Vic Mignogna

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2792
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:01 pm

BlueChi wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:17 am
unless you want to say the people who vouched for him are all liars.
Liars, no. Certainly in denial most likely. Hell, if millions upon MILLIONS of total and abject perfect strangers (who ONLY know the guy through his music and videos) can jump through enough mental gymnastics on Michael Jackson's behalf, imagine then if you're a family member or super close friend of his?

And people who defend him keep continually bringing Jackson's own childhood abuse and his eccentricities and personality quirks into things: which only tells me that the people who defend him, in a great majority of instances, have so deeply personalized this man, that they feel like they know the guy personally because he's been SO culturally ubiquitous and meant SO dearly much to them throughout their whole entire lives.

And look, for a case as EXTREME as Michael Jackson's, I actually DO at least KIND OF get that. Up to a certain point anyway.

Like I said for starters, I grew up super into a lot of his music and a bunch of his various media projects as a kid: there were tons of aspects of the guy that I grew up admiring and even idolizing. When I was little, I used to constantly rewatch and closely study this late-night special that aired back in the 80s about Michael Jackson's dancing that got fairly in-depth into his rehearsal routines & dance drills and so on.

And I would be worlds beyond stunned and overwhelmed and utterly transfixed by how much IMMENSE dedication and discipline he put into honing dance as both a physical & artistic craft (kinda hit me in much the same way that martial arts in general did throughout my life), and I empathized with a few (though hardly all) of his personality quirks, like his dedication to artistic experimentation and his constant drive to creatively challenging himself and to always grow/change as an artist.

And beyond all that, like most people in general I'm more than well aware of what MJ's father did to him as a kid, and my heart still cracks in half for Michael as a small kid and what Joe Jackson's physical and mental/emotional abuse CLEARLY did to him (and very possibly even played some kind of a role in MJ's later sexual proclivities with children): Michael literally and physically wore the mental/emotional impact of that abuse on his face via all the cosmetic surgery (his father used to mock and belittle his face and physical appearance cruelly and routinely growing up as a disciplinary tactic: just utterly revolting).

The guy basically surgically disfigured himself as an adult on account of the way his father treated him as a boy. No matter what sexual horrors Jackson may (or mmmmmmmaybe may not have, but doubtful) have visited upon the kids at Neverland, its almost impossible NOT to feel at least SOME shred of sympathy and empathy for the guy.

Abuse and trauma, in a vast majority of cases in life, is something that often just keeps on getting passed down and passed down and passed down, from one person to the next and the next, having repercussions and reverberations across whole entire generations. Hell, god only knows what might've happened to Joseph Jackson in his youth that possibly might've lead to HIM horribly abusing his own kids, including Michael.

But there's a HUGE distinction to be drawn between Michael Jackson the abused boy and Michael Jackson the (again, overwhelmingly likely at this point) sexually predatory adult. And it is indeed VERY much possible to feel IMMENSELY bad for the tragedy of the former while at the same time making NO excuses or apologies whatsoever for the horrible actions of the latter.

But the bigger point here is: we DON'T know the guy. NONE of us do. And yet SO MANY people all across the world are clearly SO touched by his music and his cultural impact that SO MANY people so strongly, passionately feel like they know him and voraciously, vigorously defend him like they're defending a beloved close friend or family member. Which of course, he fucking ISN'T.

Its really NOT a million miles removed, psychologically, from some of the (more good-faith at least) Mignogna defenders here: the sheer scale is just VASTLY, immeasurably larger of course. Same goes really for almost ANY of the celebrity #MeToo cases. People connect with a piece of art, they feel that they have some connection with the artist: but apart from some maybe VERY broad aspects of their personality (that they let shine through in their art at least), WE DON'T FUCKING KNOW THESE PEOPLE. They AREN'T our friends or loved ones.

We owe them literally NOTHING in the way of the same sort of benefit of the doubt we might very well give very super close friends, family, and loved ones who we may not have anything other than their word as a close, trusted people in our lives to go by. These people in the public light are just that: they're just people, no different on a basic, fundamental level at their core than anyone else among the rest of us here.

At the end of the day, no matter WHO a person is, no matter HOW MUCH we THINK we "know" them or how much we think what some vague, abstraction of an idea of them represents to us: if someone does something monstrously terrible to another human being (particularly in this case to small children), then NONE of that should buy them ANY "extra" credibility or good will. You don't get a "get out of something heinous" free card, just for being charming or gifted or popular enough. Even on as DEEPLY PRIMAL a level as Michael Jackson was for literally BILLIONS of people throughout the world.

And that's an ESPECIALLY important lesson that society at large NEEDS to learn, particularly from a case like MJ's: since once again, it was without a doubt his IMMENSE wealth, power, fame, and overall global-adoration that allowed him to (again, in the now VERY likely event that he did these crimes) get away with this continually throughout his ENTIRE adult life and NEVER be stopped or face justice for any of it.

And I need to stress here what an IMMENSE fucking tragedy it is, on top of the ALREADY immense tragedy of the guy's personal life unto itself, that a guy like him who is in no small part responsible for a metric TON of genuine and legitimate mending of racial tensions and divisions between African Americans and whites throughout U.S. culture also happens to be guilty of something so monstrously vile, and thus forever horribly staining even THAT incredibly wonderful, and crucially important legacy of his. Rest assured: there are absolutely NO "winners" in a case like this.

The main point being: if millions of adoring fans who are ultimately total and complete strangers to a guy like Michael Jackson can bury their heads in the sand for him to THIS insane of a degree... imagine what his closest family and loved ones are capable and willing to overlook and blot out from their sight?

So do I think that EVERYONE close to Michael Jackson who has EVER "vouched for him" publicly is lying? Of course I don't. I think that when a certain person who is particularly close and dear to you does something horrible, no matter HOW blindingly obvious it is, you just don't WANT to believe it.

But to pull from a SUPER inappropriately dorky source for a very all-too perfectly fitting quote: Reality doesn't care if you believe it.

And lastly, I at least SOMEWHAT understand why this kind of conversation might need to be had publicly about a person of such immense weight in societal impact as Michael Jackson. That it needs to be had for some people with regards to - once again - Vic "Random McNobody Who (Badly) Voiced Some Dumb Japanese Cartoon Badguy a Couple of Times" Mignogna is just the absolute mountain HEIGHTS of absurd and pathetic on a titanically embarrassing scale.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Dr. Casey
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:05 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm

Just to throw something out there for people who dislike/hate the status quo in regards to sexual assault, there should be massive leaps forward in understanding of the human brain throughout the 2020s. There's multiple reasons for this, though one important one is a device from a company called OpenWater that's expected to have test versions shipped out to people this summer (it's been scrutinized for the past several years during its development cycle by some of the harshest skeptics around, and I've never heard any testimonies that don't believe it's a good product, or witnessed any skeptics that aren't ultimately converted to being believers). These devices are like headbands that constantly scan brain activity around the clock, at resolutions that are far superior to what MRIs provide. This should cause a huge explosion in understanding of the brain throughout the coming decade.

It should be perfectly possible, technically speaking, to determine guilt or innocence come the middle to late 2020s in rape trials by using new lie detector tests that are actually valid and reliable (as opposed to the more snake oil-y version that was created more than a century ago). That doesn't account for artificial factors like legal red tape or societal acceptance that would probably push it back to the 2030s, assuming that society would ultimately accept it at all.

Just something to keep in mind. As terrible as the current paradigm is, it's a system that doesn't have to remain in place forever - or even for much longer at all. Things would definitely be a lot simpler and less messy if come the later 2020s/somewhere in the 2030s, a new kind of lie detector test - a kind that actually reads the brain rather than various attributes that can easily be completely unrelated (heart rate and various other factors can easily be impacted simply by the stress of having such a test administered) - was able to make sexual abuse cases open and shut, rather than something which rarely leaves behind any tangible evidence. It could also make victims more willing to come forward since they'll finally have a reliable tool with which to prove their charges, and might deter a certain percentage of rapists from committing the crime in the first place if they know that the chances of being penalized are much higher than they were during the 2010s and prior.
Princess Snake avatars courtesy of Kunzait, Chibi Goku avatar from Velasa.

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:07 pm

I've been keeping quiet as news of legal action towards the allegations being pursued have wanted me to continue being skeptical until the full story and facts are properly presented. And I would hope a more public investigation would cause people to reevaluate their initial, and rightly emotional opinions. But given what I'm reading about MJ on here, it's clear that even if Mignogna got complete retractions from the involved parties after taking the to court, some people would still think what they want despite evidence. If 2 grand juries, 14 not guilty verdicts, and over a decade of FBI investigations isn't at least enough to presume innocence until some actually implicating evidence comes out then there's no helping you. And for me to start believing that documentary, I would first have to believe that one of its subject committed perjury to protect his abuser. That's far too big a pill for me to swallow.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
XanatosVanBadass
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:33 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:07 pm
I've been keeping quiet as news of legal action towards the allegations being pursued have wanted me to continue being skeptical until the full story and facts are properly presented. And I would hope a more public investigation would cause people to reevaluate their initial, and rightly emotional opinions. But given what I'm reading about MJ on here, it's clear that even if Mignogna got complete retractions from the involved parties after taking the to court, some people would still think what they want despite evidence. If 2 grand juries, 14 not guilty verdicts, and over a decade of FBI investigations isn't at least enough to presume innocence until some actually implicating evidence comes out then there's no helping you. And for me to start believing that documentary, I would first have to believe that one of its subject committed perjury to protect his abuser. That's far too big a pill for me to swallow.
Except the doc does actually go into the mindset of a victim at that time and why one would lie under oath to protect Michael. I mean, it’s happened in other instances as well, so I’m not sure this is some unbelievable thing.

Hell putting aside that. . . Once again court of law does NOT equal court of public opinion. We can have whatever views on Vic or Jacko we want. So, I with you and your ilk would knock that argument off already. Like, right now.

User avatar
Young-Jah
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:07 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Young-Jah » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:35 pm

Ik, can we please get over with the MJ thing, and talk about it in another day.
For Funi, this is going to ruin their reputation as a English licensing company.
It's My Boy, your Boy, his Boy! ~OSW Review HD

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:33 pm
Except the doc does actually go into the mindset of a victim at that time and why one would lie under oath to protect Michael. I mean, it’s happened in other instances as well, so I’m not sure this is some unbelievable thing.
Does it explain why as an adult with the whole world watching he didn't finally put an end to his abuser in a court of law? Or that 4 years later he remembered him favorably when he died? Or that 3 years after that he wanted to direct the Cirque du Soleil tribute to Jackson? Or his breakdown a year after that because his career had "crumble[d]". And what about him shopping a book at publishers during the same year as his finances were in trouble? Or that a year after that he filed a $1.5 billion civil suit against his estate that was dismissed in probate court, and that the other subject of the doc was also part of this suit?
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:33 pm
Hell putting aside that. . . Once again court of law does NOT equal court of public opinion. We can have whatever views on Vic or Jacko we want. So, I with you and your ilk would knock that argument off already. Like, right now.
The fact you value the court of public opinion over a court of law is a problem. I prefer the one that requires actual evidence that can survive scrutiny over hate mobs. And you're completely allowed to believe whatever you want about anyone despite evidence. I would just kindly ask you to refrain from dismissing my point of view if you want yours to be valued. If you want me to change my view on things I invite you to actually engage with my points. You're not a mod, you don't get to tell me what to do on here.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16632
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:51 pm

OK, well I'm a moderator, and I can tell all y'all "show me the rape kit results" folks to knock it the ever living fuck off.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:55 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:51 pm
OK, well I'm a moderator, and I can tell all y'all "show me the rape kit results" folks to knock it the ever living fuck off.
Can you tell me what rules that breaks? It's odd that when I ask for some mild civility I'm instead met with more aggression.

I'd also like you to both not put words in my mouth and not group me with anyone I do not want to. Thanks.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

superfan2024
Regular
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by superfan2024 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:11 pm

Who knew a voice actor could cause this much chaos in this fandom.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17973
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:32 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 pm
The fact you value the court of public opinion over a court of law is a problem.
OJ was found innocent; that doesn't make it true. Is anyone here suggesting we go Dexter Morgan on anyone? I don't see the issue of anyone reaching a rational independent conclusion different from the court's.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:32 pm
OJ was found innocent; that doesn't make it true. Is anyone here suggesting we go Dexter Morgan on anyone? I don't see the issue of anyone reaching a rational independent conclusion different from the court's.
The OJ case brought up numerous pieces of evidence that can easily lead many to believe he wasn't innocent. MJ's case brought to light evidence of the complete opposite. If Mignogna's case goes to court and if during the discovery process evidence that paints him not innocent is found despite a not guilty verdict, I can totally understand people still believing Vic to be a terrible person. Myself likely included. My point was that the latter has not even happened yet.

I see nothing rational with believing ideas that run contrary to evidence presented to a court, not just it's decision. And again, I have no problem with people doing so in spite of that. I also never suggested that anyone was suggesting going Dexter on people.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:45 pm

Leaving Neverland is pretty much a must watch. Stars get way too much leeway in our society.

#IstandWithVic is such an insane stance to take. You know nothing about this man's character. You just know he did some voices in cartoons you liked.
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:07 am
I get separating art from artist, but given the nature of the crime, it will have a negative effect on my ability to enjoy his music. For example we know for a fact that Chris Benoit murdered his wife and child before killing himself. Even though he's one of the all time greatest professional wrestlers, I haven't been able to bring myself to watch a single match of his since 2007.
Yeah, I still can't watch Wrestlemania 20, even though it's one of the best Wrestlemanias ever. Seeing him and Eddie together with the knowledge of what would happen with both of them over the course of just 2 years is tough.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17973
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:43 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:32 pm
OJ was found innocent; that doesn't make it true. Is anyone here suggesting we go Dexter Morgan on anyone? I don't see the issue of anyone reaching a rational independent conclusion different from the court's.
The OJ case brought up numerous pieces of evidence that can easily lead many to believe he wasn't innocent. MJ's case brought to light evidence of the complete opposite. If Mignogna's case goes to court and if during the discovery process evidence that paints him not innocent is found despite a not guilty verdict, I can totally understand people still believing Vic to be a terrible person. Myself likely included. My point was that the latter has not even happened yet.

I see nothing rational with believing ideas that run contrary to evidence presented to a court, not just it's decision. And again, I have no problem with people doing so in spite of that. I also never suggested that anyone was suggesting going Dexter on people.
Are courts infallible? No, they are made up of human beings. While the justice system has to treat him as innocent, private citizens don't. I'm not suggesting vigilante justice, but refusing to work with the guy or associate with him if you believe he's not a good person is a legitimate choice.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
XanatosVanBadass
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:52 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 pm
Does it explain why as an adult with the whole world watching he didn't finally put an end to his abuser in a court of law? Or that 4 years later he remembered him favorably when he died? Or that 3 years after that he wanted to direct the Cirque du Soleil tribute to Jackson? Or his breakdown a year after that because his career had "crumble[d]". And what about him shopping a book at publishers during the same year as his finances were in trouble? Or that a year after that he filed a $1.5 billion civil suit against his estate that was dismissed in probate court, and that the other subject of the doc was also part of this suit?
I believe it does touch on some of this, yes. Though I’m not going to narrate the whole fucking thing to you. The doc does talk a lot about his feelings of denial of what happened to him actually being abuse as well as his genuine love for Michael. Plus his ability to compartmentalize and separate what happened to him.
The fact you value the court of public opinion over a court of law is a problem. I prefer the one that requires actual evidence that can survive scrutiny over hate mobs. And you're completely allowed to believe whatever you want about anyone despite evidence. I would just kindly ask you to refrain from dismissing my point of view if you want yours to be valued. If you want me to change my view on things I invite you to actually engage with my points. You're not a mod, you don't get to tell me what to do on here.
I don’t value it more. I acknowledge them as two separate things. Especially considering the flawed justice system we have. Or, do you think we should have let OJ back into society with open arms merely because he was technically found not guilty. As opposed to rightly being treated like an outcast by much of the world?

EDIT: Ok, I was beaten to this point. Never mind. My bad.
Last edited by XanatosVanBadass on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Young-Jah
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:07 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Young-Jah » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:53 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:45 pm
Leaving Neverland is pretty much a must watch. Stars get way too much leeway in our society.

#IstandWithVic is such an insane stance to take. You know nothing about this man's character. You just know he did some voices in cartoons you liked.
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:07 am
I get separating art from artist, but given the nature of the crime, it will have a negative effect on my ability to enjoy his music. For example we know for a fact that Chris Benoit murdered his wife and child before killing himself. Even though he's one of the all time greatest professional wrestlers, I haven't been able to bring myself to watch a single match of his since 2007.
Yeah, I still can't watch Wrestlemania 20, even though it's one of the best Wrestlemanias ever. Seeing him and Eddie together with the knowledge of what would happen with both of them over the course of just 2 years is tough.
Benoit wouldn't do anything on his family.
If he didn't did what he did on that night, he would still be alive.
It's My Boy, your Boy, his Boy! ~OSW Review HD

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 pm
Are courts infallible? No, they are made up of human beings.
I agree human beings are fallible. But I'm not sure why this point is being applied as point of contention. This could apply to people on both sides of the issue.
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 pm
While the justice system has to treat him as innocent, private citizens don't.
I never said you had to.
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:48 pm
I'm not suggesting vigilante justice, but refusing to work with the guy or associate with him if you believe he's not a good person is a legitimate choice.
I haven't ever suggested otherwise.

I think you bring up interesting points. It just seems like the majority aren't particularly pertinent to my own.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17973
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:00 pm

Okay, then in a sentence or two, sum up what point you're making regarding this issue because I'm confused apparently.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:02 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:00 pm
Okay, then in a sentence or two, sum up what point you're making regarding this issue because I'm confused apparently.
I've already said my piece. A mod said to "to knock it the ever living fuck off" and I don't want you or myself to get in trouble. Sorry.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
Kokonoe
Not Banned
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:12 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:07 pm
I've been keeping quiet as news of legal action towards the allegations being pursued have wanted me to continue being skeptical until the full story and facts are properly presented. And I would hope a more public investigation would cause people to reevaluate their initial, and rightly emotional opinions. But given what I'm reading about MJ on here, it's clear that even if Mignogna got complete retractions from the involved parties after taking the to court, some people would still think what they want despite evidence. If 2 grand juries, 14 not guilty verdicts, and over a decade of FBI investigations isn't at least enough to presume innocence until some actually implicating evidence comes out then there's no helping you. And for me to start believing that documentary, I would first have to believe that one of its subject committed perjury to protect his abuser. That's far too big a pill for me to swallow.
Once again how do you prove sexual assault from years ago? How do you even prove it in the current time frame? If there are no witnesses, no camera recordings then it's very much he said she said. The truth is there is no way to actual prove these things 90% of the time unless it's a full on rape or someone else was there.

I also have to point out that when 50+ women are claiming you assaulted them, that raises very bright colored red flags. Women aren't trying to bring men down en masse. I've made this point a few times in the thread but I felt it needed to be repeated cause there is a side that is so focused on the evidence but not on the sheer numbers of people claiming he touched them inappropriately without consent.

It's not like 1 or 2 people this is a ton of people! Way too many to be give this man benefit of the doubt.

And and call it speculation but idk why any grown man would be hugging a child like this.

Image
Image

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:25 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:41 am
Pretend Mignogna is someone who not only WASN'T a part of all that, but also WASN'T someone who you thought you "knew" from meeting and interacting with him a bunch of times at conventions, fan events, meet & greets, and that he doesn't have a fangirl cult and doesn't have a social media presence as a Z-tier celebrity.

Wipe away ALL of your history of personal emotional bias in wanting to think that this guy is saintly and awesome. Which frankly ought to be BOUNDLESSLY more of an easy task to do with THIS random schmuck than it should be to do with a guy of, once again, Michael Jackson's raw, towering cultural stature.

Would you look at some regular, random dude, who had COUNTLESS dozens and dozens and dozens of different, COMPLETELY unconnected accusations that he was overly gropey and handsy with women, the vast swath of whom were very-much underage girls, throughout his professional workplace (wherever that happened to be) where he'd be around a lot of young girls (maybe in this hypothetical scenario, he works at a school or something) in anything even CLOSE TO the same forgiving light?

Would you still give this dude SO much leeway and SO much benefit of the doubt if there were actual photo evidence of him being over-familiar with these girls, and if the accusations stretched back more than 25 years ago? Would one of the victims who publicly accused him being KIND OF short-fused about it REALLY sway you THAT hard and THAT starkly into thinking "Well MAYBE the guy's innocent, and its all one big conspiracy to take him down because THIS ONE PERSON among his DOZENS of accusers was kinda, slightly, mildly testy about it in her tone and tenor when she called him out"?

Again: wipe away ALL of your own personal baggage that many of you are almost UNQUESTIONABLY bringing into things here. Your growing up with FUNimation's DBZ, you loving Broly as a kid, you also getting into their dub of FMA or whatever else, you going to all these fan conventions, you getting Vic's autograph and chatting him up for a bit, and thinking he's the nicest, coolest guy ever. Throw away ALL of that COMPLETELY for just a second here. Just look at his case as if he were just some bum off the street.

Would you STILL react with the same degree of hyper-scrutiny toward the victims/accusers?
I espoused a very similar sentiment a few pages back, but I must admit that this is a much more erudite and impactful way of putting it.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

Locked