Is Dragon Ball cynical at its core?

[90sDBZ]

Gohan might be the only exception since he seems to be genuinely decent, probably to show just how awful the rest are.

What about Krillin and Yamcha and Tien and Chiaotzu and Goten?

Kuririn wanted to learn the martial arts to get women. He was also shown to be morally dubious early on, willing to cheat to get what he wants etc., and always had that shady vibe to him. Particularly to contrast with Goku/Gohan. Then there's the whole #18/Cell plot. He's always been motivated by self-interest, almost comically so.

Yamcha the former bandit is portrayed as perpetually unemployed and broke, always looking for a deal, even from Shen Long.

Maybe Tenshinhan/Chaozu aren't so bad post-reform, but who knows outside the martial arts. I'll give you Goten, although even he is shown to be lazy and disinterested.

Krillin has acted selflessly on many occasions, risking life and limb to defend the earth from the saiyans, standing up to the Ginyu Force and Frieza on namek to revive his friends, saving Gohan etc.

And him letting 18 live makes him more likeable and relatable to me. He's a human who acted on human emotion. If he'd murdered her in cold blood that would undermine his good nature.

The thing with Yamcha and Shenron was just comic relief and doesn't define his whole character. He offered to take Krillin's place against the Saibamen because he couldn't be revived again and died for it. The stuff about his financial situation is insignificant in comparison.

And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Future Trunks yet. The guy truly cared for the little people.

[KBABZ]

I'm not saying they haven't grown or matured any, just that they aren't exactly "righteous heroes" or role models. I can understand Toriyama's comments and see the cynicism.

My opinion is that character arcs do matter and stand for something. Yamcha gave up the bandit life at the end of the first arc, Krillin hasn't been using porn to get his way since he beat the Orin Temple bully, and the situation with 18 was more hormones and love than "hey let's screw over the world so I can bang the broad". About the only character whose arc DOESN'T matter is Yajirobe because he's designed to be an unlikeable jerk.

[MyVisionity]

Krillin has acted selflessly on many occasions, risking life and limb to defend the earth from the saiyans, standing up to the Ginyu Force and Frieza on namek to revive his friends, saving Gohan etc.

Kuririn fought the Saiyajin so he wouldn't be killed, same with Ginyu/Freeza. He did risk his life for his friends, yes, but that's because they're his friends. That's only selfless to a certain extent.

And him letting 18 live makes him more likeable and relatable to me. He's a human who acted on human emotion. If he'd murdered her in cold blood that would undermine his good nature.

Likeable and relatable, maybe, but still a bit selfish.

And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Future Trunks yet. The guy truly cared for the little people.

This is true, although it's probably mostly due to him being brought up under Gohan's influence.

I'm not saying they haven't grown or matured any, just that they aren't exactly "righteous heroes" or role models. I can understand Toriyama's comments and see the cynicism.

My opinion is that character arcs do matter and stand for something. Yamcha gave up the bandit life at the end of the first arc, Krillin hasn't been using porn to get his way since he beat the Orin Temple bully, and the situation with 18 was more hormones and love than "hey let's screw over the world so I can bang the broad". About the only character whose arc DOESN'T matter is Yajirobe because he's designed to be an unlikeable jerk.

I agree that character arcs matter. But that doesn't mean the characters are going to be good and decent people. Maybe *better* people by the end, but Toriyama wrote these characters over a long period.

Yamcha was no longer a bandit, but he did remain someone who constantly avoided having to work a job, and financially irresponsible. Kuririn remained someone consumed with finding a woman, as well as casually perverted, and self-interested. I'm not saying these characters don't have any redeemable qualities, just that Toriyama wrote them over the course of the series to be very flawed individuals.

There's a reason we don't see much of the cast functioning in the real world outside of the martial arts. It's because they'd likely suck at it. I mean, just look at all of the Toei filler that shows the characters outside of their comfort zones. They tend to cause more harm than good to society and the people around them.

[KBABZ]

There's a reason we don't see much of the cast functioning in the real world outside of the martial arts. It's because they'd likely suck at it. I mean, just look at all of the Toei filler that shows the characters outside of their comfort zones. They tend to cause more harm than good to society and the people around them.

Well yeah, but they suck in normal society because the story puts next to no focus on normal society. This is a story about fighting and adventure at the end of the day, and outside of Vegeta's personal character arc, the need to function in the real world isn't really a requirement, and it's arguably an intrinsic part of the genre it's based on.

[WittyUsername]

Kuririn wanted to learn the martial arts to get women. He was also shown to be morally dubious early on, willing to cheat to get what he wants etc., and always had that shady vibe to him. Particularly to contrast with Goku/Gohan. Then there's the whole #18/Cell plot. He's always been motivated by self-interest, almost comically so.

Yamcha the former bandit is portrayed as perpetually unemployed and broke, always looking for a deal, even from Shen Long.

So what you're telling me is that these characters are still self-centered asses who have no character arc? Sorry, I don't buy that.

I'm not saying they haven't grown or matured any, just that they aren't exactly "righteous heroes" or role models. I can understand Toriyama's comments and see the cynicism.

My problem isn’t so much that these characters aren’t righteous heroes. I perfectly understand that Dragon Ball isn’t a superhero story in the same way that DC and Marvel comics are. The problem I have is when their selfish qualities seem to get emphasized to the point where they come across as borderline sociopaths, which has been especially prevalent in Super. That leads to a serious case of darkness induced audience apathy for me. If the characters of the Dragon Ball franchise are such shitty people who live in a shitty multiverse, why should I care about what happens to any of them?

Mistarefusion/Gaffer Tape does a pretty good job of talking about how inconsistent Dragon Ball characters are when it comes to the question of morality, especially during the Cell arc.

[ABED]

If you know they aren't superheroes, then what is the point in asking this question " If the characters of the Dragon Ball franchise are such shitty people who live in a shitty multiverse, why should I care about what happens to any of them?" You care for the same reason you've always cared.

[WittyUsername]

If you know they aren't superheroes, then what is the point in asking this question " If the characters of the Dragon Ball franchise are such shitty people who live in a shitty multiverse, why should I care about what happens to any of them?" You care for the same reason you've always cared.

I don’t understand your question. Not being righteous heroes doesn’t mean that these characters should be scumbags, which is something that a lot of fans say they are.

Also, what does “you care for the same reason you’ve always cared” even mean?

[ABED]

If you know they aren't superheroes, then what is the point in asking this question " If the characters of the Dragon Ball franchise are such shitty people who live in a shitty multiverse, why should I care about what happens to any of them?" You care for the same reason you've always cared.

I don’t understand your question. Not being righteous heroes doesn’t mean that these characters should be scumbags, which is something that a lot of fans say they are.

Also, what does “you care for the same reason you’ve always cared” even mean?

What's so hard to understand? I didn't ask the question. These actions aren't remotely new, so why is it a problem now? They put fighting above a lot, but why is it becoming an issue for fans? Are they now waking up to Goku putting the world at risk for a fight?

If you liked them before, they haven't fundamentally changed so why is this even a question about why you should care about them?

I guess I can get the cumulative effect, but the response doesn't feel like that. It seems like people believe the characters have changed.

[WittyUsername]

If you know they aren't superheroes, then what is the point in asking this question " If the characters of the Dragon Ball franchise are such shitty people who live in a shitty multiverse, why should I care about what happens to any of them?" You care for the same reason you've always cared.

I don’t understand your question. Not being righteous heroes doesn’t mean that these characters should be scumbags, which is something that a lot of fans say they are.

Also, what does “you care for the same reason you’ve always cared” even mean?

What's so hard to understand? I didn't ask the question. These actions aren't remotely new, so why is it a problem now? They put fighting above a lot, but why is it becoming an issue for fans?

If you liked them before, they haven't fundamentally changed so why is this even a question about why you should care about them?

In the case of Goku, as I said before, Super has made his questionable actions and moments of selfishness more blatant. Despite not being a superhero, Goku did have his fair share of noble acts in the original manga that went as far back as the very first arc, where he agreed to take Turtle to his home. We’ve seen almost none of that in Super.

Apart from that, Beerus and Zen-Oh did not exist prior to the franchise’s revival, and I think both of those characters have contributed to the sense of cynicism and apathy that I feel from the series.

[ABED]

They really haven't from the sound of things. The only thing that's changed is the stakes, but not his actions. Goku's done and will continue to do heroic things, but this isn't new. Goku cared more about the winning the TB than the fate of the world. He let Piccolo and Vegeta go for the sake of a fight, and he let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs.

We care because we find the characters interesting. I don't care more about Goku because he does something nice. I care if he achieves his goals.

[WittyUsername]

They really haven't from the sound of things. The only thing that's changed is the stakes, but not his actions. Goku's done and will continue to do heroic things, but this isn't new. Goku cared more about the winning the TB than the fate of the world. He let Piccolo and Vegeta go for the sake of a fight, and he let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs.

We care because we find the characters interesting. I don't care more about Goku because he does something nice. I care if he achieves his goals.

For the record, I actually did have a problem with some of Goku’s baffling decisions from the original manga, I just feel that it’s gotten worse in Super. I also think characters like Beerus and Zen-Oh are extremely frustrating on the count of the fact that they’re malevolent man children who will wipe out all existence if they’re in a mildly bad mood, and no one is able to do anything about it.

Again, I’m not saying that Goku should be a superhero, but if he’s the sociopath that Toriyama and fans make him out to be, why should I care to see him achieve his goals?

[ABED]

They really haven't from the sound of things. The only thing that's changed is the stakes, but not his actions. Goku's done and will continue to do heroic things, but this isn't new. Goku cared more about the winning the TB than the fate of the world. He let Piccolo and Vegeta go for the sake of a fight, and he let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs.

We care because we find the characters interesting. I don't care more about Goku because he does something nice. I care if he achieves his goals.

For the record, I actually did have a problem with some of Goku’s baffling decisions from the original manga, I just feel that it’s gotten worse in Super. I also think characters like Beerus and Zen-Oh are extremely frustrating on the count of the fact that they’re malevolent man children who will wipe out all existence if they’re in a mildly bad mood, and no one is able to do anything about it.

Again, I’m not saying that Goku should be a superhero, but if he’s the sociopath that Toriyama and fans make him out to be, why should I care to see him achieve his goals?

How were they baffling?

Do characters have to be good guys for you to find them interesting? Fine if that's true, but I think you would be missing out on a whole lot of great stories.

[WittyUsername]

They really haven't from the sound of things. The only thing that's changed is the stakes, but not his actions. Goku's done and will continue to do heroic things, but this isn't new. Goku cared more about the winning the TB than the fate of the world. He let Piccolo and Vegeta go for the sake of a fight, and he let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs.

We care because we find the characters interesting. I don't care more about Goku because he does something nice. I care if he achieves his goals.

For the record, I actually did have a problem with some of Goku’s baffling decisions from the original manga, I just feel that it’s gotten worse in Super. I also think characters like Beerus and Zen-Oh are extremely frustrating on the count of the fact that they’re malevolent man children who will wipe out all existence if they’re in a mildly bad mood, and no one is able to do anything about it.

Again, I’m not saying that Goku should be a superhero, but if he’s the sociopath that Toriyama and fans make him out to be, why should I care to see him achieve his goals?

How were they baffling?

Do characters have to be good guys for you to find them interesting? Fine if that's true, but I think you would be missing out on a whole lot of great stories.

In the case of Dr. Gero, it’s obvious that Goku deciding to let him complete the artificial humans was done partially to move the plot along. The fact that the rest of the characters outside of Vegeta spent the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from achieving his perfect form, and the fact that Goku wanted Gohan to finish Cell off as quickly as possible once he had him on the ropes, is a pretty clear example of just how inconsistent Toriyama’s writing for the Cell arc was.

I also never said that characters have to be good guys in order to be interesting. I think Breaking Bad is a great show, even though Walter White is obviously not a good person. The difference is that Breaking Bad is upfront about the fact that it’s a very dark and cynical show. It doesn’t try to be some whimsical children’s show about adventure, and the other characters regularly call Walter out for his actions.

[ABED]

In the case of Dr. Gero, it’s obvious that Goku deciding to let him complete the artificial humans was done partially to move the plot along. The fact that the rest of the characters outside of Vegeta spent the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from achieving his perfect form, and the fact that Goku wanted Gohan to finish Cell off as quickly as possible once he had him on the ropes, is a pretty clear example of just how inconsistent Toriyama’s writing for the Cell arc was.

It's not baffling if you understand the characters. Goku didn't do it to motivate the plot. It's IN character to want to fight the strongest opponents, hence why he let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs. And Cell was already at his strongest, hence why he wanted Gohan to finish Cell off. he also didn't want Cell to have enough time to kill everyone. Despite being weaker than Gohan, he's still a threat. I don't think you have quite the understanding of the characters as you believe.

The difference is that Breaking Bad is upfront about the fact that it’s a very dark and cynical show.

Oddly enough it's not a cynical show. Dark? Fuck yes, but not cynical, but this is another conversation for another place. DB is very upfront about the world it is. It's a whimsical silly world that does't tend to take itself too seriously and where characters will do heroic things not as their raison d'etre, but as a consequence of their goal to get stronger. You might have missed that, which is fine, but it never tried to put one over on the audience.

[WittyUsername]

In the case of Dr. Gero, it’s obvious that Goku deciding to let him complete the artificial humans was done partially to move the plot along. The fact that the rest of the characters outside of Vegeta spent the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from achieving his perfect form, and the fact that Goku wanted Gohan to finish Cell off as quickly as possible once he had him on the ropes, is a pretty clear example of just how inconsistent Toriyama’s writing for the Cell arc was.

It's not baffling if you understand the characters. Goku didn't do it to motivate the plot. It's IN character to want to fight the strongest opponents, hence why he let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs. And Cell was already at his strongest, hence why he wanted Gohan to finish Cell off. he also didn't want Cell to have enough time to kill everyone. Despite being weaker than Gohan, he's still a threat. I don't think you have quite the understanding of the characters as you believe.

I understand the characters and it’s still pretty baffling to me. And yes, Goku letting Gero complete the artificial humans was done to move the plot along. If Goku and the others had agreed with Bulma, there wouldn’t have been any artificial humans. Also, your argument about why Goku wanted Gohan to finish off Cell doesn’t really work. First off, Cell wasn’t at his strongest by that point. Gohan had reduced him to his weaker form. Plus, didn’t the previous arcs make Goku out to be someone who is willing to let strong enemies go if it means getting to fight them again? He even offered to let Freeza go if Freeza promised to train some more. Why was he so anxious for Gohan to finish off Cell?

I don’t get why you have to play the “you don’t understand it” card, but I find it pretty insulting.

[ABED]

I understand the characters and it’s still pretty baffling to me. And yes, Goku letting Gero complete the artificial humans was done to move the plot along. If Goku and the others had agreed with Bulma, there wouldn’t have been any artificial humans.

But the statement implies he's acting out of character. He lets Gero complete the cyborgs because he wants to fight them. It's the same motivation for letting Vegeta go even though Kuririn has him dead to rights. The simple answer is Goku WANTED to fight them. He needs them complete in order to fight them. Are you disagreeing that Goku wanted to fight them?

Sorry if you found it insulting, but if you imply Goku isn't acting in character to justify a plot point when he's not, I'm going to point out that you don't understand the character. Goku is willing to let bad guys go in order fight them. He lets Vegeta and Piccolo go for that reason. If you understand that, why would you find it perplexing that Goku would let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs?

First off, Cell wasn’t at his strongest by that point. Gohan had reduced him to his weaker form. Plus, didn’t the previous arcs make Goku out to be someone who is willing to let strong enemies go if it means getting to fight them again? He even offered to let Freeza go if Freeza promised to train some more. Why was he so anxious for Gohan to finish off Cell?

But Goku saw that even at Cell's strongest, he's not a match for Gohan, plus he's a threat to everyone. He can survive in space like Freeza. He's willing to let someone go if they don't pose an immediate threat. In the Freeza example, Goku didn't believe him too be an immediate threat.

[WittyUsername]

I understand the characters and it’s still pretty baffling to me. And yes, Goku letting Gero complete the artificial humans was done to move the plot along. If Goku and the others had agreed with Bulma, there wouldn’t have been any artificial humans.

But the statement implies he's acting out of character. He lets Gero complete the cyborgs because he wants to fight them. It's the same motivation for letting Vegeta go even though Kuririn has him dead to rights. The simple answer is Goku WANTED to fight them. He needs them complete in order to fight them. Are you disagreeing that Goku wanted to fight them?

Sorry if you found it insulting, but if you imply Goku isn't acting in character to justify a plot point when he's not, I'm going to point out that you don't understand the character. Goku is willing to let bad guys go in order fight them. He lets Vegeta and Piccolo go for that reason. If you understand that, why would you find it perplexing that Goku would let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs?

I’m not saying that Goku wanting to fight strong opponents is out of character. I’m saying that Toriyama is inconsistent in regards to just how badly Goku wants to fight strong people, and him having Goku demand that Gohan finish Cell off is an example of that.

But Goku saw that even at Cell's strongest, he's not a match for Gohan, plus he's a threat to everyone. He can survive in space like Freeza. He's willing to let someone go if they don't pose an immediate threat. In the Freeza example, Goku didn't believe him too be an immediate threat.

I don’t see how Freeza didn’t pose an immediate threat. Freeza could’ve easily followed Goku to Earth to destroy the planet.

[ABED]

Following him doesn't make him an IMMEDIATE threat. Goku's very range of the moment concrete bound.

I’m saying that Toriyama is inconsistent in regards to just how badly Goku wants to fight strong people, and him having Goku demand that Gohan finish Cell off is an example of that.

But he's not. Gohan was stronger than Cell. There was nothing to gain by giving Cell time. Now lets get back to the Dr. Gero example. Toriyama isn't having Goku act out of character by letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs, ergo he's not just doing it to facilitate the plot.

[MasenkoHA]

There is like...zilchola cynicism in Dragon Ball. Bad guys go good all the time. Bad guys who don’t are defeated. The main character is a happy go lucky dude who just likes fighting and making friends and his actions are never shown to have any serious negative repercussions.

The series is optimistic as fuck and I can’t imagine how anyone could get a cynical read on it unless they’re trying to make some serious mental gymnastics

[ABED]

There is like...zilchola cynicism in Dragon Ball. Bad guys go good all the time. Bad guys who don’t are defeated. The main character is a happy go lucky dude who just likes fighting and making friends and his actions are never shown to have any serious negative repercussions.

The series is optimistic as fuck and I can’t imagine how anyone could get a cynical read on it unless they’re trying to make some serious mental gymnastics

I know the stakes get higher and higher, but as you say the repurcussions are rarely permanent and the level of stakes feel so childish in a way even if they are high. So I agree, it's not a cynical series by any stretch.