Things that grind your gears

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Lord Beerus
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:08 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Indeed. Though, Super had set a pattern of zero consequences, so it was pretty obvious the reset button was going to be hit at the end, despite everything else about the story up to that point indicating that yes, all deaths are final, all universe erasures are non-reversible, etc. etc.
It's a turn that hits a reset button in a way that doesn't gel with the arc up to that point. It's bad writing; the entire point of the arc, everything everyone is fighting against, everything the whole story is built around, all reversed in one moment, and ultimately it's not a clever subversion or turn. It's predictable, in fact; they've done the exact same thing before, so not only is it a single example of bad writing, but it's an example of the same piece of bad writing being recycled continually, which -- even for a piece of good writing -- would be tiresome.

A reset button with zero other consequences, even if it did fit in with the entire set-up and everything the stakes of the arc are built on, is troublesome. Hell, if Piccolo hadn't died and Goku hadn't been stuck as a kid, I'd be throwing these same criticisms at the Baby arc... In fact, y'know I think I honestly could just throw these criticisms at the Baby arc anyway... But criticising GT is overplayed at this point, and at least it only made that mistake once, and it did make the effort of doing stuff like what it did with Piccolo to mitigate it, even if it was a bit out-of-no-where, superficial, and weird... Super doesn't try much harder than "don't even worry about it. everything is okay now but we have to continue getting stronger anyway y'know bro"
Dragon Ball arcs in general have zero consequence. Any kind of collateral damage created in the arc is always mitigated with the Dragon Balls either in the very arc where shit hits the fan or in the very next arc. I wouldn't call it bad writing in those scenarios where cast fall back on the Dragon Ball to sort any mitigating problem caused by circumstances of the story arc. Especially since the Universal Survival arc makes it very apparent very early on that winner of the Tournament Of Power will get any wish they desire with the Super Dragon Balls.

I can understand if you personally don't like how any potential consequence are negated because of a set of Dragon Balls. But I wouldn't isolate the Universal Survival arc as a special case of this being bad. It's just Dragon Ball wrapping up its story arc in the most convenient fashion possible. I mean, by the time Majin Boo arc occurs, the cast are quite meta with their approach of the potential consequence regarding the antagonist they may encounter as they adopt a "use the Dragon Ball to fix everything" mentality so much they're willing to let billions of die on the virtue
Robo4900 wrote:The thing is, Zeno had already destroyed everything. It was established from the beginning that all losing universes are erased, and throughout the tournament, Zeno showed with all the casual brutality one would expect, his willingness and ease to simply wipe out all the losing universes from existence. We see these universes go; a big deal is made out of it in every case. Then suddenly at the end, #17 wishes everyone back, which had never been even remotely hinted as a possibility, it completely contradicts all of the stakes of the arc, and ultimately undercuts everything that happened here... The only thing that happens as a result of the TOP occuring is Goku has a new colour he can switch his hair to.

The stakes of the arc were built against the idea of there being an easy reset button that would be pressed at the end with zero other consequences. And yet, here we are.
The winner of the Tournament Of Power was granted any wish one wish with the Super Dragon Balls. It wasn't etched in stone that no one could used the Super Dragon Balls to reverse Zeno's actions. It was only a suggestion, that at best, wasn't advised given the unpredictably of how Zeno would react to such a wish being made. The stakes of the universes being erased at the time aren't gone because it's undone. That's like saying in any arc when the Dragon Balls are used to reverse the damage caused or the lives lost removes the stakes of the arc. It doesn't. The drama is still existed.

The stake of the Universal Survival arc weren't built against the idea of there being an easy reset button that would be pressed at the end with zero other consequences. The stakes of the Universal Survival arc were simply built in the fact that eight universes were fighting to survive in a tournament, with the winner having carte blanche with a set of wish granting plot device that have unlimited capabilities in their wish granting. I mean, the Universal Survival began because a mortal (Goku) defy the suggestions and requests of a deity (Beerus) and the arc ended with a mortal (#17) defying the suggestions and requests of a deity (Zeno). I think at the very least there's some thematic consistency with this arc that prevents the ending arc from seemingly being out of left field.

As far as what can taken from the Tournament Of Power for the long term, well, the jury is still out on that one as Super is still an ongoing story, at least in one medium.

The Universal Survival arc itself served the purpose of working in juxtaposition of the themes tossed around the Future Trunks arc of the questionable morality of mortal throughout the multiverse. Zeno was looking for a virtuous mortal who would act with empathy when presented with an opportunity, and given total freedom, to act with absolute selfishness with a wish that had no limitations, would forgo they own personal wants and desires and instead shown and immense amount of sympathy and grant an extension of life for several other universes. it's not deep or profound by any storytelling means, but I find the whole "secret test of character" angle wholesome enough to Dragon Ball's large themes of camaraderie, and pragmatism balanced with empathy to make the arc itself worthwhile.

I'd understand if you don't agree with me on any of this, but that's just my two cents. :)

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball arcs in general have zero consequence. Any kind of collateral damage created in the arc is always mitigated with the Dragon Balls either in the very arc where shit hits the fan or in the very next arc. I wouldn't call it bad writing in those scenarios where cast fall back on the Dragon Ball to sort any mitigating problem caused by circumstances of the story arc. Especially since the Universal Survival arc makes it very apparent very early on that winner of the Tournament Of Power will get any wish they desire with the Super Dragon Balls.

I can understand if you personally don't like how any potential consequence are negated because of a set of Dragon Balls. But I wouldn't isolate the Universal Survival arc as a special case of this being bad. It's just Dragon Ball wrapping up its story arc in the most convenient fashion possible. I mean, by the time Majin Boo arc occurs, the cast are quite meta with their approach of the potential consequence regarding the antagonist they may encounter as they adopt a "use the Dragon Ball to fix everything" mentality so much they're willing to let billions of die on the virtue
I laid out exactly why I disagree with you on this in my post, and I don't think you really did anything here to counter that other than say you disagree... :lol:

I'll just say this... In the past, when the Dragon Balls have been used to mitigate damage, there's always been some element of "Yes, but" to it...
You can't say the events of the Piccolo arc didn't leave a lasting impact on everyone. Piccolo himself was never even killed; when Goku eventually had the chance, he decided to leave him alive. How did the Dragon Balls enter into that arc? Some people were revived before the 23rd Tenkaichi, but Piccolo was still very much on the loose, so yes everyone's back, but the big bad has still yet to be defeated, and will remain still yet to be defeated for many more years, in fact.
Saiyan arc, they couldn't use the Dragon Balls; in fact, the Namek arc was a struggle to get to use them, a bit like the Red Ribbon arc.
Cell arc, the only really notable damage done that could be reversed was Goku's death, which he declined. So not only had Gohan grown up tremendously, and discovered an incredible power within himself, but lost his father in the process, not only had Vegeta been bested by both his greatest rival and his rival's son who had no interest in fighting, but he lost his rival too, and he realised how much his own son meant to him, and all of Goku's friends and family now have to live without Goku in their lives... Granted, Goku comes back, but only as a last resort, and it comes as a rather big surprise to everyone, after seven years of him being dead...
In the Boo arc, I don't think I even need to mention what happens between Goku and Vegeta, or what happens to Gohan, and there's the fact Goku is now back in everyone's lives...

Dragon Ball had always moved forward in its original run. It would never finish an arc where it started, even in the few occasions when it would have what you could call a reset switch; yes, the Boo arc did undo earth's destruction, I'll give you that one, but I dare you to find a time before that when the Dragon Balls were just a reset switch that brought everything back to how it was when/before the arc began.

Meanwhile, in Super... ResF has Whis reverse time so Freeza's one thing that could've caused any kind of impact was reversed. He's dead, and once Goku and Vegeta go back to Beerus's place, all that'll have changed since the start of the movie is the earth balls are stone for the next year.
Black has Trunks's world destroyed... But then Zeno destroys the timeline... But he can just go back to an earlier point so it's all fine. And nothing happened in the main timeline anyway, so nothing's actually changed from the start of the arc to the end.
TOP... Goku can turn his hair a new colour, and he met someone strong who he beat, both things that happened in more of Z's storylines than seems sane. Freeza's back again, but that's less moving forward and more just taking a step back to what ResF did and back-pedalling how easily he was dispensed with there. The characters really didn't move forward in any significant manner. Even Goku's potential reputation as "that guy who's so eager for a good fight he killed a bunch of universes, that goddamn idiotic dick" was entirely circumvented both by #17 undoing all of it, and it being made clear that without Goku making Zeno do the tournament, all those universes -- including U7 -- would have been erased by Zeno anyway... So, much as the TOP tried to hint at various ideas, it really just ended up exactly where we were when Freeza was revived back in the ResF arc. I guess a bunch of people's power levels are higher or some crap like that, but... Call me crazy, I tend to pay more attention to the characters themselves than how hard they hit each-other... :lol:
Lord Beerus wrote:The winner of the Tournament Of Power was granted any wish one wish with the Super Dragon Balls. It wasn't etched in stone that no one could used the Super Dragon Balls to reverse Zeno's actions. It was only a suggestion, that at best, wasn't advised given the unpredictably of how Zeno would react to such a wish being made. The stakes of the universes being erased at the time aren't gone because it's undone. That's like saying in any arc when the Dragon Balls are used to reverse the damage caused or the lives lost removes the stakes of the arc. It doesn't. The drama is still existed.

The stake of the Universal Survival arc weren't built against the idea of there being an easy reset button that would be pressed at the end with zero other consequences. The stakes of the Universal Survival arc were simply built in the fact that eight universes were fighting to survive in a tournament, with the winner having carte blanche with a set of wish granting plot device that have unlimited capabilities in their wish granting. I mean, the Universal Survival began because a mortal (Goku) defy the suggestions and requests of a deity (Beerus) and the arc ended with a mortal (#17) defying the suggestions and requests of a deity (Zeno). I think at the very least there's some thematic consistency with this arc that prevents the ending arc from seemingly being out of left field.
Thing is, "Fighting to survive" is exactly the point. The stakes are that if you fail, you die. Erased. Gone. An entire universe, permanently erased because Zeno wants to get rid of them.
If we know it's building up to a wish that will definitely reverse this, then there really are no stakes at all, and it's just an overblown for-fun battle royale with nothing more on the line than pride. And yet, at all times it's presented as a struggle for survival.

And in the end, as I laid out in my previous post, it didn't have any consequences, which is a pretty terrible thing in a story like this.
Lord Beerus wrote:As far as what can taken from the Tournament Of Power for the long term, well, the jury is still out on that one as Super is still an ongoing story, at least in one medium.

The Universal Survival arc itself served the purpose of working in juxtaposition of the themes tossed around the Future Trunks arc of the questionable morality of mortal throughout the multiverse. Zeno was looking for a virtuous mortal who would act with empathy when presented with an opportunity, and given total freedom, to act with absolute selfishness with a wish that had no limitations, would forgo they own personal wants and desires and instead shown and immense amount of sympathy and grant an extension of life for several other universes. it's not deep or profound by any storytelling means, but I find the whole "secret test of character" angle wholesome enough to Dragon Ball's large themes of camaraderie, and pragmatism balanced with empathy to make the arc itself worthwhile.
Maybe it's just because I've only read the manga of the TOP, but I never got any sense Zeno was looking for any kind of virtuous mortal, just a fun fight to watch. #17 reviving the other universes was fairly immaterial to the Zenos, as they were quite satisfied by the good fight they saw unfold.
Lord Beerus wrote:I'd understand if you don't agree with me on any of this, but that's just my two cents. :)
Indeed. Well, this is Dragon Ball. Finding consensus here is like finding Funi's Dragon Box Vol. 2 for a reasonable price. :D
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:07 pm

Yeah that's pretty true. Concensus is impossible.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:22 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Michsi wrote:the pretty dark ending of Future Trunks arc and that the writers might attempt something like that again, but that was about it.
You mean the ending in which Trunks went back in time to a point where everything was fine, negating all negative effects of the arc on his timeline, and as a bonus he and Mai now have dopplegangers who can help them out in saving the world, or since their world is protected they could go off and found the Time Patrol, or do you mean the ending in which Goku and Vegeta returned to their normal timeline having learned and gained utterly zilch, but having had a couple of pretty decent fights and hung out with Trunks a bit...?
That doesn't change that Trunks' own timeline is gone. The solution Whis found for them doesn't actually mitigate the pretty sad conclusion to Trunks' arc, even though I think that's what the writers wanted. I see timelines as separate worlds and I think most do too. Yes, the execution wasn't great and it didn't feel as dire as it should have, but it was still pretty dark for Dragon Ball. That's what got people thinking about how the TOP might end.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:19 pm

Michsi wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
Michsi wrote:the pretty dark ending of Future Trunks arc and that the writers might attempt something like that again, but that was about it.
You mean the ending in which Trunks went back in time to a point where everything was fine, negating all negative effects of the arc on his timeline, and as a bonus he and Mai now have dopplegangers who can help them out in saving the world, or since their world is protected they could go off and found the Time Patrol, or do you mean the ending in which Goku and Vegeta returned to their normal timeline having learned and gained utterly zilch, but having had a couple of pretty decent fights and hung out with Trunks a bit...?
That doesn't change that Trunks' own timeline is gone. The solution Whis found for them doesn't actually mitigate the pretty sad conclusion to Trunks' arc, even though I think that's what the writers wanted. I see timelines as separate worlds and I think most do too. Yes, the execution wasn't great and it didn't feel as dire as it should have, but it was still pretty dark for Dragon Ball. That's what got people thinking about how the TOP might end.
Except, they made a big deal of the idea that, yes, it's exactly the same world as Trunks knew before Black arrived. Trunks's arrival in that time period is what splinters it into a new timeline...
Which actually doesn't make that much sense when you consider that Zeno allegedly completely destroyed that timeline, but that's neither here nor there...

Even if you want to go along with the "Trunks still lost", it doesn't end up meaning much, because the ending makes it a big point that actually everything's fine, and our protagonists are all just dandy. If there had at least been some character progression from this, I'd be more forgiving, but there's no difference from the start of the Black arc to the end of it, other than the fact there's an alternate timeline out there where there are two Trunkses, one of whom is generally more sad and more likely to form/join the Time Patrol. It's not even got the superficial progression of Goku or Vegeta having a new hair colour like the ResF and Tournament Of Power arcs had.
Honestly, it doesn't even do its job at making it all seem okay, because what you suggest of Trunks having a pretty sad end to his story rings true, and yet it's all made out as if everything is fine and dandy, so it's quite a clash of tone. It just fundamentally is a really stupid way to handle what could have been a really strong end that would bring the rather messy and poorly-plotted arc to a conclusion that'd make it a classic.

If they wanted this arc to really mean something, they wanted the theoretically dark conclusion to the fight with Black to actually live up to what it is, and they're really so confident in Future Trunks's marketability, why not just do the easy, obvious thing and have Trunks stay in the prime timeline, and say his timeline is completely, irrecoverably gone?
Maybe even tie it into the thing of Beerus and Whis not liking time travel, and have them admit they could do something, but outright refuse, as punishment for Trunks's timeline screwing. Could even help set up for Goku's defiance of Beerus when the TOP arc starts off; he could still be a bit peeved at him for refusing to help Trunks. Maybe even get Vegeta somewhat on Goku's side in that respect, since he has shown that he feels for Trunks, even if he does try to hide it quite often.

If you want to go into the idea of Trunks having to deal with the big loss that happened in that arc, and you actually want the idea that that arc was a failure, then have Trunks stick around as the reminder that yes, our heroes are fallible, and they can be beaten. Carry him over into the TOP, and give him an arc in that story of regaining his confidence, and actually using that power he briefly accessed in the Black arc in a way that actually wins the day. Hell, Trunks being the last man standing is probably the one way you could make the wish at the end of the TOP actually work, since it would be a big moment for him in which he gets to somewhat redeem himself for his utter failure to stop Black from destroying everything he loves. It's still a bit cheesy and messy, but at least it actually explores what the loss at the end of the Black arc implies, rather than just briefly hinting at Trunks being a bit moody then completely dropping all sense of anything having ever been wrong...
Instead, we get an ending where Trunks just goes home, everyone goes back to their lives just fine, and we're left with a totally inconsequential storyline, amounting to nothing. Even a little speech from Whis or Beerus like "Yes, go home, time traveller... And carry the guilt of your failure to your grave" would have made this nonsense less of an awful cop-out.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:19 pm

I hate it how the wikia refuses to change the SSJ4 page when Dragon Ball Heroes anime and manga show that SSJ4 can be used at will.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:42 pm

First DBHeroes is less canon than... well the least canon thing you can think of. Also you should stop obsessing over this SSJ4 thing. Its not healthy.
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Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:08 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:First DBHeroes is less canon than... well the least canon thing you can think of. Also you should stop obsessing over this SSJ4 thing. Its not healthy.
Using the canon vs noncanon thing is a pretty weak argument. I don't lose sleep over the issue but your right I should just let it go that the wiki won't change since its pretty awful.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:17 pm

I know its a very weak argument. I was just trying to be more convincing. But I'm glad you arent losing any sleep over this.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:19 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:I know its a very weak argument. I was just trying to be more convincing. But I'm glad you arent losing any sleep over this.
Well its not a convincing argument sorry, nor is the subbed anime IMO. Yeah its something that irritates me enough to think about a lot but not so much that I can't sleep. It grinds my gears.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:59 am

Bardock's whole squad not even getting a cameo in the Broly movie
Super's 'boxing' matches
an unwillingness for tailed saiyans.
Beet deserving better

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:35 pm

mahakaishin1991 wrote:Bardock's whole squad not even getting a cameo in the Broly movie
Super's 'boxing' matches
an unwillingness for tailed saiyans.
Beet deserving better
The Dragon Ball Heroes character?? Uh, no thanks.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:36 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
mahakaishin1991 wrote:Bardock's whole squad not even getting a cameo in the Broly movie
Super's 'boxing' matches
an unwillingness for tailed saiyans.
Beet deserving better
The Dragon Ball Heroes character?? Uh, no thanks.
Not him, the Beets from the new Broly movie

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:51 pm

Also I find it aggravating how people scorn the video games as evidence.
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In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

I thank....... you......... -Broly to Cheelai

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by The Patrolman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:12 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Also I find it aggravating how people scorn the video games as evidence.
Its weird right?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm

The Patrolman wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Also I find it aggravating how people scorn the video games as evidence.
Its weird right?
Yeah while I get it in some cases, in others its just ridiculous.
Hulk is strongest one there is. -Incredible Hulk

In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

I thank....... you......... -Broly to Cheelai

It's not right for you to say bad things about him. He is my dad." -Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about Paragus.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by The Patrolman » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:27 pm

Really don't like how some fanfic comics go overboard on the gore, Like the series does have brutal moments but it was never on a Berserk level
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:37 pm

People saying Goku and Vegeta are brothers. Like, for f**k's sake people, do you even watch the f**king show?! There is absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they're brothers! In fact we were introduced to Goku's actual brother before we were even introduced to Vegeta! Like, you've got to be a complete idiot to think Goku and Vegeta are brothers!
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 pm

I think people just have a habit of mistaking Raditz for Vegeta.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:51 pm

Vegeta is Goku's brother has been around forever. It's just another one of those things people think when they haven't followed the series closely enough. I know I'm probably guilty of worse. (Goku is Chichi's teenage son, Yamcha a Saiyan etc.)

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