Vic Mignogna

[Shaddy]

Dude, don't be an ass. There is a fucking lot to unpack here and so long as we're not getting any new specific news to discuss we should be spending our time in the thread deducing and explaining the behaviors we observe from the people it discusses, and that includes looking at the history of the ideologies they embody (or at least project). It's not like the guy was born to grope people. It would be a lot easier if he was.

[JulieYBM]

The thread exists because of the ongoing news of Vic Mignogna. Not to make tangent rant posts debating about political ideologies while ignoring the original thread. Also telling people to leave the site or asking them to be banned for having differing opinions is very immature and ridiculous.

To solve the problem that Mic Vignogna is a symptom of we must address the root causation of the phenomenon.

Additionally, supporting a verified sexual abuser of both adults and children alike does not an opinion make. You prefer vanilla ice cream over strawberry? Perfectly valid opinion and not in anyway a bannable offense. Advocating for a sociopath and refusing to acknowledge the testimony of dozens of victims and photographic and video proof? That's a real problem that will only perpetuate the cancer eating our society alive.

I didn't realize this thread was titled "Let's solve the Mic Vignogna problem by debating political ideologies". I thought it was about the ongoing Vic Mignogna news. My bad! As you were..

I realize that you're not interested in the idea of having a discussion with actual substance and care only for flowery words and platitudes so as to continue the status quo but please, please don't post in a discussion if you have zero intention of actually constructing a substance-based post.

[RandomGuy96]

Actually the MeToo movement has ALSO reached Japan! In much less spectacular fashion but it has. Read this article on Hiroko Konishi and all she had to suffer.


https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... ry/.143311


This is why I will never watch the original Fruits Basket anime.


Also Tomokazu Seki is THE Vic Mignogna of Japan. He's so awful that many actresses dont want to work with him anymore.

I wonder when it will reach Korea (the capitalist i.e. prosperous one), given the HUGE scandal that just occurred there among the k-pop industry that may literally cost their nation billions of dollars of exports. Baby steps, I guess.

[SaiyaSith]

To solve the problem that Mic Vignogna is a symptom of we must address the root causation of the phenomenon.

Additionally, supporting a verified sexual abuser of both adults and children alike does not an opinion make. You prefer vanilla ice cream over strawberry? Perfectly valid opinion and not in anyway a bannable offense. Advocating for a sociopath and refusing to acknowledge the testimony of dozens of victims and photographic and video proof? That's a real problem that will only perpetuate the cancer eating our society alive.

I didn't realize this thread was titled "Let's solve the Mic Vignogna problem by debating political ideologies". I thought it was about the ongoing Vic Mignogna news. My bad! As you were..

I realize that you're not interested in the idea of having a discussion with actual substance and care only for flowery words and platitudes so as to continue the status quo but please, please don't post in a discussion if you have zero intention of actually constructing a substance-based post.

All of my posts in this thread have been substantive news pertaining to this story that nobody else has posted. Until now.

[Fionordequester]

All of my posts in this thread have been substantive news pertaining to this story that nobody else has posted. Until now.

...Really? I've been following this thread since it started...and I'll be honest, I haven't noticed any change. Heck, this thread got derailed so many times, even by such folks as Michael Jackson and Sonic the Hedgehog.

Believe me, this nowhere NEAR constitutes a derail!

[JulieYBM]

I didn't realize this thread was titled "Let's solve the Mic Vignogna problem by debating political ideologies". I thought it was about the ongoing Vic Mignogna news. My bad! As you were..

I realize that you're not interested in the idea of having a discussion with actual substance and care only for flowery words and platitudes so as to continue the status quo but please, please don't post in a discussion if you have zero intention of actually constructing a substance-based post.

All of my posts in this thread have been substantive news pertaining to this story that nobody else has posted. Until now.

'Substance' on your terms requires disregarding analyzing the root of the problem so as to become more self-aware in favor of not even making the attempt at progression while feigning some milquetoast attempt at pragmatism is not actually being substantive. Actively mocking the idea of discussing the root cause of the issue at hand exposes you for what you are: not serious.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Imo discussing a more broad problem is an important part of even individual cases like this. For example, if there was a hate crime, we would all be going over what could have motivated them, and what in society as a whole could possibly affect people towards committing hate crimes. So, I don't understand what the problem is with politics having some element in this, considering that all broad problems that could affect or help motivate things like this are inherently political.

[KBABZ]

I feel like the topic got inherently political because we've got discussions about why a culture that supports Vic and his actions (or the belief that he never did them) would emerge and exist in the first place, and that goes back a VERY long time indeed, and involves everything from how white males have treated people who aren't those two things (including denial of sexual harassment evidence and how that affects the behaviour of the victims) right up to casual sexual harassment in popular anime (which, let's be honest, Dragon Ball has built at least a small part of its name on). No matter which side you're on in that discussion, it's going to be part of it eventually.

In addition to that it also got inherently political once the #IStandWithVic crowd put the blame on SJWs. There's kinda no going back from that one.

Imo discussing a more broad problem is an important part of even individual cases like this. For example, if there was a hate crime, we would all be going over what could have motivated them, and what in society as a whole could possibly affect people towards committing have crimes. So, I don't understand what the problem is with politics having some elements in this, considering that all broad problems that could affect or help motivate things like this are inherently political.

This too!

[Kunzait_83]

Given your other posts and the specific wording here I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt once and assume you're being satirical. But even so, Jesus Fucking Christ, this discussion has gone way too far past the Poe's Law threshold to be posting some shit like this.

Even on the off-chance that WAS somehow supposed to be "satirical" in some totally asinine way: the golden rule of dark, offensive humor is to both actually be witty/clever about it, and have some kind of underlying deeper point to it.

Not only did he certainly not accomplish the latter (almost goes without saying), he didn't even come VAGUELY close to the former and actually be even remotely within the same zipcode as funny or clever, even totally outside of and divorced from the context of both this thread and the overall hideous social/cultural environment of the present.

But yeah, given both the thread in question here and the general climate overall right now: COMPLETELY not in any way the time or place to be pulling the "I'm using over-the-top racist language ironically" card. Particularly given that that's PRECISELY the exact bullshit excuse that tons of deeply racist, fascist trolls online are pulling to explain their motives and rationale for what they're doing and why.

Just utterly tone-deaf as all hell. At best.

[KBABZ]

But yeah, given both the thread in question here and the general climate overall right now: COMPLETELY not in any way the time or place to be pulling the "I'm using over-the-top racist language ironically" card. Particularly given that that's PRECISELY the exact bullshit excuse that tons of deeply racist, fascist trolls online are pulling to explain their motives and rationale for what they're doing and why.

Just utterly tone-deaf as all hell. At best.

As someone with Autism, it's also possible (albeit slim) that he didn't even know it was racist terminology. I certainly didn't until you guys made it pretty clear they were.

[Shaddy]

In fairness, I had no idea "uppity" could be racist until literally right now either. I guess I'll remember to not use that one.

But it honestly warps my perception of reality slightly from the start, because they were replying to an exchange they weren't even involved in and most of their posts in this thread seem to be about as anti-Vic as any average user participating in this thread, so to come out with an overblown and condescending "don't tell ME how to act" (???) reaction to someone saying blackface is bad is a confusing surprise at the least.

[JulieYBM]

But yeah, given both the thread in question here and the general climate overall right now: COMPLETELY not in any way the time or place to be pulling the "I'm using over-the-top racist language ironically" card. Particularly given that that's PRECISELY the exact bullshit excuse that tons of deeply racist, fascist trolls online are pulling to explain their motives and rationale for what they're doing and why.

Just utterly tone-deaf as all hell. At best.

As someone with Autism, it's also possible (albeit slim) that he didn't even know it was racist terminology. I certainly didn't until you guys made it pretty clear they were.

Yeeaaaaaah, holy fuck is it bad. 'Boy' was used towards grown-ass men to dehumanize them and their place in society while 'uppity' was used based on the idea that African-Americans were somehow being unreasonable and elitist in their fight for equality.

Jesus Christ, it's horrifying to see that terminology used.

[Fionordequester]

Yeeaaaaaah, holy fuck is it bad. 'Boy' was used towards grown-ass men to dehumanize them and their place in society while 'uppity' was used based on the idea that African-Americans were somehow being unreasonable and elitist in their fight for equality.

Jesus Christ, it's horrifying to see that terminology used.

Actually, I didn't even know that "uppity" had racist connotations to it!, even having graduated from a $36,845 per year university! After having taken "Cross Cultural Issues in Psychology", too !

[JulieYBM]

Yeeaaaaaah, holy fuck is it bad. 'Boy' was used towards grown-ass men to dehumanize them and their place in society while 'uppity' was used based on the idea that African-Americans were somehow being unreasonable and elitist in their fight for equality.

Jesus Christ, it's horrifying to see that terminology used.

Actually, I didn't even know that "uppity" had racist connotations to it!, even having graduated from a $36,845 per year university! After having taken "Cross Cultural Issues in Psychology", too!

Love going into massive debt for an education from an institution biased toward maintaining the status quo and not seriously analyzing the failing of the cancerous system we refuse to criticize.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's understandable why most sensible people would want to keep quiet, stop engaging in pointless debates and presume this is all over. But the other side had this propaganda mill churning nonstop since this all started and it's only sucking more and more people in. With stuff like this, we're starting to see the impact.

You literally just summed up a substantial part of how it was that the past 30-someodd years (or more) of the most corrosively idiotic, self-destructive, and amoral political decisions and courses of action in modern North American history were allowed to continue to fester and grow to become eventually seen as "conventional wisdom" without anywhere NEAR enough proper pushback and challenge.

And furthermore, why its so crucially important in general for most sane, rational people to NOT just passively sit by on the sidelines and tell themselves the comforting, passifying lie that "None of this is MY problem" or that "Eventually this'll all blow over and cooler heads will somehow prevail".

I'm talking of course about even MUCH broader, further-reaching issues here than either just this one Mignogna thing, or even MeToo as a collective whole: this post just happened to perfectly land on such a massively crucial piece of why and how it is that propaganda, even of the most blatantly ridiculous and asinine sort and within a more technologically advanced, "hyperconnected" and information-drenched time can manage to still be so effective and override reality and the truth for so many people who OUGHT to know better.

Its not ALL of the reason by any means, but indeed the inaction and passivity of so many average, day to day people who tell themselves "Nobody's stupid or delusional enough to believe THAT" when they see clear examples of grotesque disinformation in the mass media and mass consciousness and who don't allow themselves to think about or acknowledge the widespread acceptance of clear and stark acts of inhumane barbarism and injustice that have persisted for so long that they've become seen as "normal" and "just the way things are"... that inaction and the excuses (many of them unbelievably stupid, cowardly, and self-defeating) that so many people come up with to talk themselves out of getting involved and trying to do something to help fight it is certainly a substantial part of the equation unto itself.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." and all of that.

I find it extra rich and drenched in irony that a subculture and fandom that is so RIFE with people who's entire lives and identities hinge on zealously worshiping and idolizing larger than life fictional fantasy comic book superhero characters like Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, the X-Men, or the Avengers, etc...

...and yet who take literally NOTHING of any real value from their examples of what "morality" and "heroism" should be, and either lie down and cower in blind, head-in-the-sand acceptance of real life injustice and barbarism and ignore ample opportunities to step up and live up to the example and ideal set by their fictional heroes in a practical, real life manner that can actually potentially do ACTUAL good for real people... or at worst will gleefully take part themselves in participating in the wreaking of that injustice upon others, acting more or less EXACTLY like the kind of thugs and bullies that their comic books heroes - if they existed in real life somehow - would be utterly repulsed by and would actively fight against and lay down their lives to protect and defend the sorts of people they take such glee in victimizing.

It takes a SPECIAL kind of myopic, uncritical eye and total lack of self-awareness to not spot the obvious oxymoron of a dude on Youtube videos with a room plastered full of Marvel and DC Hero shit (Captain America, Superman, Spider-Man, etc) taking sadistic joy and glee in defending the sleaziest of people who victimize and prey on others, to the point of bullying their victims (or potential victims) just for the petty spite of it.

Pretty much no one actually believes that they are evil and that they intend to cause harm just for evil's sake. They believe from their perspective that they are doing good.

The Islamic terrorist believes that they are saving people's souls from Hell.

The Neo-Nazi believes that they are saving the 'white race' from extinction.

Everyone is the hero of their own story, even if it requires the most ridiculous logic to justify it.

[Kunzait_83]

In fairness, I had no idea "uppity" was racist either. I guess I'll remember to not use that one.

As someone with Autism, it's also possible (albeit slim) that he didn't even know it was racist terminology. I certainly didn't until you guys made it pretty clear they were.

Its a beyond sad and pathetic indictment of the historical/contextual bankruptcy of modern educational standards that I even HAVE to give ANYONE above the age of 5 a basic history lesson of this nature. But fine, here goes:

In the old days (like, the 1800s and early 1900s, and times when blackface in general was basically totally accepted and popular), a common term for black people who spoke up or defended themselves from racist words and rhetoric in ANY WAY was "uppity negro". That, and the condescending use of the word "boy" instead of their name or at least a simple "Mr."

Like... this is VERY basic, well known historical terminology in how white people used to talk down to black people back in the day any time one of them DARED to "talk back" or "complain" too loudly in any way. A black person who tried to fight back in ANY way and stand up for themselves were then seen among white society as being the worst, or at least most annoying and irritating, thing that a black person could be to white people back then: an "uppity negro". To be talked down to and dismissed like a misbehaving child that's acting out and throwing a tantrum in a toy store.

Again, this was VERY common (stereotypically so) dehumanizing, belittling, and outright infantilizing language against black people intended to be dismissive of them whenever they tried to fight back: language that is VERY well deeply baked into the national/cultural consciousness to the point where its basically on more or less the same general playing field as a racist calling a black person they happen to personally like and get along with "one of the good ones".

Xanatos basically replied to someone (who may well be black themselves) getting pissed about defending blackface by saying "don't get uppity with me" and referring to them as "boy". EXACTLY the sort of context that an old-school racist would use that kind of wording back in the day.

Yeah... that is WAY too fucking on-the-nose to be in ANY WAY coincidental. The BEST possible reading is that it was an INCREDIBLY piss-poor, fucking outright braindead attempt at humor and being "ironic" (same thing that countless thousands of 4chan morons have claimed is their intention when they post Klan and Nazi shit). The worst possibility... well, you get the idea.

Also telling people to leave the site or asking them to be banned for having differing opinions is very immature and ridiculous.

Xanatos wasn't taking shit from people here for "having a differing opinion": it was because he said something ridiculously, fucking garishly racist, in a manner and context that is NOT AT ALL remotely ok for ANYONE to be doing.

Setting aside the possibility he was making a (unbelievably, colossally) poor and stupid attempt at "humor" - if he was serious, then defending blackface, in general and PARTICULARLY by telling someone who is (rightly and justifiably) offended by it to "quit being uppity boy"... that's NOT a "matter of one's opinion" that you get to just have and trot out freely on a site who's owner is STAUNCHLY against giving a platform to such garbage.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and declare right now the "Mommy and daddy are fighting!" crowd to be almost approaching as grating, moronic, unhelpful, and generally awful as the outward scumbag hate-mongers and sexual assault-apologists. If the worst thing in the world to you ISN'T people being hurt in real life and their attackers lionized and protected en-masse by people within your own fandom (or just, y'know, in general) but rather its the fact that people are getting (VERY correctly and justly) angry and heated about something legitimately serious that actually matters and has real stakes for real people's safety and well-being:

You are the very textbook definition of a total fucking pussbag spineless coward, and the only party in any of this that your lame-ass, impotent whining is helping or benefiting are the people who are doing the victimizing. There isn't ANY way to sugarcoat this: this is one of those instances unfortunately where if you're not part of the solution, then you are at a bare minimum helping to at least SLIGHTLY nudge along the problem.

If some harsh words and a stern tone are all it takes to set you off and try to pull some kind of dimwitted, myopic, disingenuous "both side-ism" bullshit ("The problem is EVERYONE is taking this TOO SERIOUSLY and NEEDS TO CALM DOWN and be CIVIL to one another! EVERYONE'S entitled to their opinion: even if that opinion is that sexual assault is perfectly ok and a victimless crime!"): then honestly, it would be FAR better for EVERYONE involved if you just left the thread entirely and stayed out of it completely.

If you don't have enough skin in the game or enough of a fucking backbone in general to take a genuinely principled stand against even some of the most indefensibly sick, twisted slime pouring from the mouths of some of the people involved in this clusterfuck and say unequivocally "This shit is NOT fucking welcome or acceptable here."... then honestly, its better you just shut the hell up and clear out of the way rather than lay in the middle of the road and act as ultimately just another useful idiot to the Redpill-leaning freaks and sickos by furthering and bolstering this completely idiotic false-equivalence that "Both sides are entitled to their opinions, and no one is right or wrong here, and the worst possible thing that anyone can conceivably do here is yell at someone and hurt their feelings slightly."

This isn't a fucking "Which musical score to a 1980s & 90s Japanese kids cartoon do you prefer?" thread: this is about not just real life crimes with real life victims (who's personal physical safety to whatever degree is a legitimate cause of concern), but yes, its also about the MUCH deeper - and indeed quite poisonous - social, cultural, and psychological underpinnings at play in not just the people who COMMIT these crimes physically, but moreover the rest of society around them that ALLOWS them to continue committing them by either just looking the other way or worse by actively PROTECTING them.

The usual "Keep everything Shonen" rules of the site simply DO NOT and CANNOT apply in this particular case. Either have something legitimately useful or constructive to add, or else go find a Power Rangers or Yu-Gi-Oh fan forum somewhere else to wallow in for awhile and get the fuck out of everyone else's way. Period.

Because then otherwise your continuing to hang around a thread/conflict that you claim is bothering and distressing you so much with how heated its getting and doing nothing but continuing to basically paint the situation as "both sides are totally equal" (which again only helps and lends undue legitimacy to the pro-Vic goons) calls into question how supposedly "neutral" on this matter you ACTUALLY are deep down.

[Fionordequester]

Love going into massive debt for an education from an institution biased toward maintaining the status quo and not seriously analyzing the failing of the cancerous system we refuse to criticize.

Well...it was a mostly white university, yeah. To be fair, though, the teacher teaching "Cross Cultural Issues in Psychology" (a white woman) was brutally honest enough that someone actually dropped the class on their first day.

The university was woefully inadequate... yes... and a lot of the alumni realized it. And the kicker? Despite our best intentions, we don't actually have a lot of interaction with the ones who need our help the most. Hence, it's hard to break out of our bubble without outspoken folks like you around.

So... thank you for all you've said and done. From the bottom of my heart.

[Kunzait_83]

Actually, I didn't even know that "uppity" had racist connotations to it!, even having graduated from a $36,845 per year university! After having taken "Cross Cultural Issues in Psychology", too !

Well...it was a mostly white university, yeah. To be fair, though, the teacher teaching "Cross Cultural Issues in Psychology" (a white woman) was brutally honest enough that someone actually dropped the class on their first day.

The university was woefully inadequate... yes... and a lot of the alumni realized it. And the kicker? Despite our best intentions, we don't actually have a lot of interaction with the ones who need our help the most.

This won't make you feel any better, but the GRADE SCHOOL that I went to as a kid has taught us pretty much ALL of this stuff about black history and slavery in EXCEEDINGLY GREAT detail. Starting from the 1st fucking grade. And I went to school in a VERY poor, filthy, rundown Catholic school in an extremely poverty and drug-stricken inner city neighborhood.

That there are parts of the country that won't even teach goddamn COLLEGE STUDENTS about some of this stuff is a fucking grotesque crime and about as indefensibly clear-cut an example of propagandistic indoctrination and historical whitewashing as it gets.

A middle or upper-middle class 20-something University student in the 2010s should NOT have a significantly lesser understanding in ANY way of America's complex and dark history with racism and race relations overall than a poor, inner-city 1st grader did in 1989. That's about as clear and objective a failure of the modern educational system as it gets.

[KBABZ]

The only time I was educated on this stuff in school was in my Social Studies high school class where we had a multi-week section teaching us about black rights, mainly through the focus of the Rosa Parks and MLK era. I can't recall if we covered any of the history of the subject before or after that that period in time, but we certainly didn't get into a breakdown of racist words beyond "Obviously people don't use the words negro or nigger anymore because they're offensive now". I also read To Kill a Mockingbird in my English class, which was educational as well on the topic overall.

Also keep in mind that I've lived in New Zealand my whole life, so that same class put more emphasis on NZ history, including Cook's discovery of the country, the colonization, the Treaty of Waitangi and why it's such a controversial topic (spoilers: translating words and their exact meanings is hard in Maori too!), the Musket Wars, ANZACs and Gallipoli, our Prime Ministers and what they did, and the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior. I didn't go to University so I can't speak to that part of the system.

[Cursed Lemon]

That there are people in here who are not aware that "uppity" is a racist term perfectly and completely explains the prevailing boorish naivete on the subject of sexual assault through this thread.

Like, to the damn letter.