Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

People are taking Vados, Whis and Goku's statement out of context. Yes, they said Hit did not power up WHEN HE TRIED to level up transforming like Saiyans do. Hit confirms this as well as Vados. He didn't power up when he screamed and flared his aura up. HOWEVER , Hit DID power up when he just simply improved himself. Without screaming and yelling. Goku confirms this when he says Hit's attack strength got him real good after powering up.

You guys are mixing two scenarios together that are different.

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

[Miracles]

People are taking Vados, Whis and Goku's statement out of context. Yes, they said Hit did not power up WHEN HE TRIED to level up transforming like Saiyans do. Hit confirms this as well as Vados. He didn't power up when he screamed and flared his aura up. HOWEVER , Hit DID power up when he just simply improved himself. Without screaming and yelling. Goku confirms this when he says Hit's attack strength got him real good after powering up.

You guys are mixing two scenarios together that are different.

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

[Grand Marshal 1]

People are taking Vados, Whis and Goku's statement out of context. Yes, they said Hit did not power up WHEN HE TRIED to level up transforming like Saiyans do. Hit confirms this as well as Vados. He didn't power up when he screamed and flared his aura up. HOWEVER , Hit DID power up when he just simply improved himself. Without screaming and yelling. Goku confirms this when he says Hit's attack strength got him real good after powering up.

You guys are mixing two scenarios together that are different.

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

I will have to disagree:

*Hit powers-up*
Goku: "He didn't power-up at all!"
Everyone sees Hit's improved skills (note that he is fighting the very same way he did against Blue Goku, prior to the "power-up" sequence)
Vegeta: "That screaming earlier was a sign of powering-up, after all"
Whis: "No"
Vados: "His form is still the same as before" (of course everyone can see that Hit didn't transform, so Vados is also referring to his state of being, meaning that he didn't get stronger) and she continues "Hit simply tried to immitate the way Goku-san transforms"

Piccolo also states: "Hit improved in such a short amount of time!"
Hit to Goku: "I was able to improve because of you..."

Note that Hit was able to intially place Goku down, because the latter did not have his guard up, could not predict the enemy movements for 0.5 seconds in the future and Hit always goes for the vital points. Don't start telling me that Goku couldn't be brought down by that. The almighty Blue Goku was pinned down by a laser that he could reflect and could have avoided while still having his guard up, so Hit is even deadlier in this case, pushing Goku to his limits.

Hit later points out that this is a battle of speed "...you will try to get used to my attacks which are 0.2 seconds faster..." (This backs up the argument that Goku was using Blue and then KK only for the speed increase and yes there was a strength increase too, however he did not resort to that as he stated upon going Blue against Hit for the first time: "Let us see if you can kee up with my speed now"

Hit: "I am still improving" (After pummeling Goku with his Time skip)

Improvement is not a synonym of power. Hit improves his techniques, his killing methods and his abilities. He sharpens his instincts and makes his attacks far more deadlier by prolonging their attack sequence on the enemy, while also going for his vitals and at the same time performing them with greater efficiency for an overall better execution, which may seem like a power increase, but in actuality not being one.

Definition of the word improvement by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of improvement: the act or process of improving.
Definition of improve: (intransitive verb) to advance or make progress in what is desirable

(In this case Hit's Time skip, an ability).

If all this official statements aren't enough to make you understand that Hit never got stronger in that fight, then I don't know whtt else to say. Perhaps I will be yet again the guy who will get a response of the likes: "you are using headcanon and you are ignorant of factual evidence that suggest otherwise..."

[Miracles]

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

I will have to disagree:

*Hit powers-up*
Goku: "He didn't power-up at all!"
Everyone sees Hit's improved skills (note that he is fighting the very same way he did against Blue Goku, prior to the "power-up" sequence)
Vegeta: "That screaming earlier was a sign of powering-up, after all"
Whis: "No"
Vados: "His form is still the same as before" (of course everyone can see that Hit didn't transform, so Vados is also referring to his state of being, meaning that he didn't get stronger) and she continues "Hit simply tried to immitate the way Goku-san transforms"

Piccolo also states: "Hit improved in such a short amount of time!"
Hit to Goku: "I was able to improve because of you..."

Note that Hit was able to intially place Goku down, because the latter did not have his guard up, could not predict the enemy movements for 0.5 seconds in the future and Hit always goes for the vital points. Don't start telling me that Goku couldn't be brought down by that. The almighty Blue Goku was pinned down by a laser that he could reflect and could have avoided while still having his guard up, so Hit is even deadlier in this case, pushing Goku to his limits.

Hit later points out that this is a battle of speed "...you will try to get used to my attacks which are 0.2 seconds faster..." (This backs up the argument that Goku was using Blue and then KK only for the speed increase and yes there was a strength increase too, however he did not resort to that as he stated upon going Blue against Hit for the first time: "Let us see if you can kee up with my speed now"

Hit: "I am still improving" (After pummeling Goku with his Time skip)

Improvement is not a synonym of power. Hit improves his techniques, his killing methods and his abilities. He sharpens his instincts and makes his attacks far more deadlier by prolonging their attack sequence on the enemy, while also going for his vitals and at the same time performing them with greater efficiency for an overall better execution, which may seem like a power increase, but in actuality not being one.

Definition of the word improvement by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of improvement: the act or process of improving.
Definition of improve: (intransitive verb) to advance or make progress in what is desirable

(In this case Hit's Time skip, an ability).

If all this official statements aren't enough to make you understand that Hit never got stronger in that fight, then I don't know whtt else to say. Perhaps I will be yet again the guy who will get a response of the likes: "you are using headcanon and you are ignorant of factual evidence that suggest otherwise..."

You didn't use all the statements. You missed two statements where Hit himself stated he tried to power up by transforming like Saiyans but couldn't and could only get stronger one way [Improvement]. Then Goku confirming what Hit stated when Hit improved himself, saying he actually powered up his attack strength too.

You are choosing certain texts out of it's context to fit your desire.

[CJStriker_CBR]

3. No that's still your assumption from that scene. I know for a fact that it's not what people see because at the time people actually did think Ribrianne was about as strong as Android 17. Nobody at the time was mentioning the things that you're mentioning.

It was only after when Ribrianne fought other characters and her level was determined were people able to say that Android 17 was much stronger but not at the time.

I know that Android 17 is vastly more powerful than Ribrianne if that's what you're getting confused over.

3. Nobody in the series ever said or thought Ribrianne and A17 were evenly strong, that's just made up BS.

3. In the series no because they aren't. I'm saying that the people here, on this forum thought that way at first. You said it's all obvious but that is not what people took the scene as. It was only later did people realise that Ribrianne wasn't as strong as originally thought to be.

I have been finding this Back and Forth Debat very interesting to read, but I think it is missing out on critical factors in what happen with Ribrianne's power scaling and why it was so different at the later part of the story. This could mostly be explained in the writing and Toei's Priories at a given time.

At the time of the Debut Fight between Ribrianne against SSJ-1 Vegeta and 17 back in episodes 102-103 their was a Very Good bases by both what we saw and what we heard by characters themselves that Ribrianne's Strength just at her base and enraged levels was a force to be meet with and we can see that displayed in those fights early on. Major moments like that of Vegeta Never backing out of SSJ-1 form and Ribrianne just having fun with the SSJ-1 fight while Vegeta backing-it-up by Verbal Support of Ribrianne's Strength showed that Toei seemed Serious about how Strong Ribrianne's Strength was just at base form at that point in the story and what they where going for with her.

Spoiler:

Simliar is Played out with the Fight with 17 in episode 103 with an enraged Ribrianne seemly to easlly be seen as more Serious in the battle then before with Vegeta and pushing harder back. 17 starts off playful and acting the role of a Villain but by both his face, Deminer and ultimately what he says Ribrianne is proving again at this part of the story that she is a Force with Vast wells of power that is being underestimate by her opponents. 17 also backs impressiveness as well Verbally as well.

Spoiler:

17 is never seen backing down or slowing down, showing the fight between the 2 at this time was Very Serious and was an ever personal and increasing level, even showing that Ribrianne with 1 Punch could shater 17's Force Bubble, showing her Strength was a Major Force.

Now I have heard the theory of 17 and Vegeta where likely Holding back by the events that would later happen, but their is no Visual Showing or anything Verbally Said by both Vegeta and 17 in these episodes or later on to confirm it. The likely explanation by what I would say the writers where going for was that Ribrianne was a Serious Fighter at this time was starting to show the beginning abilities to Rival some of Universe 7's best. Again this is putting it at that context of the time in episodes 102-103 that that is what Toei was going for story wise and the flow of the story and their is all I said just now to back that up.

What happens later and I think is most critical in Episodes 107-109, 111 and Ultimately episode 117 is both a case is sloppy writing and a change in story priorities.

The Story Never gives a Good or Really any Explanation(that Point is most critical), on why in episodes 107-109 that only the Base form of Goku was mostly used and I can Truly say at the time with others I discussed this with on this Forum at the time it left us confused and wondering what was going on since this did not flow at all with the events of episodes 102-103.

Now,, Indeed the Verbal Support of Ribrianne's Strength by Goku and other characters in episode 108 is still gave great Support to Ribrianne's Strength like it did before, but the Visual's never gave the proper respect to what was verbally being said.

Spoiler:

This started the downing of Ribrianne's powers that is Never given any proper explanation or reasoning outside of Theories.

Episodes 102-103 and then Later on after episodes 108 are completely different in power scaling Story-Telling all together with how they are shown and written sadly for Ribrianne.

Their is only theory to go by in this and Honestly by what it seems, the reasoning likely be found in the Writing Style and what become more Seemingly the stories priorities.

The shows priorities going forward become more of a showcasing of Goku's New UI Journey and finding this new Strength while overcoming obsticals in gaining this power. Combined this with already known bad communications between writers between episodes on staying constant in story flow between episodes, it is like Ribrianne became a Less Prioritized character that got Nerfed with bad storytelling to explain why and priorities in other story elements that where more important, this is likely in Theory why she was being pushed more to the side and in power scaling.

This is just a theory, by how the story was flowing and what was being presented to us as the important Priority story elements more and more, that being the UI Journey, leads to the most likely explanations.

Still Ribrianne got what was more important later, that of a character arc, growth and a showing of both Caring and Rallying of her Universe in Episodes 117-the Golden Episode 118, so it worked out Good for her character Development and Persona wise.

So Indeed I say Ribrianne's Character was Meant to be Much stronger with how she Grandly started out, but with not in canon story given reasoning to the later nerfing, got undercuted in power likely cause of loss writing standardizes and most likely more pressing story prioritizes along with what we know now that seems to be the case, that of an ever increasing need to end Super sooner with less episodes by the end.

I still Greatly Believe Toei Cares Greatly and Likes Ribrianne with her Cameo in the Broly Movie being stated as an Impressive Fighter in the ToP and her being Used in Gaming like Dokken Battle and Legends more, ending up being on of the strongest fighters in those games. It just seems at the time of her later episodes in the ToP arc Toei had to hold her back with what they originally where going for at the start.

[ZombieVito]

People are taking Vados, Whis and Goku's statement out of context. Yes, they said Hit did not power up WHEN HE TRIED to level up transforming like Saiyans do. Hit confirms this as well as Vados. He didn't power up when he screamed and flared his aura up. HOWEVER , Hit DID power up when he just simply improved himself. Without screaming and yelling. Goku confirms this when he says Hit's attack strength got him real good after powering up.

You guys are mixing two scenarios together that are different.

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

He wasn't able to do that to Goku because the latter was predicting the former's attacks. It had nothing to do with power.

Hit was able to put Goku on the floor later because he improved his Time Skip so Goku couldn't put up a guard up. He didn't get stronger at all.

[PFM18]

3. No that's still your assumption from that scene. I know for a fact that it's not what people see because at the time people actually did think Ribrianne was about as strong as Android 17. Nobody at the time was mentioning the things that you're mentioning.

It was only after when Ribrianne fought other characters and her level was determined were people able to say that Android 17 was much stronger but not at the time.

I know that Android 17 is vastly more powerful than Ribrianne if that's what you're getting confused over.

3. Nobody in the series ever said or thought Ribrianne and A17 were evenly strong, that's just made up BS.

3. In the series no because they aren't. I'm saying that the people here, on this forum thought that way at first. You said it's all obvious but that is not what people took the scene as. It was only later did people realise that Ribrianne wasn't as strong as originally thought to be.

I have been finding this Back and Forth Debat very interesting to read, but I think it is missing out on critical factors in what happen with Ribrianne's power scaling and why it was so different at the later part of the story. This could mostly be explained in the writing and Toei's Priories at a given time.

At the time of the Debut Fight between Ribrianne against SSJ-1 Vegeta and 17 back in episodes 102-103 their was a Very Good bases by both what we saw and what we heard by characters themselves that Ribrianne's Strength just at her base and enraged levels was a force to be meet with and we can see that displayed in those fights early on. Major moments like that of Vegeta Never backing out of SSJ-1 form and Ribrianne just having fun with the SSJ-1 fight while Vegeta backing-it-up by Verbal Support of Ribrianne's Strength showed that Toei seemed Serious about how Strong Ribrianne's Strength was just at base form at that point in the story and what they where going for with her.

Spoiler:

Simliar is Played out with the Fight with 17 in episode 103 with an enraged Ribrianne seemly to easlly be seen as more Serious in the battle then before with Vegeta and pushing harder back. 17 starts off playful and acting the role of a Villain but by both his face, Deminer and ultimately what he says Ribrianne is proving again at this part of the story that she is a Force with Vast wells of power that is being underestimate by her opponents. 17 also backs impressiveness as well Verbally as well.

Spoiler:

17 is never seen backing down or slowing down, showing the fight between the 2 at this time was Very Serious and was an ever personal and increasing level, even showing that Ribrianne with 1 Punch could shater 17's Force Bubble, showing her Strength was a Major Force.

Now I have heard the theory of 17 and Vegeta where likely Holding back by the events that would later happen, but their is no Visual Showing or anything Verbally Said by both Vegeta and 17 in these episodes or later on to confirm it. The likely explanation by what I would say the writers where going for was that Ribrianne was a Serious Fighter at this time was starting to show the beginning abilities to Rival some of Universe 7's best. Again this is putting it at that context of the time in episodes 102-103 that that is what Toei was going for story wise and the flow of the story and their is all I said just now to back that up.

What happens later and I think is most critical in Episodes 107-109, 111 and Ultimately episode 117 is both a case is sloppy writing and a change in story priorities.

The Story Never gives a Good or Really any Explanation(that Point is most critical), on why in episodes 107-109 that only the Base form of Goku was mostly used and I can Truly say at the time with others I discussed this with on this Forum at the time it left us confused and wondering what was going on since this did not flow at all with the events of episodes 102-103.

Now,, Indeed the Verbal Support of Ribrianne's Strength by Goku and other characters in episode 108 is still gave great Support to Ribrianne's Strength like it did before, but the Visual's never gave the proper respect to what was verbally being said.

Spoiler:

This started the downing of Ribrianne's powers that is Never given any proper explanation or reasoning outside of Theories.

Episodes 102-103 and then Later on after episodes 108 are completely different in power scaling Story-Telling all together with how they are shown and written sadly for Ribrianne.

Their is only theory to go by in this and Honestly by what it seems, the reasoning likely be found in the Writing Style and what become more Seemingly the stories priorities.

The shows priorities going forward become more of a showcasing of Goku's New UI Journey and finding this new Strength while overcoming obsticals in gaining this power. Combined this with already known bad communications between writers between episodes on staying constant in story flow between episodes, it is like Ribrianne became a Less Prioritized character that got Nerfed with bad storytelling to explain why and priorities in other story elements that where more important, this is likely in Theory why she was being pushed more to the side and in power scaling.

This is just a theory, by how the story was flowing and what was being presented to us as the important Priority story elements more and more, that being the UI Journey, leads to the most likely explanations.

Still Ribrianne got what was more important later, that of a character arc, growth and a showing of both Caring and Rallying of her Universe in Episodes 117-the Golden Episode 118, so it worked out Good for her character Development and Persona wise.

So Indeed I say Ribrianne's Character was Meant to be Much stronger with how she Grandly started out, but with not in canon story given reasoning to the later nerfing, got undercuted in power likely cause of loss writing standardizes and most likely more pressing story prioritizes along with what we know now that seems to be the case, that of an ever increasing need to end Super sooner with less episodes by the end.

I still Greatly Believe Toei Cares Greatly and Likes Ribrianne with her Cameo in the Broly Movie being stated as an Impressive Fighter in the ToP and her being Used in Gaming like Dokken Battle and Legends more, ending up being on of the strongest fighters in those games. It just seems at the time of her later episodes in the ToP arc Toei had to hold her back with what they originally where going for at the start.

So do you like, just materialize whenever somebody mentions Ribrianne?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

I will have to disagree:

*Hit powers-up*
Goku: "He didn't power-up at all!"
Everyone sees Hit's improved skills (note that he is fighting the very same way he did against Blue Goku, prior to the "power-up" sequence)
Vegeta: "That screaming earlier was a sign of powering-up, after all"
Whis: "No"
Vados: "His form is still the same as before" (of course everyone can see that Hit didn't transform, so Vados is also referring to his state of being, meaning that he didn't get stronger) and she continues "Hit simply tried to immitate the way Goku-san transforms"

Piccolo also states: "Hit improved in such a short amount of time!"
Hit to Goku: "I was able to improve because of you..."

Note that Hit was able to intially place Goku down, because the latter did not have his guard up, could not predict the enemy movements for 0.5 seconds in the future and Hit always goes for the vital points. Don't start telling me that Goku couldn't be brought down by that. The almighty Blue Goku was pinned down by a laser that he could reflect and could have avoided while still having his guard up, so Hit is even deadlier in this case, pushing Goku to his limits.

Hit later points out that this is a battle of speed "...you will try to get used to my attacks which are 0.2 seconds faster..." (This backs up the argument that Goku was using Blue and then KK only for the speed increase and yes there was a strength increase too, however he did not resort to that as he stated upon going Blue against Hit for the first time: "Let us see if you can kee up with my speed now"

Hit: "I am still improving" (After pummeling Goku with his Time skip)

Improvement is not a synonym of power. Hit improves his techniques, his killing methods and his abilities. He sharpens his instincts and makes his attacks far more deadlier by prolonging their attack sequence on the enemy, while also going for his vitals and at the same time performing them with greater efficiency for an overall better execution, which may seem like a power increase, but in actuality not being one.

Definition of the word improvement by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of improvement: the act or process of improving.
Definition of improve: (intransitive verb) to advance or make progress in what is desirable

(In this case Hit's Time skip, an ability).

If all this official statements aren't enough to make you understand that Hit never got stronger in that fight, then I don't know whtt else to say. Perhaps I will be yet again the guy who will get a response of the likes: "you are using headcanon and you are ignorant of factual evidence that suggest otherwise..."

You didn't use all the statements. You missed two statements where Hit himself stated he tried to power up by transforming like Saiyans but couldn't and could only get stronger one way [Improvement]. Then Goku confirming what Hit stated when Hit improved himself, saying he actually powered up his attack strength too.

You are choosing certain texts out of it's context to fit your desire.

Yeah, Hit did try to get stronger. Indee. I actually missed that part. However, the two statements made by Hit really don't offer a new perspective in his power-up. He said that he tried to transform, he tried to become more powerful, just like the Saiyans but could not. Improvement is his only way achieveing that. Of course this is a game of words, so when Hit states "...to become stronger" it is possible that he only refers to becoming better with his abilities, which would subsequently make him look stronger, while not being. It isn't a question of power that is the thing. Goku had to predict Hit's movements, and Blue's speed helped him along with it's defense as a form to work it out much better. For 0.5 seconds, while Hit was still improving, it was a futile attempt to delay the inevitable. Hit did improve after taking on the attack from KK×10.

Hit pretty much explains himself that he received nothing from that power-up. Only that he improved. He used that for show, for a test and to cover up for his improvement. To make it seem like he was imrpoving against someone in this way. Vegeta was fooled twice by Hit. The first time he thought that Hit's powe-up increased his strentgh, with Whis debunking him and the second when he thought that Hit was powering-up like the Saiyans in the middle of the fight. He commented on how Hit improved faster than the two of them (Goku and Vegeta). Nonetheless, we have seen countless times Saiyans simply improving as well. In the ToP, the fight between SSJ2 Goku with Caulifla and Kale wasn't a fight after which Goku would get astronomically stronger. No, Whis states that Goku is performing better and better as time passes, due to him sharpening his instincts and reflexes, which help him in a much better fighting performance.

Last but not least, this discussion should be taken as evidence of why Grade 4 and Grade 1 SSJs have the same multiplier, as all these fighting traits along with the removal of a form's weaknesses make someone a much superior fighter than his past self, without getting more powerful, yet we should take into account that after a year of training in the chamber, Goku and Gohan did raise their Base form powers one way or another. I went off topic, but I guess I had to mention this.

[Miracles]

An attack can be powered up without having a bigger strength power.

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

He wasn't able to do that to Goku because the latter was predicting the former's attacks. It had nothing to do with power.

Hit was able to put Goku on the floor later because he improved his Time Skip so Goku couldn't put up a guard up. He didn't get stronger at all.

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

I will have to disagree:

*Hit powers-up*
Goku: "He didn't power-up at all!"
Everyone sees Hit's improved skills (note that he is fighting the very same way he did against Blue Goku, prior to the "power-up" sequence)
Vegeta: "That screaming earlier was a sign of powering-up, after all"
Whis: "No"
Vados: "His form is still the same as before" (of course everyone can see that Hit didn't transform, so Vados is also referring to his state of being, meaning that he didn't get stronger) and she continues "Hit simply tried to immitate the way Goku-san transforms"

Piccolo also states: "Hit improved in such a short amount of time!"
Hit to Goku: "I was able to improve because of you..."

Note that Hit was able to intially place Goku down, because the latter did not have his guard up, could not predict the enemy movements for 0.5 seconds in the future and Hit always goes for the vital points. Don't start telling me that Goku couldn't be brought down by that. The almighty Blue Goku was pinned down by a laser that he could reflect and could have avoided while still having his guard up, so Hit is even deadlier in this case, pushing Goku to his limits.

Hit later points out that this is a battle of speed "...you will try to get used to my attacks which are 0.2 seconds faster..." (This backs up the argument that Goku was using Blue and then KK only for the speed increase and yes there was a strength increase too, however he did not resort to that as he stated upon going Blue against Hit for the first time: "Let us see if you can kee up with my speed now"

Hit: "I am still improving" (After pummeling Goku with his Time skip)

Improvement is not a synonym of power. Hit improves his techniques, his killing methods and his abilities. He sharpens his instincts and makes his attacks far more deadlier by prolonging their attack sequence on the enemy, while also going for his vitals and at the same time performing them with greater efficiency for an overall better execution, which may seem like a power increase, but in actuality not being one.

Definition of the word improvement by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

(In this case Hit's Time skip, an ability).

If all this official statements aren't enough to make you understand that Hit never got stronger in that fight, then I don't know whtt else to say. Perhaps I will be yet again the guy who will get a response of the likes: "you are using headcanon and you are ignorant of factual evidence that suggest otherwise..."

You didn't use all the statements. You missed two statements where Hit himself stated he tried to power up by transforming like Saiyans but couldn't and could only get stronger one way [Improvement]. Then Goku confirming what Hit stated when Hit improved himself, saying he actually powered up his attack strength too.

You are choosing certain texts out of it's context to fit your desire.

Yeah, Hit did try to get stronger. Indee. I actually missed that part. However, the two statements made by Hit really don't offer a new perspective in his power-up. He said that he tried to transform, he tried to become more powerful, just like the Saiyans but could not. Improvement is his only way achieveing that. Of course this is a game of words, so when Hit states "...to become stronger" it is possible that he only refers to becoming better with his abilities, which would subsequently make him look stronger, while not being. It isn't a question of power that is the thing. Goku had to predict Hit's movements, and Blue's speed helped him along with it's defense as a form to work it out much better. For 0.5 seconds, while Hit was still improving, it was a futile attempt to delay the inevitable. Hit did improve after taking on the attack from KK×10.

Hit pretty much explains himself that he received nothing from that power-up. Only that he improved. He used that for show, for a test and to cover up for his improvement. To make it seem like he was imrpoving against someone in this way. Vegeta was fooled twice by Hit. The first time he thought that Hit's powe-up increased his strentgh, with Whis debunking him and the second when he thought that Hit was powering-up like the Saiyans in the middle of the fight. He commented on how Hit improved faster than the two of them (Goku and Vegeta). Nonetheless, we have seen countless times Saiyans simply improving as well. In the ToP, the fight between SSJ2 Goku with Caulifla and Kale wasn't a fight after which Goku would get astronomically stronger. No, Whis states that Goku is performing better and better as time passes, due to him sharpening his instincts and reflexes, which help him in a much better fighting performance.

Last but not least, this discussion should be taken as evidence of why Grade 4 and Grade 1 SSJs have the same multiplier, as all these fighting traits along with the removal of a form's weaknesses make someone a much superior fighter than his past self, without getting more powerful, yet we should take into account that after a year of training in the chamber, Goku and Gohan did raise their Base form powers one way or another. I went off topic, but I guess I had to mention this.

You also missed Goku's statement where he said Hit being able to damage him was due to his strength. That's separate from Time skip.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

He wasn't able to do that to Goku because the latter was predicting the former's attacks. It had nothing to do with power.

Hit was able to put Goku on the floor later because he improved his Time Skip so Goku couldn't put up a guard up. He didn't get stronger at all.

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

You didn't use all the statements. You missed two statements where Hit himself stated he tried to power up by transforming like Saiyans but couldn't and could only get stronger one way [Improvement]. Then Goku confirming what Hit stated when Hit improved himself, saying he actually powered up his attack strength too.

You are choosing certain texts out of it's context to fit your desire.

Yeah, Hit did try to get stronger. Indee. I actually missed that part. However, the two statements made by Hit really don't offer a new perspective in his power-up. He said that he tried to transform, he tried to become more powerful, just like the Saiyans but could not. Improvement is his only way achieveing that. Of course this is a game of words, so when Hit states "...to become stronger" it is possible that he only refers to becoming better with his abilities, which would subsequently make him look stronger, while not being. It isn't a question of power that is the thing. Goku had to predict Hit's movements, and Blue's speed helped him along with it's defense as a form to work it out much better. For 0.5 seconds, while Hit was still improving, it was a futile attempt to delay the inevitable. Hit did improve after taking on the attack from KK×10.

Hit pretty much explains himself that he received nothing from that power-up. Only that he improved. He used that for show, for a test and to cover up for his improvement. To make it seem like he was imrpoving against someone in this way. Vegeta was fooled twice by Hit. The first time he thought that Hit's powe-up increased his strentgh, with Whis debunking him and the second when he thought that Hit was powering-up like the Saiyans in the middle of the fight. He commented on how Hit improved faster than the two of them (Goku and Vegeta). Nonetheless, we have seen countless times Saiyans simply improving as well. In the ToP, the fight between SSJ2 Goku with Caulifla and Kale wasn't a fight after which Goku would get astronomically stronger. No, Whis states that Goku is performing better and better as time passes, due to him sharpening his instincts and reflexes, which help him in a much better fighting performance.

Last but not least, this discussion should be taken as evidence of why Grade 4 and Grade 1 SSJs have the same multiplier, as all these fighting traits along with the removal of a form's weaknesses make someone a much superior fighter than his past self, without getting more powerful, yet we should take into account that after a year of training in the chamber, Goku and Gohan did raise their Base form powers one way or another. I went off topic, but I guess I had to mention this.

You also missed Goku's statement where he said Hit being able to damage him was due to his strength. That's separate from Time skip.

Well, I in particular will not change my opinion on this. I suggest we start a new conversation in order to change the subject and to give the opportunity to others to join the discussion. We made our points clear, so I guess it is a matter of perspective.

Any suggestions for a new discussion?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

BASE FORMS!

But seriously, where the heck do we put them now? So far, it seems like the Broly movie is solidly the baseline for both manga and anime continuities, so it should serve as identical in both version of events.

Base Broly was very much equal to base Goku and Vegeta in raw power, with the latter needing to go Super Saiyan to gain an upperhand in the end. How strong do we have these 3, before Broly amped up to surpass Super Saiyan?

Personally, I feel like putting them at the level of Majin Buu would be best, though no comparisons are made to other characters in the actual film to gauge it fully.

[Grand Marshal 1]

BASE FORMS!

But seriously, where the heck do we put them now? So far, it seems like the Broly movie is solidly the baseline for both manga and anime continuities, so it should serve as identical in both version of events.

Base Broly was very much equal to base Goku and Vegeta in raw power, with the latter needing to go Super Saiyan to gain an upperhand in the end. How strong do we have these 3, before Broly amped up to surpass Super Saiyan?

Personally, I feel like putting them at the level of Majin Buu would be best, though no comparisons are made to other characters in the actual film to gauge it fully.

You mean current Majin Buu? I guess that this is a possibility. Why not? Compared to each other I think that Broly, prior powering-up for the first time against Base Vegeta, he was weaker or on par in Base, but Vegeta was far more experienced. Before going God, I place Base Broly between SSJ and SSJ2 levels, around ×80 Base. After going God, Broly powered up more and I place him around low SSJ3 level, 50% of the form's power actually.

Original Base Broly would be probably at Piccolo level, now that I think of it. Majin Buu sounds a bit too much. I mean, wouldn't Vegeta and Goku need SSJ to defeat Buu? He isn't a Base level character. I place him above Piccolo but below Gohan in his Ultimate form.

Before overpowering Super Vegeta (when fighting seriously) I think that it was then, when Broly reached Majin Buu in terms of power. Prior going Wrathful, he was probably somewhere near 50% of Gohan's Ultimate form.

I would love to see Broly have a sparring match with Gohan actually. I guess that the latter would be able to fight Broly in his Wrathful stage I and even push him back in Wrathful stage II, but that uis where it ends. Ultimate Gohan should perform as well as Super Saiyan God Goku at mid strength.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I dunno, I just feel like base Goku and Vegeta should be at the very least as strong as the strongest foe before god power came along.

I fall in the camp that believes base forms are incredibly strong now for the Saiyans being focused on, and nothing has really convinced me that there's been any significant retconning or quiet adjustment to the absurdly low levels people place them at.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I dunno, I just feel like base Goku and Vegeta should be at the very least as strong as the strongest foe before god power came along.

I fall in the camp that believes base forms are incredibly strong now for the Saiyans being focused on, and nothing has really convinced me that there's been any significant retconning or quiet adjustment to the absurdly low levels people place them at.

Can't say that I do not agree, it is just that some characters truly have the potential to reach them. Be mindful that we are talking about Base forms, so having a character slightly above the Saiyan's Base, while in THEIR maximum strentgth is still impressive. Buu in particular is simply a character who is still relevant in terms of power. Besides, should the Saiyans be absurdly strong, they wouldn't compete with all these beings from the ToP. I mean, pretty much every regular guy from the ToP, if they lived in U7 40 years ago, they would annihilate Freeza at 100% Final, the strongest being in the universe, at given time.

Ultimately, even if they are strong, the enemies will be stronger comparatevely to make up for the action, or else Goku and Vegeta would flick everyone around and where would the fun be at that? (Saitama is different lol).

[Hugo Boss]

Its common sense to assume that it does, because nothing says that it doesn't.

Nothing says Santa Klaus doesn’t exist. By this line of reasoning, it could be common sense to assume he exists. From a different perspective, it would be common sense that Santa Klaus doesn’t exist, because there is no proof that he does. Guess which perspective makes the most sense.

I’m not saying the logic behind SSBlue having a 50-fold boost in relation to SSGod is dumbfounded. It’s a fair assumption. But it doesn’t cross the line of an “educated guess”.

Nothing suggest that Hit only powered-up "metaphorically". That's just pure, baseless headcanon and denialism. (...) Pure nonsense. You like many other fans are overrating the importance of "skill" in DB (where literally every major fight is determined by raw power in one way or another, including Early DB). (...) This ignores the blatant fact that Goku himself stated that Hit got stronger after the U6 arc in their rematch.

I’m just presenting what the episode implies. Be open-minded. SS2 Caulifla vs. Base Goku is another example in which Goku’s skill made SS2 Caulifla look like a child. It was only after she adapted her skill level that Goku felt the need to raise his power. Whis explains this very well. “Strong” can mean much more than “brute force” or “powerlevels”.

[ruler9871]

Nothing says Santa Klaus doesn’t exist. By this line of reasoning, it could be common sense to assume he exists. From a different perspective, it would be common sense that Santa Klaus doesn’t exist, because there is no proof that he does. Guess which perspective makes the most sense.

I’m not saying the logic behind SSBlue having a 50-fold boost in relation to SSGod is dumbfounded. It’s a fair assumption. But it doesn’t cross the line of an “educated guess”.

This is a false analogy, because a lot says that Santa Clause (the myth, not Saint Nicholas the person) doesn't exist. You are making an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

I’m just presenting what the episode implies. Be open-minded. SS2 Caulifla vs. Base Goku is another example in which Goku’s skill made SS2 Caulifla look like a child. It was only after she adapted her skill level that Goku felt the need to raise his power. Whis explains this very well. “Strong” can mean much more than “brute force” or “powerlevels”.

This is another false analogy, because "strength" was never stated to be the reason why Base Goku was doing well against SSJ2 Caulifla in the first place, while it explicitly was with Hit.

[ruler9871]

You are not looking at this objectively. Without bias because you are so busy trying to be right instead of accepting the facts. The narration constantly/always claims Zamas can not be fought against because of his invincibility. It's you who keeps stating it's because of his strength BUT the story never stated Zamas was strong because of his raw ability. That's just your desire. Show me where Zamas was stated to be strong because of his physical power? I constantly showed you where the plot stated his immortality/invulnerability was the threat.

BTW, in the manga Zamas dodged Blue Goku for a bit too. Does that mean he is Blue level? NO. But according to you since he evaded Blue Goku that shows his speed is blue level. Even though the manga outright stated Trunks is stronger than him. Same with the anime, it's TOEI'S inconsistency where Zamasu at one point pokes/trades/dodges Blue Goku into the street their first battle. Then later he gets physically overpowered by SSJ Trunks in his fight when he ran his sword through him. Why are you ignoring this contradicting fact and acting as if it never happened, trying to override it with Zamas's momentary exchanges with Blue Goku? Then later Zamas couldn't even overpower a fatigue'd SSJ Trunks after planting Black into a mountain. It's you who is ignoring the whole scope of the situation and trying to parade certain parts of Zamas blue level tier as if that were going to erase the other low end feats.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is TOEI messed up. It's no different from having base Goku fighting evenly with Oozaru Broly who was pretty much above red Vegeta. Then later having Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta fight SSJ Broly evenly. You have to acknowledge TOEI's bad writing. We know for a fact that Zamas LOST/loses to SSJ Trunks in BOTH anime and manga but NEVER beats Blue Goku. You have to look at the facts OBJECTIVELY; instead of with your own headcanon. Zamas isn't blue tier in either medium.

1. You still have failed to give any proof that F.Zamasu was ever mean't to be only SSJ2 in the anime in the 1st place. Not a single line of dialogue nor any guide/source from Toei at all. You are the one that's in denial.

2. Since when the hell does immortality magically give you greater defensive skills aside from not dying? That's pure bullshit.

By your "logic", if Krillin ever gained immortality then he should then be able to block/parry punches from Jiren lol. That's exactly what your F.Zamasu arguments sound like.

I gave you what the story stated. The reasons for Zamas threat was his invulnerability. That's a fact. The story never stated his strength was blue level. That's another fact. Due to TOEI's inconsistency Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN. Since TOEI had him skirmishing with Blue Goku THEN PHYSICALLY GETTING HANDLED BY SSJ TRUNKS.

So I stayed with the plot being the only reasonable explanation. That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents. You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked falsehoods over and over again. "Immorality" has nothing to do with trading blows with others.

"Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN."

If its an unknown then you have zero basis to call F.Zamasu's feats inconsistent. Logic 101

"You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong."

That's exactly what you have been hypocritically doing this entire thread.

"That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents."

Completely ignores F.Zamasu beating up SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks again, as usual.

[Miracles]

1. You still have failed to give any proof that F.Zamasu was ever mean't to be only SSJ2 in the anime in the 1st place. Not a single line of dialogue nor any guide/source from Toei at all. You are the one that's in denial.

2. Since when the hell does immortality magically give you greater defensive skills aside from not dying? That's pure bullshit.

By your "logic", if Krillin ever gained immortality then he should then be able to block/parry punches from Jiren lol. That's exactly what your F.Zamasu arguments sound like.

I gave you what the story stated. The reasons for Zamas threat was his invulnerability. That's a fact. The story never stated his strength was blue level. That's another fact. Due to TOEI's inconsistency Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN. Since TOEI had him skirmishing with Blue Goku THEN PHYSICALLY GETTING HANDLED BY SSJ TRUNKS.

So I stayed with the plot being the only reasonable explanation. That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents. You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked falsehoods over and over again. "Immorality" has nothing to do with trading blows with others.

"Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN."

If its an unknown then you have zero basis to call F.Zamasu's feats inconsistent. Logic 101

"You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong."

That's exactly what you have been hypocritically doing this entire thread.

"That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents."

Completely ignores F.Zamasu beating up SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks again, as usual.

Future Zamas power being an unknown for the simple fact that it is inconsistent. You can't one moment trade with Blue Goku then get pwned by SSJ Trunks the next. This is facts, not headcanon like you are trying to push about Zamas being Blue level while you ignore the other showings.

[ruler9871]

I gave you what the story stated. The reasons for Zamas threat was his invulnerability. That's a fact. The story never stated his strength was blue level. That's another fact. Due to TOEI's inconsistency Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN. Since TOEI had him skirmishing with Blue Goku THEN PHYSICALLY GETTING HANDLED BY SSJ TRUNKS.

So I stayed with the plot being the only reasonable explanation. That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents. You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong.

Now you are just repeating the same debunked falsehoods over and over again. "Immorality" has nothing to do with trading blows with others.

"Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN."

If its an unknown then you have zero basis to call F.Zamasu's feats inconsistent. Logic 101

"You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong."

That's exactly what you have been hypocritically doing this entire thread.

"That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents."

Completely ignores F.Zamasu beating up SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks again, as usual.

Future Zamas power being an unknown for the simple fact that it is inconsistent. You can't one moment trade with Blue Goku then get pwned by SSJ Trunks the next. This is facts, not headcanon like you are trying to push about Zamas being Blue level while you ignore the other showings.

He was never truly beaten by SSJ2 Trunks in the 1st place, still ignoring the fact that Trunks was the one defeated and forced to retreat in the end, not Zamasu.

[Miracles]

Now you are just repeating the same debunked falsehoods over and over again. "Immorality" has nothing to do with trading blows with others.

"Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN."

If its an unknown then you have zero basis to call F.Zamasu's feats inconsistent. Logic 101

"You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong."

That's exactly what you have been hypocritically doing this entire thread.

"That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents."

Completely ignores F.Zamasu beating up SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks again, as usual.

Future Zamas power being an unknown for the simple fact that it is inconsistent. You can't one moment trade with Blue Goku then get pwned by SSJ Trunks the next. This is facts, not headcanon like you are trying to push about Zamas being Blue level while you ignore the other showings.

He was never truly beaten by SSJ2 Trunks in the 1st place, still ignoring the fact that Trunks was the one defeated and forced to retreat in the end, not Zamasu.

Of course Trunks didn't literally defeat Zamas. THANKS TO HIS IMMORTALITY. However, SSJ Trunks DID INDEED OVERPOWER ZAMAS in the fight. This was right after Zamas was done trading with Blue Goku. It's an inconsistency, therefore Zamas power is an unknown.