of humor is also very immature, but when Dragon Ball is good, it's damn good. Like, so good it's for more mature audiences good. No, no one's blinded by nostalgia for liking Dragon Ball & thinking it's good. I'd say that the person who thinks that is an elitist prick, but that's just me. Also, I'd only say that the only people affected by nostalgia in the DB fandom are the people who legit still unironically enjoy the old Z dub, since it's not that good. The show itself is pretty good most of the time, but the dub sucks.

Also, if the show sucks, why are you on a forum dedicated to it?

Nothing about Harley Quinn makes sense. Her backstory is that she’s a naive airhead who got a PhD by having sex with her professors, even though that’s not how any of that works. The idea of her being manipulated into falling in love with the Joker is also really stupid. Since when was the Joker some charming Ted Bundy-esque character? Who asked for that? And why does the Joker need to be a domestic abuser? The whole point of the Joker is that he’s an unpredictable force of nature. There’s nothing unpredictable about a bad guy who happens to be an abusive boyfriend. That’s so lazy and manipulative. Not to mention that if Harley Quinn is supposed to represent victims of domestic violence, then that seems extremely insulting and demeaning. Beyond that, her voice and her sense of “humor” are ear gratingly awful.

The idea of the Joker torturing Tim Drake for shits and giggles could’ve worked on its own, but the way it was presented just didn’t work. I can’t take it seriously if the Joker is now some body snatching super genius who has a penchant for turning teenage boys into tiny versions of himself.

I mean, Harley's not a sane person. Though, in the TAS continuity, unless I'm mistaken, they didn't really delve into her backstory much. Even if they did, it was probably more of a kid-friendly version that writers later made more explicit in the comics. For her falling for the Joker, it's not that he's a charismatic Ted Bundy type, she just fell for him when being his therapist. And, you're expecting 100% realism out of a comic book or animated show? I'm sorry, but even DC at its most realistic requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. On top of that, you expect a universe populated by super people to be in the realm of reality when dealing with the psychology of Harley Quinn? The abusive boyfriend angle also doesn't not make him unpredictable. It just makes him an abusive asshole. Even then, he's not always abusive or Harley's boyfriend in every continuity. And, maybe that was the point? You're not supposed to like the bad guys. Delores Umbridge from Harry Potter was written in the books & films to be the most despicable person possible because, surprise, you're not supposed to like Nazis or oppressors of freedom. But, I also think you're conflating a few different continuities & it's coloring your view on versions of the characters without those traits. You might not wanna do that, since some continuities really get them right while others...don't.

Says you. While the suspension of disbelief is high in that movie for the Joker saving his brain on a chip & waiting for a time in the future to use Tim's body, we got a good story out of it. And, it's not like HE made the chip. He probably got someone else to make it for him. It's a sci-fi & fantasy movie where, in the next 40 or so years, we get this ultra-advanced society on the level of The Jetsons. I think they threw realism out of the window from the moment Batman Beyond was conceived.

At the risk of getting off topic, it seemed painfully obvious that they were going for an edgier vibe compared to B:TAS. Everything from the music, the art style, Bruce Wayne having had a fling with Barbara Gordon, to the fact that the main character has a juvenile record, just seems like the show desperately trying to be a 15 year old’s idea of something cool and edgy. If you’re going to have a superhero show that takes place in high school, wouldn’t it make more sense to go for something sillier and more colorful than B:TAS?

As for it being stupid, I stand by that statement. The main character is a normal looking teenager who is not only able to perfectly fit into a suit that was made for a muscular middle aged man, but who is also somehow able to fight like Batman, despite having no formal training.

To tie things back to the subject of Dragon Ball, the show feels like what FUNimation tried to market GT as.

I mean, techno music because future, altered color pallet to make it stand out, having Batman get together with a woman as a means to give something that happened in the interim, a backstory to the main character so you could see his journey from what he was to who he'd become (tons of heroes have this journey & it gives them a relatable starting place to identify with him at the start). I mean, Bruce Wayne started his journey towards being Batman with his parents dying. Is HE edgy? No, he's sympathetic.
No, you wouldn't. Not everything for high school life is all peaches & cream. Why would a series that takes place in high school be super light & silly, especially for a Batman show? Batman's one of the darkest superheroes, so his successor should have a similar tone. Otherwise, it's not Batman. Pretty sure that was one of the messages of Return of the Joker, where Terry's not Bruce, but he's still Batman, just a different kind of Batman. The show went its own way for being different from its predecessor with these things for a reason.

I mean, doesn't Bruce train him in the way of being Batman? He trained his Robins & Batwoman after recruiting them, so I can't imagine him not doing that for Terry. I also couldn't imagine him not augmenting the suit after bringing Terry on so it fits him properly.

Being a dumb teenager in high school is certainly a lot easier than being an adult. Besides, the entire reason that BB was ever even made was because the higher ups at WB wanted a Batman show that would appeal more to the target demographic (AKA, children). With that in mind, the fact that they decided to make the show this weird Blade Runner meets Batman story is just odd. Hell, Spider-Man: Homecoming involved high school, and that was arguably the MCU’s most lighthearted film to date.

Anyway, I suppose that unlike with how FUNimation handled GT, BB did indeed have the advantage of being built “from the ground up”, but it still seems really odd to me that a show where the main protagonist is a child is somehow edgier than the show where the main character is an adult, in the same way that it’s really dumb how FUNimation tried to market a lighthearted adventure show like GT as this edgy and “badass” successor to DBZ.

Did you even watch GT passed the space stuff? After that, when Baby's introduced, the show gets a LOT darker. At first, the show tried to go back to a similar tone DB had, but after that didn't work like they wanted, they then switched to the darker & edgier tone of Z partway through in a not so jarring way. I mean, you want a jarring way of these tones not mixing at all, go rewatch the Buu Saga. MAN, did that have glaring tone shits & mood whiplashes. I mean, GT's no stranger to those, but it's at least less often than Z towards the end.

How is Homecoming lighthearted? Yeah, it's a lighter film compared to some of the heavier films in the MCU, but that goes in line with Spider-Man being a hero with lighter adventures in general in the comics. It still deals with some heavy shit. I mean, I'd argue The Avengers is a lighter film than Homecoming. The only baggage that movie has is what's carried over from the first Thor film. Hell, even Guardians of the Galaxy is lighter in tone, since it's a space opera that takes place in the MCU.

In the end, Z is a show for a general audience that anyone can enjoy that's also really good & holds up, depending on the dub, years later. Sure, it has problems & some tonal inconsistencies, but nothing's perfect. Same as Batman TAS & BB.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

Well seemingly no other channels in the US were interested in airing Super. I don't think why its only on Adult Swim would confuse the average Joe because they are predisposed to thinking all cartoons are for kids anyway. Although in this day and age there are other ways for kids to discover Dragon Ball, and some are even being introduced to it on Crunchyroll. I was on a bus one sunday morning and overheard a new episode of Super being played on someone's phone, and there was a group attending my last screening of Broly with their mother. Ironically enough is was the Japanese version, which is good because it means the outlets available for kids to discover Dragon Ball on nowadays are keeping them open minded.

[Scsigs]

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

Really? Super was made to cash in on the nostalgia older fans have for DBZ & you're telling us it's not for adults? We're REALLY going with that narrative here? The series explores concepts, such as alternate timelines, universes, a bratty god who wants to destroy all life within the universe & start it over into something he likes, acknowledges death & the seriousness of it, has a character called "Mr. Satan", & has tons of brutal action sequences & it's "just for kids"? Sure, old man who knows what's "for kids", & should wee allow kids to watch Fullmetal Jacket; an R-rated film that explores the brutality of the Vietnam War, because it has several of these things, or Watchmen, another R-rated film about superheroes in a more realistic version of the 1980s that deals with politics, gets pretty gritty, has on-screen nudity & sex, & other things just because it's technically a superhero movie; a genre "for kids"? Get outta here with that bullshit, man.

[MasenkoHA]

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

Really? Super was made to cash in on the nostalgia older fans have for DBZ & you're telling us it's not for adults? We're REALLY going with that narrative here? The series explores concepts, such as alternate timelines, universes, a bratty god who wants to destroy all life within the universe & start it over into something he likes, acknowledges death & the seriousness of it, has a character called "Mr. Satan", & has tons of brutal action sequences & it's "just for kids"? Sure, old man who knows what's "for kids", & should wee allow kids to watch Fullmetal Jacket; an R-rated film that explores the brutality of the Vietnam War, because it has several of these things, or Watchmen, another R-rated film about superheroes in a more realistic version of the 1980s that deals with politics, gets pretty gritty, has on-screen nudity & sex, & other things just because it's technically a superhero movie; a genre "for kids"? Get outta here with that bullshit, man.

D-did you just compare Dragon Ball Super to Full Metal Jacket and Watchmen?

[WittyUsername]

I seriously disagree. Just because B:TAS wasn’t a colorful toy commercial (at least not until it got reworked into TNBA) doesn’t mean it holds up. The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar in the early episodes. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics. I do think that Mask of the Phantasm isn’t too bad, but the series itself? Meh.

As for BB, that show is atrocious, and that includes Return of the Joker. Everything about that stupid show and movie just screams “LOOK AT HOW HIP AND EDGY WE ARE!” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hilariously try hard and stupid.

Anyway, as for Dragon Ball itself, people who are blinded by nostalgia do seem to unfortunately forget that it’s a stupid and poorly written franchise geared towards children.

I mean, the show's animation style is a bit dated (especially with how Justice League's animation was much improved over 10 years later), but that's a result of the time. It's animation is stylized, though, so it helps it hold up better than other cartoons of its era. The artstyle is good for what it had to be, but it could've been better.

How can you look at the Return of the Joker movie with a straight face & say, "This movie is just trying to be hip & edgy"? And, if you seriously don't get why Tim Drake, the Robin from Batman: TAS, being turned into a mini Joker & being presented to Batman by Joker, with all of the mind rape he & Harley subjected him to to hypnotize him into telling him all Batman's secrets, then brainwash him into being a mini Joker to fuck with Batman by turning one of his closest allies into a weapon against him, is disturbing, then I don't know what to say. It's not the image itself that's disturbing. It's the backstory & meaning behind the transformation that makes it so creepy.

Anyways, Dragon Ball itself, yes, is written with kids in mind. The series itself started as a comedic piss-take on Journey to the West, after all, & Toriyama's sense of humor is also very immature, but when Dragon Ball is good, it's damn good. Like, so good it's for more mature audiences good. No, no one's blinded by nostalgia for liking Dragon Ball & thinking it's good. I'd say that the person who thinks that is an elitist prick, but that's just me. Also, I'd only say that the only people affected by nostalgia in the DB fandom are the people who legit still unironically enjoy the old Z dub, since it's not that good. The show itself is pretty good most of the time, but the dub sucks.

Also, if the show sucks, why are you on a forum dedicated to it?

Nothing about Harley Quinn makes sense. Her backstory is that she’s a naive airhead who got a PhD by having sex with her professors, even though that’s not how any of that works. The idea of her being manipulated into falling in love with the Joker is also really stupid. Since when was the Joker some charming Ted Bundy-esque character? Who asked for that? And why does the Joker need to be a domestic abuser? The whole point of the Joker is that he’s an unpredictable force of nature. There’s nothing unpredictable about a bad guy who happens to be an abusive boyfriend. That’s so lazy and manipulative. Not to mention that if Harley Quinn is supposed to represent victims of domestic violence, then that seems extremely insulting and demeaning. Beyond that, her voice and her sense of “humor” are ear gratingly awful.

The idea of the Joker torturing Tim Drake for shits and giggles could’ve worked on its own, but the way it was presented just didn’t work. I can’t take it seriously if the Joker is now some body snatching super genius who has a penchant for turning teenage boys into tiny versions of himself.

I mean, Harley's not a sane person. Though, in the TAS continuity, unless I'm mistaken, they didn't really delve into her backstory much. Even if they did, it was probably more of a kid-friendly version that writers later made more explicit in the comics. For her falling for the Joker, it's not that he's a charismatic Ted Bundy type, she just fell for him when being his therapist. And, you're expecting 100% realism out of a comic book or animated show? I'm sorry, but even DC at its most realistic requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. On top of that, you expect a universe populated by super people to be in the realm of reality when dealing with the psychology of Harley Quinn? The abusive boyfriend angle also doesn't not make him unpredictable. It just makes him an abusive asshole. Even then, he's not always abusive or Harley's boyfriend in every continuity. And, maybe that was the point? You're not supposed to like the bad guys. Delores Umbridge from Harry Potter was written in the books & films to be the most despicable person possible because, surprise, you're not supposed to like Nazis or oppressors of freedom. But, I also think you're conflating a few different continuities & it's coloring your view on versions of the characters without those traits. You might not wanna do that, since some continuities really get them right while others...don't.

Says you. While the suspension of disbelief is high in that movie for the Joker saving his brain on a chip & waiting for a time in the future to use Tim's body, we got a good story out of it. And, it's not like HE made the chip. He probably got someone else to make it for him. It's a sci-fi & fantasy movie where, in the next 40 or so years, we get this ultra-advanced society on the level of The Jetsons. I think they threw realism out of the window from the moment Batman Beyond was conceived.

At the risk of getting off topic, it seemed painfully obvious that they were going for an edgier vibe compared to B:TAS. Everything from the music, the art style, Bruce Wayne having had a fling with Barbara Gordon, to the fact that the main character has a juvenile record, just seems like the show desperately trying to be a 15 year old’s idea of something cool and edgy. If you’re going to have a superhero show that takes place in high school, wouldn’t it make more sense to go for something sillier and more colorful than B:TAS?

As for it being stupid, I stand by that statement. The main character is a normal looking teenager who is not only able to perfectly fit into a suit that was made for a muscular middle aged man, but who is also somehow able to fight like Batman, despite having no formal training.

To tie things back to the subject of Dragon Ball, the show feels like what FUNimation tried to market GT as.

I mean, techno music because future, altered color pallet to make it stand out, having Batman get together with a woman as a means to give something that happened in the interim, a backstory to the main character so you could see his journey from what he was to who he'd become (tons of heroes have this journey & it gives them a relatable starting place to identify with him at the start). I mean, Bruce Wayne started his journey towards being Batman with his parents dying. Is HE edgy? No, he's sympathetic.
No, you wouldn't. Not everything for high school life is all peaches & cream. Why would a series that takes place in high school be super light & silly, especially for a Batman show? Batman's one of the darkest superheroes, so his successor should have a similar tone. Otherwise, it's not Batman. Pretty sure that was one of the messages of Return of the Joker, where Terry's not Bruce, but he's still Batman, just a different kind of Batman. The show went its own way for being different from its predecessor with these things for a reason.

I mean, doesn't Bruce train him in the way of being Batman? He trained his Robins & Batwoman after recruiting them, so I can't imagine him not doing that for Terry. I also couldn't imagine him not augmenting the suit after bringing Terry on so it fits him properly.

Being a dumb teenager in high school is certainly a lot easier than being an adult. Besides, the entire reason that BB was ever even made was because the higher ups at WB wanted a Batman show that would appeal more to the target demographic (AKA, children). With that in mind, the fact that they decided to make the show this weird Blade Runner meets Batman story is just odd. Hell, Spider-Man: Homecoming involved high school, and that was arguably the MCU’s most lighthearted film to date.

Anyway, I suppose that unlike with how FUNimation handled GT, BB did indeed have the advantage of being built “from the ground up”, but it still seems really odd to me that a show where the main protagonist is a child is somehow edgier than the show where the main character is an adult, in the same way that it’s really dumb how FUNimation tried to market a lighthearted adventure show like GT as this edgy and “badass” successor to DBZ.

Did you even watch GT passed the space stuff? After that, when Baby's introduced, the show gets a LOT darker. At first, the show tried to go back to a similar tone DB had, but after that didn't work like they wanted, they then switched to the darker & edgier tone of Z partway through in a not so jarring way. I mean, you want a jarring way of these tones not mixing at all, go rewatch the Buu Saga. MAN, did that have glaring tone shits & mood whiplashes. I mean, GT's no stranger to those, but it's at least less often than Z towards the end.

How is Homecoming lighthearted? Yeah, it's a lighter film compared to some of the heavier films in the MCU, but that goes in line with Spider-Man being a hero with lighter adventures in general in the comics. It still deals with some heavy shit. I mean, I'd argue The Avengers is a lighter film than Homecoming. The only baggage that movie has is what's carried over from the first Thor film. Hell, even Guardians of the Galaxy is lighter in tone, since it's a space opera that takes place in the MCU.

In the end, Z is a show for a general audience that anyone can enjoy that's also really good & holds up, depending on the dub, years later. Sure, it has problems & some tonal inconsistencies, but nothing's perfect. Same as Batman TAS & BB.

I never said Dragon Ball sucked. It has a charm to it. I’m just pointing out that it’s not a well written series.

Regarding Harley Quinn’s backstory, her original backstory as written by Bruce Timm and Paul Dini was specifically that she was a ditz who only made it as far as she did in life because she fucked her college professors. It wasn’t something that the comics came up with later on. This was written by the character’s creators back in 1994. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/OGl8yLr

I also seriously disagree with the notion that making the Joker an abusive boyfriend isn’t predictable. Not to mention that I always imagined the Joker being asexual. That’s just me, though.

Homecoming is a light film. The protagonist is a quirky teenager, the stakes were low, and the only person who died in the entire movie was a bad guy. And no, GotG wasn’t more lighthearted. That film opened with the protagonist’s mother dying of cancer. Anyway, I think it’s probably best that we move in from talking about American superheros, since that isn’t what this forum is for.

Anyway, to get back to the subject of Dragon Ball, GT had its moments of darkness, but on the whole, it was no darker than your typical Dragon Ball story, yet FUNimation tried to market it as this edgy and intense show, which was definitely a ridiculous thing for them to do. Of course, this was early 2000s FUNimation, and back then, treating Dragon Ball as this hardcore property worked pretty well for DBZ, so it’s not shocking that they opted for a similar approach with the sequel series. It’s a good thing they came to their senses by the time the season sets rolled around.

[MasenkoHA]

I never said Dragon Ball sucked. It has a charm to it. I’m just pointing out that it’s not a well written series.

Well yeah it’s a shonen series. Of course the writing isn’t good. It’s more interesting for its visuals and concepts than its actual writing.

. Not to mention that I always imagined the Joker being asexual. That’s just me, though

In Mad love (the comic and the animated adaptation) Harley’s throwing herself at him and he’s more preoccupied with coming up ways to kill Batman than her) his relationship with Harley Quinn doesn’t dispute the idea that’s he asexual. If anything it emphasis it. He keeps Harley around not because he has any sexual or romantic interest in her but because she’s easy to manipulate. If they’re having sex off screen in the DCAU it’s purely to keep her around as a tool and not because he’s attracted to her.

[jjgp1112]

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

Really? Super was made to cash in on the nostalgia older fans have for DBZ & you're telling us it's not for adults? We're REALLY going with that narrative here? The series explores concepts, such as alternate timelines, universes, a bratty god who wants to destroy all life within the universe & start it over into something he likes, acknowledges death & the seriousness of it, has a character called "Mr. Satan", & has tons of brutal action sequences & it's "just for kids"? Sure, old man who knows what's "for kids", & should wee allow kids to watch Fullmetal Jacket; an R-rated film that explores the brutality of the Vietnam War, because it has several of these things, or Watchmen, another R-rated film about superheroes in a more realistic version of the 1980s that deals with politics, gets pretty gritty, has on-screen nudity & sex, & other things just because it's technically a superhero movie; a genre "for kids"? Get outta here with that bullshit, man.

Dragon Ball Super is absolutely, 100% a kids show that also happens to aspire for pulling in a nostalgic adult demographic simply by existing. Japan has different standards for children's media than America. Dealing with death, God's and violence doesn't inherently make something adult. Just look at all the e rated video games out there for one thing.

[ABED]

There's a weird belief on this forum that death is an adult theme. Death doesn't discriminate between young and old. Kids have to deal with death as well.

[MasenkoHA]

There's a weird belief on this forum that death is an adult theme. Death doesn't discriminate between young and old. Kids have to deal with death as well.

A byproduct of most people on this forum growing up on shows that felt the need to censor death I suppose.


It’s not like death doesn’t exist in Western media aimed at kids. Like Disney movies. It’s only because I think a lot of people, at least growing up, mostly watched stuff like Power Rangers and Pokemon and TMNT


It’s weird to me. Pretty sure everyone on here at the age of at least 5 or 6 had some concept of death, right?

Just because you watched shows that were made by people who didn’t want to upset your mom while she supervises your watching habits as she prepares for the church bakesale doesn’t mean you didn’t understand death was a thing

[ABED]

There's a weird belief on this forum that death is an adult theme. Death doesn't discriminate between young and old. Kids have to deal with death as well.

A byproduct of most people on this forum growing up on shows that felt the need to censor death I suppose.


It’s not like death doesn’t exist in Western media aimed at kids. Like Disney movies. It’s only because I think a lot of people, at least growing up, mostly watched stuff like Power Rangers and Pokemon and TMNT


It’s weird to me. Pretty sure everyone on here at the age of at least 5 or 6 had some concept of death, right?

Just because you watched shows that were made by people who didn’t want to upset your mom while she supervises your watching habits as prepares for the church bakesale doesn’t mean you didn’t understand death was a thing

Movies and TV seem to have different restrictions which shows how arbitrary this all is.

[MasenkoHA]

There's a weird belief on this forum that death is an adult theme. Death doesn't discriminate between young and old. Kids have to deal with death as well.

A byproduct of most people on this forum growing up on shows that felt the need to censor death I suppose.


It’s not like death doesn’t exist in Western media aimed at kids. Like Disney movies. It’s only because I think a lot of people, at least growing up, mostly watched stuff like Power Rangers and Pokemon and TMNT


It’s weird to me. Pretty sure everyone on here at the age of at least 5 or 6 had some concept of death, right?

Just because you watched shows that were made by people who didn’t want to upset your mom while she supervises your watching habits as prepares for the church bakesale doesn’t mean you didn’t understand death was a thing

Movies and TV seem to have different restrictions which shows how arbitrary this all is.

They weren’t consistent. Some kids shows were huge sticklers for never saying die or kill but others were okay with it.

Toonami apparently did have a you can’t say kill policy but their edited Dragon ball Z broadcast was still sometimes allowed to say it. But probably because it was their number one show so they were more lenient on what it could and couldn’t do.

And from what I can tell most BS&P’s for kidvid seem to have more of a problem with the words themselves than the actual idea of it. Saying destroy as a substitute for kill is totally okay.

It’s weird. And it’s even weirder for grown adults to be conditioned to think those shows weren’t talking down to them.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, DB kept all references to death on toonami but always edited out the word "kill"

[Scsigs]

I suppose, although it is weird how the English version of Super is exclusively airing on Adult Swim. I feel that might mistakenly give the impression that the series is somehow meant for adults.

Really? Super was made to cash in on the nostalgia older fans have for DBZ & you're telling us it's not for adults? We're REALLY going with that narrative here? The series explores concepts, such as alternate timelines, universes, a bratty god who wants to destroy all life within the universe & start it over into something he likes, acknowledges death & the seriousness of it, has a character called "Mr. Satan", & has tons of brutal action sequences & it's "just for kids"? Sure, old man who knows what's "for kids", & should wee allow kids to watch Fullmetal Jacket; an R-rated film that explores the brutality of the Vietnam War, because it has several of these things, or Watchmen, another R-rated film about superheroes in a more realistic version of the 1980s that deals with politics, gets pretty gritty, has on-screen nudity & sex, & other things just because it's technically a superhero movie; a genre "for kids"? Get outta here with that bullshit, man.

D-did you just compare Dragon Ball Super to Full Metal Jacket and Watchmen?

No. I was making fun of this "it's just for kids" mentality some people seem to have towards something that's either made for a general audience, or a more mature audience just because of some things that are in them. Particularly cartoons made for a kid's network, but the writers wrote it at a level of intelligence that it holds up really well as an adult, giving you new appreciation for it years later. Like, there ARE kid's shows that are made just for kids, no doubt about it, but it's like Teen Titans VS Teen Titans Go! One's a more competently made & written show that many people who watched it as kids like it even more when they reached an age where they can appreciate more aspects of it than when they were younger due to picking up more of the nuances of the writing. The other is clearly a stupid kid's show written only for them that only exists to make the network some quick cash & won't hold up over time.
DBZ is similar to TT in that it can get better as you age. I mean, I watch Dragon Ball Dissection & TFS discuss the franchise & they bring up points that I never thought of sometimes that makes complete sense & help me appreciate it more. It's just that the finer layers of the series was buried beneath a terrible dub for the better part of a decade before Kai came out & got a better dub. Hell, I'd argue there are SOME aspects of each that you can ONLY appreciate as you get older.

I never said Dragon Ball sucked. It has a charm to it. I’m just pointing out that it’s not a well written series.

Regarding Harley Quinn’s backstory, her original backstory as written by Bruce Timm and Paul Dini was specifically that she was a ditz who only made it as far as she did in life because she fucked her college professors. It wasn’t something that the comics came up with later on. This was written by the character’s creators back in 1994. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/OGl8yLr

I also seriously disagree with the notion that making the Joker an abusive boyfriend isn’t predictable. Not to mention that I always imagined the Joker being asexual. That’s just me, though.

Homecoming is a light film. The protagonist is a quirky teenager, the stakes were low, and the only person who died in the entire movie was a bad guy. And no, GotG wasn’t more lighthearted. That film opened with the protagonist’s mother dying of cancer. Anyway, I think it’s probably best that we move in from talking about American superheroes, since that isn’t what this forum is for.

Anyway, to get back to the subject of Dragon Ball, GT had its moments of darkness, but on the whole, it was no darker than your typical Dragon Ball story, yet FUNimation tried to market it as this edgy and intense show, which was definitely a ridiculous thing for them to do. Of course, this was early 2000s FUNimation, and back then, treating Dragon Ball as this hardcore property worked pretty well for DBZ, so it’s not shocking that they opted for a similar approach with the sequel series. It’s a good thing they came to their senses by the time the season sets rolled around.

You kind of imply it's bad when you say the writing is terrible. Yes, it's not always at its best. I have MANY problems with the Buu Saga & a LOT of Super because the writing gets really bad at points, despite the material the writers were given to work with. Though in the Buu Saga's case, Toriyama just had so many ideas, he either added in stupid ways of getting around already established things, or he blatantly ignored common sense in favor of doing too many things so there was an overly long saga at the end. Then there's Super's depiction of Goku, which is so inconsistent that it's anger-inducing. But, when Dragon Ball is good, it's damn good.

I mean, Harley isn't a character that's supposed to be 100% in line with reality. The Joker isn't either. They exist in comic book universes that have characters like Superman. If there are inconsistencies, yeah, fine point, but I think you're conflating all continuities with these characters where they don't have some of the more objectionable inconsistencies with the few that do.

I mean, they skipped over the first 16 episodes during the initial TV run due to them not being what people would've expected with a sequel series to Z. The series going back to what DB was didn't really work as is. I mean, the fact that GT went back to a similar tone & style to Z after only 16-20 episodes shows that they weren't the only ones to think of this. They were just furthering what the Japanese writers already did back in 1996. Super harkens back to DB as well, but only in the humor. Super has a better mix of humor & lighter episodes than GT did on the whole when it's not a mood whiplash moment that gives it a different feel to Z, but it does its storytelling in a much more organic way by continuing the trend of the characters fighting more powerful opponents that come along. DB explored the Earth. Z explored space & some mythology. Super explores the mythology & alternate universes/timelines. GT just didn't do much different than Z, which is why FUNi chose to market it as more like Z.

Dragon Ball Super is absolutely, 100% a kids show that also happens to aspire for pulling in a nostalgic adult demographic simply by existing. Japan has different standards for children's media than America. Dealing with death, God's and violence doesn't inherently make something adult. Just look at all the e rated video games out there for one thing.

I mean, I know Japan has different sets of standards to certain age demographics. I'm just saying arguing DB is "only for kids" is, in my opinion, utter bullshit to say. We're on a fan forum discussing it, after all, years after, if what the other person said is true, we wouldn't be here. Yes, kid's can watch it. It's perfectly fine for kids to watch DB. However, my argument isn't that. My argument is that it's not only for kids & can only be fully appreciated when you're older. That's just me, though.

There's a weird belief on this forum that death is an adult theme. Death doesn't discriminate between young and old. Kids have to deal with death as well.

I know death doesn't discriminate. I also know kids have to deal with death. My father died when I was 15 & my brother was 13. Some really brilliant kid's media has come out that deals with death. My actual argument is that it's a more mature subject which, for kids, requires a more mature or delicate way of explaining for kids most of the time, which is why death is treated very seriously in most circumstances. I am of the opinion that kids are smarter & more comprehensive than most people think & kid's media should be stepped up to treat them that way. I mean, one of the most defining moments in Z is early on when Goku sacrifices himself so Piccolo can kill Raditz & it's in something that was made with a kid audience in mind & is treated very seriously. Hell, even before that with Krillin dying. Those were defining moments where the series got more mature & took a step in the direction it's in now. It's not only here in the West. Japan treats death with the seriousness it deserves too. It's just that they're more open to letting it in media for kids, which are mostly aimed at a general audience, which is why I say these things aren't only for kids.

Yeah, DB kept all references to death on toonami but always edited out the word "kill"

Yeah, the initial Saban dub replacing "kill" with "Sent to an alternate dimension," then the later FUNi dub just using "destroy" & the like. Why is "Destroy" the default censorship? Really? A more appropriate word couldn't be chosen? I mean, this is almost as bad a sKingdom Hearts Coded defaulting "hurt" for all instances when other words would make more sense.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Not sure how unpopular it is, but I'll say it. Sabat's performance as Yi Xing Long (also known as Omega Shenron in the dub) is the weakest character voice he's done for the series. It's too rough, mumbly and grating to listen to. I prefer Noah Umholtz from Blue Water's GT dub because while it may be a bland voice the delivery at least feels more natural.

In the unlikely event Funimation ever redubs GT or Yi Xing Long makes an appearance in future Dragon Ball content I want to see Sabat do away with the old performance and go in a completely different direction because I find it hard to imagine how even his improved acting ccould salvage that performance.

[ABED]

Not sure how unpopular it is, but I'll say it. Sabat's performance as Yi Xing Long (also known as Omega Shenron in the dub) is the weakest character voice he's done for the series. It's too rough, mumbly and grating to listen to. I prefer Noah Umholtz from Blue Water's GT dub because while it may be a bland voice the delivery at least feels more natural.

In the unlikely event Funimation ever redubs GT or Yi Xing Long makes an appearance in future Dragon Ball content I want to see Sabat do away with the old performance and go in a completely different direction because I find it hard to imagine how even his improved acting ccould salvage that performance.

How can you tell with such heavy filtering?

[sunsetshimmer]

Not sure how unpopular it is, but I'll say it. Sabat's performance as Yi Xing Long (also known as Omega Shenron in the dub) is the weakest character voice he's done for the series. It's too rough, mumbly and grating to listen to. I prefer Noah Umholtz from Blue Water's GT dub because while it may be a bland voice the delivery at least feels more natural.

In the unlikely event Funimation ever redubs GT or Yi Xing Long makes an appearance in future Dragon Ball content I want to see Sabat do away with the old performance and go in a completely different direction because I find it hard to imagine how even his improved acting ccould salvage that performance.

I think he sounded...okay in dub, but he sounds awful in Xenoverse. I can barely understand what is he saying.
I think Syn Shenron had better voice in this dub. Why the f**k did they even change his voice actor for transformation that barely has any visual changes? And what's worse after Gogeta made him revert to previous form, they STILL kept his Omega voice and called him "Omega Shenron".

I swear they should apologize for making such terrible dub.

[Tian]

Why the f**k did they even change his voice actor for transformation that barely has any visual changes?

It's Chris Bevins*' fault. He casted Sabat as Omega because "Omega Shenron was the ultimate being by absorbing all dragon balls it would make sense for the character to sound like the dragon shenron which Sabat voiced".

For me, they should have kept Carter instead of doing that "brilliant" decision.

*GT voice director