"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Champa The Destroyer]

The chapter was enjoyable but, the villain is terrorizing Namekian villages for the dragon balls, while the heroes are in hiding on Namek, knowing they don't stand a chance against the villain? This chapter really gave me a Namek Arc vibe...

[Raimundo]

Moro is legit the thing that brings this arc down for me the most so far.

[HeroR]

Whis knew about Buu's destruction in the manga. He just didn't bother to wake up Beerus about it, for some reasons. And Whis was training Goku and Vegeta when Freeza was revived.

Mind telling me which chapter this was elaborated on?

Chapter 15:

Whis: Oh dear, this is not good at all for Beerus-sama! I had better wake him but... He might be particularly furious. And after all... So long as the Kaiôshin that Beerus-sama sealed is alive, all will be well! Ho Ho Ho (laughs)! Wow... Dai Kaiôshin-sama was just captured (absorbed) by the Majin... Beerus: Mnya Mnya... Dying Kaiôshin: Da... Dai Kaiôshin-sama has been... [We see Rou Kaiôshin in the seal.]


https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... ed_photos/

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

^I remember reading that. Don't know why it isn't in chp15. Was that like an exclusive page that never made release like the extra pages from the Vegito/Zamasu battle?

[HeroR]

^I remember reading that. Don't know why it isn't in chp15. Was that like an exclusive page that never made release like the extra pages from the Vegito/Zamasu battle?

I honestly don’t know. Could have been a bonus page.

[omaro34]

3 days later when Vegeta and Goku wake up, Moro still hasn't gotten all the Dragonballs?

Not much sense to me.

[Kanassa]

That's not what I said. I specifically said a lot of your examples stem from Beerus' development during the BoG arc and were not necessarily cases of development by themselves.

By the end of BoG, he only gave a shit about Goku as a curiosity. He did not respect the Z-Fighters any more than the fodder that hang around with Goku. He was apathetic towards his job and the cast. In the Universe 6 Saga, he's developed a bit, but is still mostly apathetic outside of his pre-existing sibling rivalry, even at the end of the tournament reminding Goku that mortals are below Gods and must listen to them. Even then, he took the time to concoct a ruse solely for the benefit of Goku and Vegeta's training. He went out of his way to help out his brother after winning the wish.

In the Zamasu Saga, he actually starts to show more care about his job and the cast. End of BoG Beerus wouldn't give a flying fuck about the time travel happening, he wouldn't make the effort to investigate Black, he wouldn't go through the effort to save Gowasu, he wouldn't protect Goku and he wouldn't do anything to help Trunks. Yet he did, because he developed. In the TOP, he gets the wake up call of just how badly he's screwed up his job, at first blaming it on Shin, but then taking responsibility by the end and knowing he has to do better otherwise Zeno will erase him. In this saga, he starts off treating the rest of the Z-Fighters as fodder, treating them like he did the fighters back in the Universe 6 tournament, but through their fights he shows more and more respect for them, as well as consideration (In the anime: Roshi's a great example where Beerus writes him off as a useless 'Old Man', before showing actual concern about Roshi's health, telling him to get out before he hurts himself despite how much they need the numbers advantage, telling Krillin to ready a sensu for Roshi, ect. Hell, for you in particular, they even spell out that he stops to correct himself at the end and call Roshi by his actual name. In the Manga: Aside from respect for Roshi's Off brand Ultra Instinct, Beerus tells his team, after some instances of frustrated rants, that no matter what, they did a good job.), even going so far as to rewards Frieza as a thank you for the help.

He started Super as an arrogant and apathetic God who thought he was above mortals and was generally bored with life. By the end of Super, he's been humbled, been shown he needs to take his job more seriously, has more of a purpose in life and shows genuine respects towards mortals who can't even reach some sort of God form (To the point that he even bowed to Goku for achieving Ultra Instinct).

Let's just get this out of the way right now: Beerus doesn't care about Goku and Vegeta's safety enough to get off his ass when shit hits the fan. He didn't care when they were fighting Freeza, he didn't care when they were fighting Black in Trunks' timeline, he didn't care when they were fighting Broly. In two out of three of those examples, he flat-out said he didn't care. His erasure of Zamasu or newfound respect for some of Goku's friends doesn't suddenly imply otherwise; he can be a lazy buffoon overall and still occasionally take action, since that's hardly black and white.

And notice how when he says how much he doesn't care, Whis pops in to add a comment about how he's talking out of his ass to save face? But you're right, him having instances where he consistently shows he cares, grows to respect those he once treated as fodder and actually taking effort to do his job when it benefits him in no way doesn't show that he's grown to care or give a shit about his job at all.

This is a case of confirmation bias where you're reaching for irrelevant nonsense to support the notion that Beerus isn't apathetic and lazy while ignoring everything else in the series that fully demonstrates he's still apathetic and lazy. His only real development in Super material - namely Battle of Gods - had nothing to do with his competence at his job.

Irrelevant nonsense? You keep changing what words mean to suit your arguments. Showing examples of him displaying traits that his End of BoG character wouldn't display as a result of his interactions with the events of the story is quite relevant to the argument on whether or not he's developed as a character.

Every month you people try to look for instances of character regression where they don't exist. It's such a passé stance at this point because it's often rooted in opinions about how characters should behave rather than how they instrinsically do behave based on their personality and character flaws.

Damn it, you've just reminded me that I need to watch Tropic Thunder.

You people? I know you don't really read my post, but I'm the grand arbiter of 'I thought the manga so badly mishandles character that it should be impossible to have them regress'. I don't look for character regression because the manga doesn't give much to regress, so the fact that it actually managed it is actually kind of impressive.

[Marlowe89]

Irrelevant nonsense?

Did I stutter?

Let's break this down, arc by arc:

Beerus never "protects" Goku when confronting Zamasu in the manga. Goku isn't even there, my dude. It's also made crystal clear that Beerus' whole reason for taking action, at least in that medium, was because Whis speculated that Zamasu would start targeting the gods of other universes after killing Gowasu, which puts Beerus' life directly in danger. That was clearly an act of self-preservation.

In the Universe Survival arc, any "development" you could frame on his part isn't even tangentially related to Beerus' general apathy towards his position. There isn't a single point throughout the entire story where he acknowledges he feels committed to do his job better, which is really the name of the game in our discussion since that's the part you're attempting to criticize.

In the Broly movie, which is probably the most damning example to your general point, Beerus says he'd rather relax and take a nap than investigate Freeza's schemes. Whis doesn't object.

In this chapter, Beerus admits he's glad to have someone busting planets for him so he doesn't have to, which is the same attitude he took towards Freeza. Also, neither Beerus nor Whis seem to be aware of Moro or his past history with the Supreme Kai.

So where's the regression, exactly?

You keep changing what words mean to suit your arguments.

And you keep putting them in my mouth, so it's funny how that works. If I'm "changing what words mean to suit my arguments", you're changing the whole goddamn paradigm to suit yours.

That is, in addition to using Toei's anime inconsistencies to support your point in a discussion about Beerus' characterization in the manga, you're also ignoring plenty of counter examples (the most recent of which was directly scripted by Toriyama) establishing him to be a bum.

Beerus started Super as an apathetic, lazy god, and he's still an apathetic, lazy god. He's been consistently portrayed that way throughout the entirety of the manga and a film that occurs in both mediums, and the one time he actually helped was an instance where his life was in jeopardy. Stamping and calling it regression repeatedly isn't magically going to make it regression, so maybe calm down and re-read the material before bringing up irrelevant factors.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I get the feeling that the rest of this arc is going to take place on Namek and I really don't like that. We have seen this kind of story in Dragon Ball play out before. The only things that are actually intriguing me are Moro's powers, the involvement of the Galactic Patrol and Buu playing an important factor in all of this.

I did like that they were building up how the Namekians were assimilating to create a powerful warrior, only for that warrior to get completely one-shotted like nothing. Since this is going to take place on Namek from now on, can Piccolo get involved somehow? I know the exact same happened in the Freeza arc, but fuck it. There are enough similar story beats already, may as well add Piccolo.

[Shaddy]

I get the feeling that the rest of this arc is going to take place on Namek and I really don't like that. We have seen this kind of story in Dragon Ball play out before.

[Rakurai]

I'm gonna have to agree with the notion that Beerus has always been a lazy fuck piece of GoD, consistent in portrayal throughout the manga. Trying to reconcile manga Beerus with his anime counterpart is like trying to reconcile manga Goku with anime Goku. Anime Goku is a bigger buffoon overall.

On the latest chapter, things have become more interesting action-wise but a little shock factor isn't going to gloss over Moro's portrayal throughout this arc so far. The way he enjoys killing is... randomly absurd. When Frieza did it, he was portrayed as a sadistic, tyrannical ruler from the start. When Moro does it, it feels just random. Does he enjoy killing, or does he want his old power restored? The latter has been made clear, but not the former. His personality, fixated on restoring his old power, just does not seem to exude that homicidal side. I don't see it. Moro has the potential to become an interesting character, but Toyotarou really needs to work on his characterization.

Though I really did like the last even where Moro just no-diffs the Namekian warrior after a bit of hype. That was pretty funny, reminded me of Aniraza only to get one-shot by Kale lol.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If the Kaioshins were so scared of Moro that the Dai Kaioshin sacrificed his magic power to seal his abilities, but the Galactic Patrol couldn't execute him because they didn't have anyone strong enough, why didn't the Kaioshins just ask Beerus to destroy him while he was imprisoned?

[Hellspawn28]

This is how I think Moro will be defeated:

1. Goku and Vegeta fuse together into Gogeta
2. Goku finds Broly and has him take down Moro
3. They end up having Beerus do the job.

[HeroR]

I'm gonna have to agree with the notion that Beerus has always been a lazy fuck piece of GoD, consistent in portrayal throughout the manga. Trying to reconcile manga Beerus with his anime counterpart is like trying to reconcile manga Goku with anime Goku. Anime Goku is a bigger buffoon overall.

On the latest chapter, things have become more interesting action-wise but a little shock factor isn't going to gloss over Moro's portrayal throughout this arc so far. The way he enjoys killing is... randomly absurd. When Frieza did it, he was portrayed as a sadistic, tyrannical ruler from the start. When Moro does it, it feels just random. Does he enjoy killing, or does he want his old power restored? The latter has been made clear, but not the former. His personality, fixated on restoring his old power, just does not seem to exude that homicidal side. I don't see it. Moro has the potential to become an interesting character, but Toyotarou really needs to work on his characterization.

Though I really did like the last even where Moro just no-diffs the Namekian warrior after a bit of hype. That was pretty funny, reminded me of Aniraza only to get one-shot by Kale lol.

Except as Kanassa pointed out, this portrayal doesn't even match Manga Beerus. Like no matter the media, he still dealt with Zamasu despite it being a problem in another universe and timeline.

And I can't really agree that anime Goku is a bigger buffon than manga Goku. For one, Goku in the anime is shown to be a seasoned and experience martial artist who have outsmarted his opponent several times, while manga Goku since the Universal Survival Saga is more or less portrayal as dumb muscle. In fact, it's only really in the Future Trunks Saga that manga Goku comes out as smarter.

[Michsi]

In a another thread I mentioned how Goku & co. letting the androids get created so they could fight them was the result of Toriyama realizing the dragon balls were too obvious of a solution to their problem and so having the characters simply refuse to use them was the fastest and easiest way to deal with that. How that would affect their characterization was of little concern to Toriyama I believe and in fact preferred it like this and would double down on the "they aren't heroes/good people" bit.

I think we have the same with Beerus here. He is the obvious solution to their problem and him being heartless and lazy is faster than having to come up with a convoluted reason for why he won't help.

[GodVegetto91]

Whis knew about Buu's destruction in the manga. He just didn't bother to wake up Beerus about it, for some reasons. And Whis was training Goku and Vegeta when Freeza was revived.

Mind telling me which chapter this was elaborated on?

Chapter 15:

Whis: Oh dear, this is not good at all for Beerus-sama! I had better wake him but... He might be particularly furious. And after all... So long as the Kaiôshin that Beerus-sama sealed is alive, all will be well! Ho Ho Ho (laughs)! Wow... Dai Kaiôshin-sama was just captured (absorbed) by the Majin... Beerus: Mnya Mnya... Dying Kaiôshin: Da... Dai Kaiôshin-sama has been... [We see Rou Kaiôshin in the seal.]


https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... ed_photos/

Do you have the actual scan where Whis says that, and where you can see Old Kaioshin in the seal as stated and the flashback to Majin Buu terrorizing the Kai’s?

[HeroR]

Mind telling me which chapter this was elaborated on?

Chapter 15:

Whis: Oh dear, this is not good at all for Beerus-sama! I had better wake him but... He might be particularly furious. And after all... So long as the Kaiôshin that Beerus-sama sealed is alive, all will be well! Ho Ho Ho (laughs)! Wow... Dai Kaiôshin-sama was just captured (absorbed) by the Majin... Beerus: Mnya Mnya... Dying Kaiôshin: Da... Dai Kaiôshin-sama has been... [We see Rou Kaiôshin in the seal.]


https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... ed_photos/

Do you have the actual scan where Whis says that, and where you can see Old Kaioshin in the seal as stated and the flashback to Majin Buu terrorizing the Kai’s?

I don't have the scan. Everything I know is in the link I placed.

[Miracles]

Wow, why are people shocked at Beerus response to Namek's distress? I immediately said "LOL, that's Beerus!"

I appreciate Moro saying Goku and Vegeta were never a threat, even after seeing Super Saiyan Blue. That's good news for Moro's full power!

I wonder how Bulma's role will play out in this arc?

[Miracles]

Wow, why are people shocked at Beerus response to Namek's distress? I immediately said "LOL, that's Beerus!"

I appreciate Moro saying Goku and Vegeta were never a threat, even after seeing Super Saiyan Blue. That's good news for Moro's full power!

I wonder how Bulma's role will play out in this arc?

[BWri]

I get the feeling that the rest of this arc is going to take place on Namek and I really don't like that. We have seen this kind of story in Dragon Ball play out before. The only things that are actually intriguing me are Moro's powers, the involvement of the Galactic Patrol and Buu playing an important factor in all of this.

I did like that they were building up how the Namekians were assimilating to create a powerful warrior, only for that warrior to get completely one-shotted like nothing. Since this is going to take place on Namek from now on, can Piccolo get involved somehow? I know the exact same happened in the Freeza arc, but fuck it. There are enough similar story beats already, may as well add Piccolo.

LMAO! I always feel this way nowadays. It's like, seriously, might as well just make the cool fan-favorite characters relavent to the story power-wise. Piccolo is long overdue IMO, so what would it hurt to boost his power to plot relevance at this point