Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[WeLoveBroly]

Bit concerned that ppl are making things up as they go along

According to V Jump Buuhan is on par with ssj3 goku and contradicts Toriyama who said that Bibidi did not create Buu.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079 ... 16705?s=19

It is ludicrous to have ssj3 goku weaker than mystic gohan unless somehow kid buu is stronger than buuhan which also makes 0 sense.

[ankokudaishogun]

Old news and promotional materials should always be taken with a grain of salt

that said, link to the transcription of Jiren vs Core Area Warriors from the Arcade(which is the only source of canon for Heroes)
viewtopic.php?p=1586425#p1586425

[ruler9871]

Bit concerned that ppl are making things up as they go along

According to V Jump Buuhan is on par with ssj3 goku and contradicts Toriyama who said that Bibidi did not create Buu.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079 ... 16705?s=19

It is ludicrous to have ssj3 goku weaker than mystic gohan unless somehow kid buu is stronger than buuhan which also makes 0 sense.

There is no way SSJ3 Goku could be stronger than Mystic Gohan in the Buu saga.

[Bullza]

Theres no way Super Saiyan 3 Goku was intended to be nearly that strong going by the manga. He was meant to more powerful than Fat Buu and Kid Buu and weaker than Super Buu and that was it.

Even in the anime he was losing to Buutenks.

At best he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan according to Toei what with him defeating Hirudegarn whereas Gohan was slapped about but that's it.

[ruler9871]

Theres no way Super Saiyan 3 Goku was intended to be nearly that strong going by the manga. He was meant to more powerful than Fat Buu and Kid Buu and weaker than Super Buu and that was it.

Even in the anime he was losing to Buutenks.

At best he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan according to Toei what with him defeating Hirudegarn whereas Gohan was slapped about but that's it.

The Hirudegarn movie was Post-Buu arc, so Goku could have surpassed Gohan later.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Theres no way Super Saiyan 3 Goku was intended to be nearly that strong going by the manga. He was meant to more powerful than Fat Buu and Kid Buu and weaker than Super Buu and that was it.

Even in the anime he was losing to Buutenks.

At best he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan according to Toei what with him defeating Hirudegarn whereas Gohan was slapped about but that's it.

Even then, the Goku that did better in movie 13 we Post Buu saga, which he would've had enough to time to surpass Ultimate gohan

Honestly, the manga made it clear that even regular super buu (who was weaker than ssj3 gotenks, slightly) required fusion from goku and vegeta.

So yeah, like you said, caps below suoer buu and can't be anything more.

[wolflonnie]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that, at the time, Goku was intended to be weaker than Super Buu, but not as much as people are making up to. Like x1000 times weaker or whatever
It's honestly some silly idea that was passed around. SSJ Gotenks post ROSAT never was comparable at all to Super Buu. It was all a freaking gag that somebody had the idea to take seriously!
What I think is that Toriyama intended this sort of scale: SSJ Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku fully charged (blow to defeat Kid Buu in one shot) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Goku SSJ3 uncharged.

Something like this pretty much, whereas Super Buu would've had a clear advantage against SSJ3 Goku, but not as much as people think.
I mean I can see no problem Buu saga SSJ3 Goku having a fair match against SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan and not be threated as literal dirt.
I don't know where this idea that he's soooo much weak started from.

[SupremeKai25]

Also regarding Heroes, Fused Zamasu must be insanely stronger now, since he survived being erased by Zeno. Who knows how many Zenkai boosts he got thanks to his Saiyan body.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t keep up with the other medias other than anime, so, for Episode 9, I would say it’s pretty much this.

UIS Goku > Stoic Jiren = SS3 Cumber > Zamas > Oren Vegeta > Kamin > SS Trunks

[Zamasu55]

I don’t keep up with the other medias other than anime, so, for Episode 9, I would say it’s pretty much this.

UIS Goku > Stoic Jiren = SS3 Cumber > Zamas > Oren Vegeta > Kamin > SS Trunks

Jiren was holding back a lot against everyone, and was having the edge on Cumber to the point that Hearts had to interrupt the fight.

[Zamasu55]

Also regarding Heroes, Fused Zamasu must be insanely stronger now, since he survived being erased by Zeno. Who knows how many Zenkai boosts he got thanks to his Saiyan body.

The show gave us no information about it, we only have Fuu's statement: "They'll be revived soon". So was Hearts dead too? Who knows.

[Koitsukai]

Well we don't really know how much power Jiren was using aside from the fact he wasn't using his Limit Breaker form.

Do people think he's a match for Super Saiyan 3 Cunber? The fight was so brief I didn't think much of it but I suppose he could be.

Full Power Jiren was about as strong as Ultra Instinct Omen Goku. That was in the ToP though, this Goku could be stronger from training which might be why he one shot Oren.

I think Jiren was way stronger than Cumber Ss3. He was dodging him easily, Cumber got his aura on, and Jiren knocked it out with just one hit, then Cumber turns SS3 and Jiren still had the upper hand, making Cumber's transformation look like nothing, welcomed it with a kick in the gut. If Hearts didn't intervene, Cumber would be no more.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t keep up with the other medias other than anime, so, for Episode 9, I would say it’s pretty much this.

UIS Goku > Stoic Jiren = SS3 Cumber > Zamas > Oren Vegeta > Kamin > SS Trunks

Jiren was holding back a lot against everyone, and was having the edge on Cumber to the point that Hearts had to interrupt the fight.

I’m counting that he was holding back. There are greater levels, like half-serious Jiren, serious Jiren, full power Jiren, PTSD Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Guys, go read the game translations of the arc. Jiren is probbably on par with hearts. He is stronger than ssj3 cumber in the games definitely. And the anime also implied it.

[ruler9871]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that, at the time, Goku was intended to be weaker than Super Buu, but not as much as people are making up to. Like x1000 times weaker or whatever
It's honestly some silly idea that was passed around. SSJ Gotenks post ROSAT never was comparable at all to Super Buu. It was all a freaking gag that somebody had the idea to take seriously!
What I think is that Toriyama intended this sort of scale: SSJ Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku fully charged (blow to defeat Kid Buu in one shot) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Goku SSJ3 uncharged.

Something like this pretty much, whereas Super Buu would've had a clear advantage against SSJ3 Goku, but not as much as people think.
I mean I can see no problem Buu saga SSJ3 Goku having a fair match against SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan and not be threated as literal dirt.
I don't know where this idea that he's soooo much weak started from.

By scaling, there's an at least 10x (likely higher) power gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga (because SSJ1 Gotenks even before going into the Rosat was stated to have the power to easily kill Fat Buu, something Goku could only do in SSJ3). That's where the idea comes from.

[Gogeta_Blue]

Didn't Base Cumber more or less stalemate Kaioken Blue Vegetto? If Jiren is at least as strong as SSJ3 Cumber then he and UI Goku are monsters. Good lord.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Didn't Base Cumber more or less stalemate Kaioken Blue Vegetto? If Jiren is at least as strong as SSJ3 Cumber then he and UI Goku are monsters. Good lord.

The fact that they are stronger than ssj3 cumber now means that they had insane gains after the ToP. Considering Base cumber in the game was stated to be stronger than. Beerus and ToP Jiren. Seems to be the case considering that a current blue fusion is beyond beerus at this point, and cumber surpasses or is on par with them (changes in iterations of the story) in his lower ssj forms.

[Hugo Boss]

Considering Base cumber in the game was stated to be stronger than. Beerus and ToP Jiren.

Can you provide a source for that?

[Rakurai]

Considering Base cumber in the game was stated to be stronger than. Beerus and ToP Jiren.

Can you provide a source for that?

https://youtu.be/3JONVAwaWYg?t=152

"His strength is different from Beerus-sama's and Jiren's... it's getting me pretty excited!"

Note he relates their strengths in an ambiguous manner (違う強さ). Not the same thing as saying Cumber > Beerus and Jiren. I believe it was alluding to Cumber's evil ki more than anything else.

[dragon boss z]

That was before the Ribrianne fight, and Krillin in the ToP is WAY stronger than he ever was in Z (as shown when he matched Base Gohan, who gave Lavender trouble in the preliminaries, who is stronger or equal to Basil, who fought on par with a Post-Buu saga Fat Buu).

Buu was stronger than even ssj Gohan imo, and Basil was weaker than Buu even with the steroid power up. And there is no evidence Buu is any stronger than he was during the Buu saga. Krillin only beat base Gohan with skill, and a few arcs prior he was scared of Frieza soldiers. Krillin got stronger than he was during Z, but he was still weaker than any ssj.