Vic Mignogna

[Bryesque]

What you need to understand is that these are people who legitimately do not care if their arguments make sense. Their stance isn't about being right. It's about winning.

Any sane person who's not too naive or rock fucking stupid can do ten minutes of research to see that A. Vic's behavior is inappropriate and B. This is why he was fired and banned from cons. There is 1000% certain proof of that absolutely fucking everywhere, and it's all the conversation was originally about.

But that doesn't matter. Because his supporters were never working within facts and proof in the first place. It has always, always been governed by emotions. They're not acting like this because they're stupid. They know what they're doing and they're not ashamed. They legitimately do not possess the conscience to act reasonably here.

Oh yeah, I'm sadly familiar. It's the Shapiro-style "gamification" of discussion and debate. It's not about having an actual conversation and trying to arrive at the truth; it's a pure dominance game, winning by any means necessary, which is why it usually jumps to exhausting, abusing and humiliating the "enemy" extremely fast.

And yeah, it's especially disgusting when it's over actual important issues that are hurting people and affecting their lives. It's all turned into a game to them, so they don't even consider empathy or decency.

You can say the same on the kickvic side. The people saying listen and believe is the exact same as that.

Can you, though? There may be some instances of some individuals taking things to extremes, there always are, but ultimately I feel the "KickVic" side is coming from a genuine place - they believe Mignogna is a serial abuser, and their goal is to protect more vulnerable people from being victimized by him. Whether or not you share their belief, I don't think you can say their intention is malicious.

Meanwhile, look at any thread from the other side and take note of how much disgusting and cruel behaviour you see.

Hearing something and expecting it to be true is a dangerous thing nowadays. you need a bit of doubt. If you don’t, it’s just mob mentality. This is why courts exist. Why can’t people just rely on courts like they did on Cosby?

It's been explained multiple times in this thread why it's so hard to prove these cases in a court of law. If someone forces their tongue down your throat or gropes you in private, or without any physical evidence, what "proof" do you have? It's not so simple a matter as "take it to court", and there's a reason so many assaults aren't reported to the police - these are charges that are highly likely to be thrown out because there's no way to definitively prove them.

As for Cosby, I'll answer a question with a question: if more people had believed his accusers and taken them seriously in the first place, do you think maybe it wouldn't have taken decades for him to face consequences for his actions?

[kemuri07]

The problem with "waiting for the courts to decide" is that the stuff that we're talking about can't be quantified as rape (for the most part, since apparently there are actual rape allegations floating around) and it comes down directly to the victim's subjective feelings.

That, however, does not dismiss the victim claim's because intention doesn't mean anything. You know that saying: the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Well yeah. If we're actually going to deal with sexual harassment in the wake of #MeToo, then we need to stop simply relying on the definition that sexual harassment is only when a woman is actually physically attacked by some stranger in a dark alley when it's more usually men using their privilege or status in order to force women into uncomfortable situations. And yes sometimes that means full on rape.

But more importantly: VIC MIGNOGNA IS NOT YOUR FUCKING FRIEND. So the mass support from him simply because "you liked him in FMA" is not only petty--it's also fucking dangerously misguided.

[kemuri07]

Nothing has been proven yet so nobody knows whos right or who’s wrong now. It’s a stalemate until everything has been handled in court.

That's wrong, actually. Still not interested in catering to your rationalizing narrative. Again, read the thread. "Wait for the courts" is just your rationalization you think will vilify your opinion, and you will never for a second believe those courts could make an incorrect judgement until they don't work in your favor. Nobody has even pressed charges against Vic. This is not a court case.

I think the problem with a lot of people who are swayed by the kickvic side, is where they get their information from. For example, if you go on something like youtube for info about this sort of thing, I don't think I saw a single search result that supported KickVic in the first 30 or so results to showed up when looking up his name. I think its easy to be swayed by that sort of thing, if you don't have alternative sources or media platforms you use to corroborate that story, especially if your someone whose already kind of inclined about that sort of thing.

Of course. The pro-Vic propaganda is real and the people acting like total dumbasses in this thread are proof of that.

I just want reason to believe the other side. And they have offered nothing but insults to the other side and just listen and believe. I refuse to just believe without having legitimate reasoning to believe said thing.

There is plenty of reasons why people generally believe the victims--because there are dozens of allegations against the dude. And the idea that all of them either or lying or mistaken is ridiculous. But you keep trying to play the neutral card whenever people push back against you because you don't actually want proof. You just want to keep arguing so you can stay pro-Vic. Because agreeing that maybe Vic is skeevy might mean siding with the SJWs--and that's a no-no.

So of course it's way more believable that people are stealing photographs so they can lie about Vic. Makes sooooo much sense.

[Shaddy]

I just want reason to believe the other side. And they have offered nothing but insults to the other side and just listen and believe. I refuse to just believe without having legitimate reasoning to believe said thing.

READ

THE FUCKING

THREAD.

You know exactly what you're doing here. You don't want to believe the victims and their supporters. You have been given dozens of benefits of the doubt, you have had dozens of chances to research people's experiences in this thread, on twitter, in the ANN and Gizmodo articles and the comments on those articles. Photos on twitter and those same articles, apologies and admissions from the man himself, the disproportionate amount of people on your side justifying and saying his behavior is true and is his right!

You have nobody to fucking blame but yourself if you continue to idiotically follow this train of self-flagellating conspiracy theorists without paying attention to the context of the world, how false accusations happen, how often and to whom they happen, who commits them, how society views sexual assault and harassment, what it does to excuse people like Vic, and about a billion other cases like this, with as much obvious and clear evidence. You've chosen to follow a fabricated narrative of theoretical anti-Vic conspiracy by willfully ignoring human nature itself.

And yeah! I have no sympathy for that! You've done nothing but deny, deflect and minimize! You have only made yourself look less deserving of any respect on a normal level, and then have the gall to paint yourselves as the rEeEeEeEeL victims! Nobody is fucking falling for it. Your only defense is "I'm not like those guys", but your only action has been directly allying yourself with them.

[kemuri07]

I...I think Mooreish just got told.

[KBABZ]

Nothing has been proven yet

aka "Where's the evidence???" You don't need a court to tell you where Vic's hands are in a bunch of photos.

[Shaddy]

I...I think Mooreish just got told.

I appreciate the sentiment, but that was me regurgitating this entire thread at someone overall indifferent to those words. I never expected him to listen.

If a tree blames hundreds of victims and your saw is in a different location, that tree is never coming down. The only thing you can hope is that others see it and plant better trees (and metaphors).

[Mooreish]

I just want reason to believe the other side. And they have offered nothing but insults to the other side and just listen and believe. I refuse to just believe without having legitimate reasoning to believe said thing.

READ

THE FUCKING

THREAD.

You know exactly what you're doing here. You don't want to believe the victims and their supporters. You have been given dozens of benefits of the doubt, you have had dozens of chances to research people's experiences in this thread, on twitter, in the ANN and Gizmodo articles and the comments on those articles. Photos on twitter and those same articles, apologies and admissions from the man himself, the disproportionate amount of people on your side justifying and saying his behavior is true and is his right!

You have nobody to fucking blame but yourself if you continue to idiotically follow this train of self-flagellating conspiracy theorists without paying attention to the context of the world, how false accusations happen, how often and to whom they happen, who commits them, how society views sexual assault and harassment, what it does to excuse people like Vic, and about a billion other cases like this, with as much obvious and clear evidence. You've chosen to follow a fabricated narrative of theoretical anti-Vic conspiracy by willfully ignoring human nature itself.

And yeah! I have no sympathy for that! You've done nothing but deny, deflect and minimize! You have only made yourself look less deserving of any respect on a normal level, and then have the gall to paint yourselves as the rEeEeEeEeL victims! Nobody is fucking falling for it. Your only defense is "I'm not like those guys", but your only action has been directly allying yourself with them.

This is another reason I have trouble believing this stuff. The attitude the people have with it. Whenever I see a kickvicer, most of the time, they’re using insults or have an arrogant attitude with their claims. Also those people usually have done worse things. See dc Douglas and Neil Kaplan. Sometimes those people end up screwing themselves over by saying stupid **i* without thinking. See Amanda Winn lee Jamie marchi Monica rial Jamie McGonnigal and Samantha inoue hart. I have not found any istandwithvicers besides a rare few to have done anything but show evidence disproving certain claims put out by kickvic and they have also been polite unlike most kickvicers. The most well behaved out of everyone in istandwithvic so far has actually be the accused Vic Mignogna himself. Now you could say a silent man is a guilty man all you want, but this is how everyone should be behaving right now. Not saying anything and bide their time for the right time for action, like Johnny depp did. So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently. And you could say Vic should’ve acted professionally in these supposed situations that supposedly happen. And if they did supposedly happen, I would agree.but for now I’ll just wait for this all to end. It’s just tearing the anime community apart right now. The anime community is gonna change for the worst after all of this is said and done.

[Cursed Lemon]

So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently.

Maybe we really don't give a fuck what you think about it, especially if you base your opinion on the actual situation on how much people are willing to hold your hand and baby you about it.

"KickVic'ers are meeeaaaan, therefore Vic didn't do it!"

Get the fuck out of here.

[Zephyr]

"I really have trouble believing that the Earth might be round, because everyone telling me that it is are being the biggest jerks about it!"

[Saiga]

So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently.

So why do you keep ignoring all the horrible things Vic's defenders have done? You've never spoken out against the doxxing or sharing of children's images.

You've also ignored those that have been in this very thread, being polite and sharing information to support the allegations against Vic.

This doesn't come across as genuine at all.

[KBABZ]

This is another reason I have trouble believing this stuff. The attitude the people have with it. Whenever I see a kickvicer, most of the time, they’re using insults or have an arrogant attitude with their claims. Also those people usually have done worse things.

That's pretty rich considering the side of the argument you're on.

[Mooreish]

So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently.

So why do you keep ignoring all the horrible things Vic's defenders have done? You've never spoken out against the doxxing or sharing of children's images.

You've also ignored those that have been in this very thread, being polite and sharing information to support the allegations against Vic.

This doesn't come across as genuine at all.

That only just came out. And of course it’s bad but it’s been a one time occurance. And again, I haven’t read the past pages in a long time. I only remember bits and pieces of certain things said on here.

[Saiga]

So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently.

So why do you keep ignoring all the horrible things Vic's defenders have done? You've never spoken out against the doxxing or sharing of children's images.

You've also ignored those that have been in this very thread, being polite and sharing information to support the allegations against Vic.

This doesn't come across as genuine at all.

That only just came out. And of course it’s bad but it’s been a one time occurance. And again, I haven’t read the past pages in a long time. I only remember bits and pieces of certain things said on here.

The ANN article that used a picture without someone's permission was also a one-time thing (that has since been cleared up), but you've brought it up several times and focused on that much more.

I'm not seeing any consistency.

[Mooreish]

So why do you keep ignoring all the horrible things Vic's defenders have done? You've never spoken out against the doxxing or sharing of children's images.

You've also ignored those that have been in this very thread, being polite and sharing information to support the allegations against Vic.

This doesn't come across as genuine at all.

That only just came out. And of course it’s bad but it’s been a one time occurance. And again, I haven’t read the past pages in a long time. I only remember bits and pieces of certain things said on here.

The ANN article that used a picture without someone's permission was also a one-time thing (that has since been cleared up), but you've brought it up several times and focused on that much more.

I'm not seeing any consistency.

If I have then I apologize for such. But still. It doesn’t excuse labeling on either side.

[kemuri07]

Yes. Yes it does.

Again, you are not entitled to receive the benefit of the doubt from anyone in this thread.

Either drop this argument entirely or do some much needed research on the topic of sexual harassment. Because the more you continue down this path, the more we all feel justified for calling you out on your foolishness.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I just want reason to believe the other side. And they have offered nothing but insults to the other side and just listen and believe. I refuse to just believe without having legitimate reasoning to believe said thing.

READ

THE FUCKING

THREAD.

You know exactly what you're doing here. You don't want to believe the victims and their supporters. You have been given dozens of benefits of the doubt, you have had dozens of chances to research people's experiences in this thread, on twitter, in the ANN and Gizmodo articles and the comments on those articles. Photos on twitter and those same articles, apologies and admissions from the man himself, the disproportionate amount of people on your side justifying and saying his behavior is true and is his right!

You have nobody to fucking blame but yourself if you continue to idiotically follow this train of self-flagellating conspiracy theorists without paying attention to the context of the world, how false accusations happen, how often and to whom they happen, who commits them, how society views sexual assault and harassment, what it does to excuse people like Vic, and about a billion other cases like this, with as much obvious and clear evidence. You've chosen to follow a fabricated narrative of theoretical anti-Vic conspiracy by willfully ignoring human nature itself.

And yeah! I have no sympathy for that! You've done nothing but deny, deflect and minimize! You have only made yourself look less deserving of any respect on a normal level, and then have the gall to paint yourselves as the rEeEeEeEeL victims! Nobody is fucking falling for it. Your only defense is "I'm not like those guys", but your only action has been directly allying yourself with them.

This is another reason I have trouble believing this stuff. The attitude the people have with it. Whenever I see a kickvicer, most of the time, they’re using insults or have an arrogant attitude with their claims. Also those people usually have done worse things. See dc Douglas and Neil Kaplan. Sometimes those people end up screwing themselves over by saying stupid **i* without thinking. See Amanda Winn lee Jamie marchi Monica rial Jamie McGonnigal and Samantha inoue hart. I have not found any istandwithvicers besides a rare few to have done anything but show evidence disproving certain claims put out by kickvic and they have also been polite unlike most kickvicers. The most well behaved out of everyone in istandwithvic so far has actually be the accused Vic Mignogna himself. Now you could say a silent man is a guilty man all you want, but this is how everyone should be behaving right now. Not saying anything and bide their time for the right time for action, like Johnny depp did. So maybe if everyone were more calm and less defensive about and aggressive about things and acted professional in this situation maybe I would see kickvic differently. And you could say Vic should’ve acted professionally in these supposed situations that supposedly happen. And if they did supposedly happen, I would agree.but for now I’ll just wait for this all to end. It’s just tearing the anime community apart right now. The anime community is gonna change for the worst after all of this is said and done.

While I agree with you in a very general sense, Mooreish, that manners are a virtue, that rudeness can backfire even if the rude statements are accurate, and that I personally wouldn't have phrased things the way others have...

...There's a point to be had in what has been said: this thread does contain evidence. It contains links to evidence, articles, and interviews. So yes, there's been a fair deal of name-calling, some of it immature and some of it fueled by an understandable disgust towards sexual assault...but that said, I absolutely would concur with the suggestion of reading this thread rather than skimming it for the most hyperbolic language.

As it relates to the sentence in your post that I put in bold, Vic himself has admitted to several of the things he has been accused of. Not all, of course, and the things he has admitted to are toned-down versions of what others have accused him of, but the fact remains, he has admitted to acting unprofessionally in several situations. I would point to this Gizmodo article--an article that, it may bear mentioning, was put forth earlier in this thread--as a prime example. Yes, it contains stories from alleged victims, but it also contains statements from Mignogna himself in which he openly admits to acting in a sexual manner towards other female industry professionals. While he was engaged.

The court of law and the court of public opinion have two different sets of standards. Both "courts" have been known to get it wrong at times. If, as a member of the court of public opinion, you've reached the conclusion that Vic is innocent of any wrongdoing, then you absolutely have that right. That said, I think you'd get a far less hostile reaction from your co-jurors if you took the time to understand the entirety of the situation by reading all that has been presented, which your posts suggest you haven't.

[Shaddy]

The playing field is not level. Kickvic and Stan4Vic are not equal.

KickVic has evidence of his inappropriate behavior, and managed to have him held accountable for this behavior.

Stan4Vic was founded on ignoring the evidence against Vic, blaming the victims and calling every single one of the con staff, other actors & actresses and hundreds of random fans liars after decades of accusations and con staff and Funi workers alike referring to his behavior as an "open secret".

This "oh but they were meeean to me" bullshit doesn't matter. Besides the fact that far, far, far more harassment, lying and insults have come from the stan4vic side than anything kickvic put out (compare Rial and Mignogna's twitter replies if you don't believe me), any insults coming at the Stan4Vic crowd are inherently in better faith. Because they're not built on a foundation of ignoring reality and believing any one of the total hundreds claiming to have been made uncomfortable by his behavior is just lying for attention. This is the "paradox of tolerance" preached by neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

If all you care about is people calling you stupid for supporting Vic, then just stop supporting him and surely things should change.

If what you care about is the truth, then pay attention to the evidence and stop doing the stupid thing and supporting Vic.

[Bryesque]

Hard to believe that people who've explained simple concepts to you repeatedly aren't super-duper friendly about it when you hit them with the goldfish routine over and over and over.

You can believe what you want to believe. But when people have consistently answered your questions, explained the situation, provided evidence, and backed up their claims, and you keep claiming that's not the case and asking the same questions they've already answered, they're going to take your comments in bad faith. Because that's very much a tactic to frustrate and exhaust people while avoiding having to actually discuss or learn anything.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Out of morbid curiosity I checked out some Youtube videos relating to the subject. Most of the Vic defenders seem to still be saying that all of the accusations are false.

If it was just one or two people making them, that could be a reasonable stance to take, but making the claim now qualifies as a very implausible conspiracy theory.