When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Regarder » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am

Here's a horror scenario: what if Toriyama just retcons the End of Z out of existence? He's already tweaked that ending sequence the most out of any of the stuff in re-releases of the manga, so what if he gets rid of it entirely to justify the current storyline? Obviously Oob still has to get involved somehow, but it might be completely different.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by emperior » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:37 am

Regarder wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am
Here's a horror scenario: what if Toriyama just retcons the End of Z out of existence? He's already tweaked that ending sequence the most out of any of the stuff in re-releases of the manga, so what if he gets rid of it entirely to justify the current storyline? Obviously Oob still has to get involved somehow, but it might be completely different.
That’s basically impossible. He wouldn’t completely change the ending of his manga, and he’s shown he doesn’t intend to do so by keeping Pan and Bra and by mentioning Uub.
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by funrush » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:07 pm

I imagine Toriyama is hesitant to leave pre-EOZ for 2 reasons:
  • He doesn't really want to overwrite GT yet. Yes, there's lots of continuity problems that make Super and GT incompatible, but GT is still moderately popular and sells a lot of toys, so I think he wants to avoid scrapping the property for as long as he can.
  • Toriyama is sticking with Goku as the protagonist for the rest of the franchise, and he's already middle-aged. He's enjoying writing these characters in Super's time period because he gets to utilize the entire Z cast, and not have to worry about Goku/Vegeta getting old and having to do another passing-the-torch attempt like with Gohan. I think if we do move past EoZ, the series that does will take place just shortly after EoZ, just to keep Goku young.
That Toriyama interview snippet is pretty interesting. I wonder if he'll ever do side-stories for different parts in Z, like maybe a Goku on Yardrat adventure?

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Raimundo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:31 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:55 pm
Raimundo wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:42 pm
Lionel wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:00 am
Yeah, in terms of characterisation and aesthetics it's remained the same throughout the entirety of Super's run. Question is, if they do decide to go past EoZ, where do they take it from there? If they continue with the same stale formula except with older faces then what difference will there be? I think some things would need to change for this time-shift to have any substantial meaning. One of the most obvious would be taking some inspiration from the early days of Dragon Ball Z and allowing for a greater array of characters to be tangibly involved with the conflict; minus the over-dependency on Goku, of course.
Those days were overly dependent on Goku too though. The only difference is, he was taken out of the way so that his friends could fail to make him look even greater when he returned. Namek and Cell saga gave a bit more for them to do but by the time the Ginyu Force showed up they were reduced to being there to make Goku look good again, and in the case of Cell, they had zero hopes of succeeding until Goku waking up from a 10 day coma suggested the Rosat, an option the humans and Piccolo don’t even think about despite them all knowing about it.
I did give a stipulative acknowledgement to that. When I think of a broader, more all-encompassing involvement one thing that comes to mind is the Vegeta fight where everyone played a significant tangible role. Characters shouldn't be deprived of their initiative just to accommodate for the position Goku has. When having to do that, it seems artificial and tawdry. Toriyama doesn't even bother to allow his characters to properly utilise every resource the story has given them. If he did, he would have a much more difficult time justifying certain failures or event executions because someone like Piccolo could just use the Mafuba to seal away the opponent or Krillin could attempt to use the Kienzan, provided the enemy doesn't regenerate. Super has actually gone to some lengths in trying to rectify this problem, but there's still a lot to be desired.
I agree with that. It’s a nice start but could see further improvement going forward.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 pm

Do we know how much time has passed between each arc of Super? For example, how much time passed between Fused Zamasu's defeat and the Tournament of Power? Weeks? Months? Years?

Because if there is a one year gap between every arc, then a good chunk of the time gap between Kid Boo and the End of Z has already been filled.
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:29 pm

being really sincere, I don't care much about the epilogue, so if they change it, it would benefit the story by not being limited.
in the anime only 2 years have passed. given that they do not tell you how much has happened since the buu arc.

In the film, 4 years passed between the buu arc and now, between 5 years maybe.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:27 pm

I get the sense Toriyama doesn’t want anything to do with post EoZ stories. I think he will shove in a couple more years worth of arcs between now and the 28th, have Goku leave with Uub and then step away for good never to return to the franchise

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:35 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:29 pm
being really sincere, I don't care much about the epilogue, so if they change it, it would benefit the story by not being limited.
in the anime only 2 years have passed. given that they do not tell you how much has happened since the buu arc.

In the film, 4 years passed between the buu arc and now, between 5 years maybe.
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:37 am
Regarder wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am
Here's a horror scenario: what if Toriyama just retcons the End of Z out of existence? He's already tweaked that ending sequence the most out of any of the stuff in re-releases of the manga, so what if he gets rid of it entirely to justify the current storyline? Obviously Oob still has to get involved somehow, but it might be completely different.
That’s basically impossible. He wouldn’t completely change the ending of his manga, and he’s shown he doesn’t intend to do so by keeping Pan and Bra and by mentioning Uub.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 pm
Do we know how much time has passed between each arc of Super? For example, how much time passed between Fused Zamasu's defeat and the Tournament of Power? Weeks? Months? Years?

Because if there is a one year gap between every arc, then a good chunk of the time gap between Kid Boo and the End of Z has already been filled.
According to many sources, as of now, DBS has 2 and a half years until the End of Z. So really, its kind of already been retconned since Bulma claims that they haven’t seen each other in 5 years and she looks WAY older. And I dont see how the Bulma we have in DBS now can get so much older looking in 2 and a half years. But then again, Future Bulma in DBS looked younger too, lol.

But yeah, honestly, a complete retcon of the End of Z isn’t out of the question. Or maybe having the End of Z be retconned and replaced by an updated version with Beerus and Whis and other things but still keeping the Tournament and fighting Uub.

But damn, that interview kinda has me skeptical. But at the same time, i feel like Shueisha should know that opportunities that come with a time skip. New designs for everyone which means loads of new merch. Not to mention, if they actually do have people keeping out for stuff the fans talk about a lot, they may know that many db fans want DBS to go after the End of Z.

And it seems as though the way DBS stories work is that the DBRoom (run by Shueisha) gives Toriyama a main idea or topic and he writes a story outline centered around it for Toei or Toyo to fill in the blanks creating the arc. So maybe the DBRoom will give Toriyama a main idea or topic about a conflict taking place after the End of Z?

One can only hope.
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Grimlock » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 pm
Do we know how much time has passed between each arc of Super? For example, how much time passed between Fused Zamasu's defeat and the Tournament of Power? Weeks? Months? Years?
Days, weeks or one month from Universe 6 saga to Future Trunks saga and one year from Universe 6 saga to Universe Survival saga (AGE 779, AGE 779 and AGE 780, respectively).
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 pm
Because if there is a one year gap between every arc, then a good chunk of the time gap between Kid Boo and the End of Z has already been filled.
They could have wisely used AGE 775, AGE 776 and AGE 777. The former and the latter years are totally blank, while the middle one only had the Tarble, Abo and Cado appearance, instead of squeezing a lot of events in such a short time period from one another.
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:16 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:35 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:29 pm
being really sincere, I don't care much about the epilogue, so if they change it, it would benefit the story by not being limited.
in the anime only 2 years have passed. given that they do not tell you how much has happened since the buu arc.

In the film, 4 years passed between the buu arc and now, between 5 years maybe.
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:37 am
Regarder wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am
Here's a horror scenario: what if Toriyama just retcons the End of Z out of existence? He's already tweaked that ending sequence the most out of any of the stuff in re-releases of the manga, so what if he gets rid of it entirely to justify the current storyline? Obviously Oob still has to get involved somehow, but it might be completely different.
That’s basically impossible. He wouldn’t completely change the ending of his manga, and he’s shown he doesn’t intend to do so by keeping Pan and Bra and by mentioning Uub.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 pm
Do we know how much time has passed between each arc of Super? For example, how much time passed between Fused Zamasu's defeat and the Tournament of Power? Weeks? Months? Years?

Because if there is a one year gap between every arc, then a good chunk of the time gap between Kid Boo and the End of Z has already been filled.
According to many sources, as of now, DBS has 2 and a half years until the End of Z. So really, its kind of already been retconned since Bulma claims that they haven’t seen each other in 5 years and she looks WAY older. And I dont see how the Bulma we have in DBS now can get so much older looking in 2 and a half years. But then again, Future Bulma in DBS looked younger too, lol.

But yeah, honestly, a complete retcon of the End of Z isn’t out of the question. Or maybe having the End of Z be retconned and replaced by an updated version with Beerus and Whis and other things but still keeping the Tournament and fighting Uub.

But damn, that interview kinda has me skeptical. But at the same time, i feel like Shueisha should know that opportunities that come with a time skip. New designs for everyone which means loads of new merch. Not to mention, if they actually do have people keeping out for stuff the fans talk about a lot, they may know that many db fans want DBS to go after the End of Z.

And it seems as though the way DBS stories work is that the DBRoom (run by Shueisha) gives Toriyama a main idea or topic and he writes a story outline centered around it for Toei or Toyo to fill in the blanks creating the arc. So maybe the DBRoom will give Toriyama a main idea or topic about a conflict taking place after the End of Z?

One can only hope.
Hold up, i dont think the “2 1/2 years until End of Z” thing is legit. Maybe its 2 1/2 years have passed since BoG. Since the End of Z is Age 784 and we’re currently in Age 780.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:14 am

I hope so. It's killing any tension for me with Super. Super has been more about "How will Goku and Vegeta defeat this foe" as opposed to "Will Goku and Vegeta survive this encounter" and it's really killed any tension for me.

When they announced the Tournament of Power and said that "the universes that lose will be erased", I was like "okay, cool. How will they win?" Granted, there were a lot of interesting developments with it. But those few things ultimately could not make up for the lack of any real tension or worry that our heroes would lose, which is what made Dragonball and Z so good in my opinion

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by louisascommie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:50 am

When battle of God's was in development they didn't know how much more stuff they wanted to shove on this time frame so thats why they used pan as a plot piont.

When it limits the time frame

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by superfan2024 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:09 pm

funrush wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:07 pm
I imagine Toriyama is hesitant to leave pre-EOZ for 2 reasons:
  • He doesn't really want to overwrite GT yet. Yes, there's lots of continuity problems that make Super and GT incompatible, but GT is still moderately popular and sells a lot of toys, so I think he wants to avoid scrapping the property for as long as he can.
  • Toriyama is sticking with Goku as the protagonist for the rest of the franchise, and he's already middle-aged. He's enjoying writing these characters in Super's time period because he gets to utilize the entire Z cast, and not have to worry about Goku/Vegeta getting old and having to do another passing-the-torch attempt like with Gohan. I think if we do move past EoZ, the series that does will take place just shortly after EoZ, just to keep Goku young.
That Toriyama interview snippet is pretty interesting. I wonder if he'll ever do side-stories for different parts in Z, like maybe a Goku on Yardrat adventure?
The same thing can be argued for OG DBZ Broly.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:21 pm

I'd love for Super to go into EOZ territory and beyond, but it's safe to say that Toriyama has zero interest (at this time) of taking Super into that area. The ten year gap is perfect for Toriyama to tell stories as everything is pretty much set in stone already for the main cast in terms of progression, so he doesn't have to worry about how he's going to build on the cast's characterization, and focus more on gag humor and whimsical martial arts confrontations.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Alruneia » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:20 pm

First off, I feel like this is relevant:
Alruneia wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:11 am
There's no need to push the view where going next generation means throwing out Goku. First of all, that is not going to happen. Goku has been the main character for far too long at this point, it's too late to change that (you're just gonna get "This isn't Dragon Ball anymore" complaints). And secondly, it's not even necessary to try to do that! You can easily introduce a new generation of fighters without "dethroning" Goku or even Vegeta. Don't try to replace the popular "main" characters that people are so attached to. Instead, expand the cast of active characters directly, or replace old members of the supporting cast.
Don't fall into the false dichotomy of "Either we stay before EoZ, or we replace Goku".

To the main question:
Back when the ToP was still happening, I would've told you that it could be the final arc before EoZ. Now that the ToP has passed, the Broly movie/arc has happened, and we're in the middle of the Moro arc, though, it seems very unlikely that we're going to get anywhere fast. Of course, the Moro arc could be the last arc before EoZ, but it could easily also be the 6th last arc before EoZ, or the 14th last one. There's no real way of telling and there's no sign of any intent to move on from this timeframe (see Goten, Trunks and Marron never growing up).
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by emperior » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:47 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:21 pm
I'd love for Super to go into EOZ territory and beyond, but it's safe to say that Toriyama has zero interest (at this time) of taking Super into that area. The ten year gap is perfect for Toriyama to tell stories as everything is pretty much set in stone already for the main cast in terms of progression, so he doesn't have to worry about how he's going to build on the cast's characterization, and focus more on gag humor and whimsical martial arts confrontations.
You said it perfectly. They don’t want to go beyond the end of Z because they don’t want to progress the characters.
But isn’t the reason why people want Toriyama to write stories that he is the only one who can actually change his characters or introduce new traits? No one else besides him would have had the balls to have Vegeta bingo dancing, or Freeza wishing to be taller, or to write that Goku never kissed his wife.
It’s quite disheartening to see that Toriyama doesn’t want to risk more, because he could totally do so with the story.

I also don’t quite agree with the fact the main cast hasn’t had some sort of progression. Vegeta has a master-student relationship with Cabba and has shown his change resulting from Buu arc, we have had characters like Android 17 who has gone through some changes during the Tournament of Power, and Beerus too has changed a little.
Even characters like Krillin, Tenshinan, Roshi and Gohan feel different from where we left them back during the end of Buu arc. Krillin is now a policeman, but has gone back to martial arts training. Tenshinan has opened his own dojo (which is still something, considering his character arc actually ended way back in the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi), Roshi has decided to go back to training for martial arts, inspired by Goku and Krillin, and Gohan has married Videl, has a child, has accomplished his dream of becoming a scholar and has also surpassed his Buu arc power and fixed his arrogance.

But I agree that these progressions add nothing to the story. Which is why it feels like every arc begins at the same status quo as always. Even power-wise, Goku and Vegeta have been stuck at the same Super Saiyan Blue level “strong but not strong enough to be even near Beerus” ever since RoF. Which is detrimental to the sense of progression.
In fact the last arc which I feel had a sense of progression was actually RoF, considering it introduced Super Saiyan Blue and showed that both Goku and Vegeta were able to make the God forms their own after training with Whis.
U6 and FT were basically filler, with the former introducing the multiverse concept and Zeno, and the latter having the only (visible) consequence of there being two Zenos (with Toyotaro at least developing Super Saiyan Blue to give the story a better sense of progression, even if feels like an “artificial” one). So basically both were a setup for the ToP. Too bad the ToP too ended with no visible consequence but that Freeza is now alive and Ultra Instinct has been introduced.
Broly too has the only consequence that now there’s Broly too alive.
So we can basically sum up all of Super as a big introduction of new characters and concepts.

The problem is that story-wise there’s not much of a sense of progression because the arcs are all crammed, while back in the manga days there were many timeskips, with characters changing appearance, clothing, developing new relationships, learning new techniques etcetera. Not a single new arc started at the same status quo of the beginning of the previous arc.
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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Spencer_23 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:15 pm

That snippet of an interview was interesting but a little disheartening. I really think the end of Z designs and skip in general could really bring a freshness to the show even if they stick with it mostly being the Goku & Vegeta show.

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Coola Yagami » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:48 pm

I honestly don't see why the Moro arc couldn't have taken place sometime during the Buu saga time skip or something.

All of this either downplays or overpowers Buu. Back then Majin Buu was their most powerful threat and Uub was supposed to have comparable power, even managing to somewhat hurt Goku's arm.

So after Zamasu, Jiren, Broly and Moro, would Uub even be a big deal anymore? Would Uub be able to hurt the arm of a Goku that has had the power of the gods and Ultra instinct?

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:55 pm

Coola Yagami wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:48 pm
I honestly don't see why the Moro arc couldn't have taken place sometime during the Buu saga time skip or something.

All of this either downplays or overpowers Buu. Back then Majin Buu was their most powerful threat and Uub was supposed to have comparable power, even managing to somewhat hurt Goku's arm.

So after Zamasu, Jiren, Broly and Moro, would Uub even be a big deal anymore? Would Uub be able to hurt the arm of a Goku that has had the power of the gods and Ultra instinct?
Realistically given what we know? Probably not, no. Unless Goku somehow loses his god ki or he was limiting himself so greatly that he's registering at only a tiny fraction of a percentage of his base power, similar to Future Trunks when he registered at 5 while confronting Freeza, then Uub posing any kind of threat shouldn't be possible. Maybe the mentality was that Uub is the mother all of mutants, so to speak. Think back to Freeza's untapped potential or Broly's then apply something even more substantial, and bland (if speaking honestly), to Uub. Could that explain away why Goku was excited?

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Re: When Will We Ever Get Out of the Boo Fight - End of Z Rift?!

Post by funrush » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:11 pm

The Uub problem can be solved the same way they made Freeza relevant again. The angle they go for is Kid Buu never trained, Uub can, and could surpass Kid Buu relatively quickly.

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