The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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theherodjl
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Sun May 12, 2019 4:52 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:58 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:54 pm
ahill1 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:40 pm
What's your placement for the base Saiyajins during the Boo saga?
IMHO the power level of the adults is around 6 million.
Are youyou even serious or are you trolling? 6 millions is fine in early android saga kek
The number is fine if the power of the Saiyans comes from an ever increasing, non-static SSJ figure.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Sun May 12, 2019 5:07 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:02 pm
Do you have any proof?
They had trained and they get zenkais, that's enough

Just explain how can vegeta go from being used to mop the floor with 18 to being possibly able to beat someone strong more or less like 2,5x c18 in the same form and I'll believe you

Lol
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 pm

So you have no proof. Well, ok then.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 12, 2019 6:14 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
But hey if you wanna use a guidebook and give Goku and Piccolo sub 60 IQs, go ahead I guess
The best rationalisation I can come up with is that guidebook uses a picture of base Gotenks when talking about his power
The quote can't work if it's base Gotenks since he would be already stronger than Vegeta by turning Super Saiyan.

The fact of the matter is that there's no a single concrete statement in the manga that says SS Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta/Boo/Goku/etc. It's all assumptions.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Desassina » Sun May 12, 2019 6:16 pm

In my opinion, fusion is only stronger than its fusees on a similar form, but powered up greatly that it's close to transformation. In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, base Goku began fighting an opponent that Super Saiyan God Vegeta could not defeat, which means that the latter had already wasted himself, while the former was still fresh before he felt the need to power up, akin to base Gogeta dodging Broly and switching to attack with SSJ. The difference is that their opponent was in his Wrathful state and then transformed, but that's why I said that base fusion was greatly powered up, close to its fusees' transformation. Base Gotenks, Vegetto and Gogeta never showed up from SSJ fusion after all, but they were always stronger than their fusees on a similar form.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Mon May 13, 2019 1:23 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 pm
So you have no proof. Well, ok then.
Vegeta that goes to be used to mop the floor by 18 to have the possibility to beat someone strong more than 2 times than 18 always In his ssj form is a proof, really
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Mon May 13, 2019 10:23 am

Lionel wrote:Goku's attempts at formality were spasmodic and questionable at best. At several different points throughout their conversation he was having to correct himself and reword his initial statements in a more deferential manner in keeping with the expectations King Kai was foisting on him.

Correcting his vocabulary and tone is a different matter from simply not talking.
Lionel wrote:Beerus and Whis were in the process of leaving when Goku came forward and made the request for Beerus to show him his power in a sparring match
As I said, Goku considered doing so a once in a lifetime task. Of course he wasn't going to let that get away.
Lione wrote:Acknowledging that he had become strong enough to no longer need Super Saiyan in order to take down Freeza wouldn't be any less jarring than the rest of Goku's words during that conversation.
No, but it also wasn't necessary in proving himself to Beerus with how Freeza has long since been old news. Goku usually speaks through actions, not words, and saying that his base self is above Freeza isn't going to give Beerus any indicator of his true power when he has no benchmark to estimate how strong his SSJ self will be before seeing it in person.
Lionel wrote:Next to that, for some odd reason Dabura never projected an aura when he fought in the manga. Auras are generally an indication of a fighter being earnest in their power emission. Maybe Dabura doesn't emit one like other ki users for some reason? His fight with Gohan would have likely shown a more consistent degree of power from him though as he was having maintain it in order to not be overwhelmed. Goten and Trunks apparently didn't use all of their base strength because they lacked auras. Who knows how much they were using exactly. Whatever amount it was, #18 would have to adjust the degree of force she uses to ensure her opponent isn't killed.
I don't think the generation of auras amidst a battle are a consistent concept employed in the series. For instance, we have Piccolo post his fusion with Kami generating an aura when battling imperfect Cell and #17, yet displaying no aura when fighting the Cell Juniors.



@ZombieVito -- could you post here or offer me a link to the Daizenshuu's statement in question?

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Mon May 13, 2019 2:59 pm

Goku was aware of the next location that Beerus was intending to travel towards. If necessary, he could always teleport directly to Earth while Beerus is there or ask either Shenron or Elder Kaioshin for the location of Beerus's planet. His candidness wouldn't prevent him from clarifying to Beerus that Freeza could be defeated without needing to transform. We have precedent of him doing something like this in examples such as his informing Shin in Babidi's ship that Cell, an enemy who once posed a dangerous threat to them, could be handled without much issue at that point in time; this information being volunteered. Beerus heard from Whis that the Super Saiyan form increases a Saiyan's power "manyfold". For Goku to confess that his normal untransformed state had attained that power and perhaps even surpassed it would carry a good impression by itself.

Piccolo's combat aura seems to be manifested sporadically during brief moments of heightened aggression instead of a consistent all-time projection. In the latter portions of his fight with #17 and initial attack on Imperfect Cell he didn't project one. You can count the amount of times Piccolo appeared in the manga during the Cell Jr fight on one hand. It seems like the vast majority of the fight was left off-screen. Not even the Saiyans brandished an aura in every panel.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:23 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 pm
So you have no proof. Well, ok then.
Vegeta that goes to be used to mop the floor by 18 to have the possibility to beat someone strong more than 2 times than 18 always In his ssj form is a proof, really
He wasn't using Super Saiyan against Cell, he used the Ascended Super Saiyan (or Second Grade, or Dai ni Dankai), isn't the same thing.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Mon May 13, 2019 6:06 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:23 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 pm
So you have no proof. Well, ok then.
Vegeta that goes to be used to mop the floor by 18 to have the possibility to beat someone strong more than 2 times than 18 always In his ssj form is a proof, really
He wasn't using Super Saiyan against Cell, he used the Ascended Super Saiyan (or Second Grade, or Dai ni Dankai), isn't the same thing.
Absolutely , but :
1) trunks said that vegeta could beat cell even without going grade 2
2) no way grade 2 is like x3 ssj, that makes no sense. Vegeta's base is grown, stop that and accept it
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Mon May 13, 2019 6:10 pm

Just thinking that goku's base has only doubled in power between namecc and buu saga is stupid, and I think everyone agrees me there
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon May 13, 2019 6:58 pm

Everyone except me :lol:
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:06 pm
1) trunks said that vegeta could beat cell even without going grade 2
2) no way grade 2 is like x3 ssj, that makes no sense. Vegeta's base is grown, stop that and accept it
1 - He never said it, at least not in the manga.
2 - Vegeta's base form at that time was stronger than before (his fight with 18), but we don't know how much and you are just making suppositions.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Mon May 13, 2019 7:13 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:10 pm
Just thinking that goku's base has only doubled in power between namecc and buu saga is stupid, and I think everyone agrees me there
We don't know for sure if their bases increased by massive amounts or if it was the power of SSJ increasing by massive amounts. Toriyama & Toei have also always entertained the idea that simple rage & determination can make a Saiyan break barriers even in unlikely circumstances.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:58 pm
Everyone except me :lol:
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:06 pm
1) trunks said that vegeta could beat cell even without going grade 2
2) no way grade 2 is like x3 ssj, that makes no sense. Vegeta's base is grown, stop that and accept it
1 - He never said it, at least not in the manga.
2 - Vegeta's base form at that time was stronger than before (his fight with 18), but we don't know how much and you are just making suppositions.
We know how much cell was stronger than 18 more or less, and anyway even lowballing semi perfect cell was at least x2,1 c18, so we have a vague idea of how much vegeta powered up.

And yeah, trunks said that. Not directly, but he was surprised of vegeta going grade 2 immediately, meaning indirectly that for trunks vegeta could beat cell even without it
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 2:00 am

theherodjl wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:13 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:10 pm
Just thinking that goku's base has only doubled in power between namecc and buu saga is stupid, and I think everyone agrees me there
We don't know for sure if their bases increased by massive amounts or if it was the power of SSJ increasing by massive amounts. Toriyama & Toei have also always entertained the idea that simple rage & determination can make a Saiyan break barriers even in unlikely circumstances.
They had to increase a lot, it is just power scaling. Moreover, for the fact that ssj Goku post rosat (50%) was at least in tier with grade 3 trunks makes that pretty clear. At that point, everyone far surpassed 6 millions
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Tue May 14, 2019 2:28 am

Lionel wrote:Goku was aware of the next location that Beerus was intending to travel towards. If necessary, he could always teleport directly to Earth while Beerus is there or ask either Shenron or Elder Kaioshin for the location of Beerus's planet.
And ruin Bulma's birthday party with needing to?

Going to Beerus' planet uninvited may just piss the God off, so I doubt he'd go for that option.
Lionel wrote:His candidness wouldn't prevent him from clarifying to Beerus that Freeza could be defeated without needing to transform. We have precedent of him doing something like this in examples such as his informing Shin in Babidi's ship that Cell, an enemy who once posed a dangerous threat to them, could be handled without much issue at that point in time
Dabura was an active threat at the time and was still semi-relevant, not to mention a major threat in Shin's eyes. Freeza was none of those to Goku or Beerus.
Lionel wrote:Beerus heard from Whis that the Super Saiyan form increases a Saiyan's power "manyfold". For Goku to confess that his normal untransformed state had attained that power and perhaps even surpassed it would carry a good impression by itself.
Goku was still unaware of what Beerus had been told about his full power though, so there was little need for him to emphasise it prior to sparring.
Lionel wrote:Piccolo's combat aura seems to be manifested sporadically during brief moments of heightened aggression instead of a consistent all-time projection. In the latter portions of his fight with #17 and initial attack on Imperfect Cell he didn't project one. You can count the amount of times Piccolo appeared in the manga during the Cell Jr fight on one hand. It seems like the vast majority of the fight was left off-screen. Not even the Saiyans brandished an aura in every panel.
Which is why I don't think an aura appearing or not appearing is enough to pinpoint whether someone was at full power. Piccolo powered up against both Cell and #17 and did display an aura... we still saw panels of him defending himself from Cell Junior's onslaught and he had none. Similarly, Piccolo also hadn't an aura against Frost, a battle in which he for sure would use the maximum of his power.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Tue May 14, 2019 3:57 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:00 am
They had to increase a lot, it is just power scaling. Moreover, for the fact that ssj Goku post rosat (50%) was at least in tier with grade 3 trunks makes that pretty clear. At that point, everyone far surpassed 6 millions
They didn't "had to increase a lot" because we don't know if that was the case. Power scaling isn't reliant on the bases being massively stronger either, that's only if the SSJ multipliers are static which is not at all the case for various fights across the series.
As for FPSSJ Goku being stronger than SSJG3 Trunks, it could still just be a case of Goku's mastered SSJ just being considerably superior to Trunks'. FPSSJ is generally described as simply being SSJ that has eliminated the strain of maintaining the form and calming the mind. However, what good what it be against stronger opponents if that is all it did? To be a "grade 4", FPSSJ probably is stronger than SSJG3. Toriyama & Toei never established that only Goku's base power increased from his ROSAT training so it does leave some room for the imagination.
On a side note, Trunks' later mastery of SSJ2 pushes the form all the way up to SSJ3's power so its not a stretch to assume that FPSSJ pushes past SSJG3 in raw power.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 am

theherodjl wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:57 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:00 am
They had to increase a lot, it is just power scaling. Moreover, for the fact that ssj Goku post rosat (50%) was at least in tier with grade 3 trunks makes that pretty clear. At that point, everyone far surpassed 6 millions
They didn't "had to increase a lot" because we don't know if that was the case. Power scaling isn't reliant on the bases being massively stronger either, that's only if the SSJ multipliers are static which is not at all the case for various fights across the series.
As for FPSSJ Goku being stronger than SSJG3 Trunks, it could still just be a case of Goku's mastered SSJ just being considerably superior to Trunks'. FPSSJ is generally described as simply being SSJ that has eliminated the strain of maintaining the form and calming the mind. However, what good what it be against stronger opponents if that is all it did? To be a "grade 4", FPSSJ probably is stronger than SSJG3. Toriyama & Toei never established that only Goku's base power increased from his ROSAT training so it does leave some room for the imagination.
On a side note, Trunks' later mastery of SSJ2 pushes the form all the way up to SSJ3's power so its not a stretch to assume that FPSSJ pushes past SSJG3 in raw power.
Ssj g4 =Ssj g1 , since base vegeta < base Goku and ssj vegeta (cell games) was stronger than ssj Gohan ( suppressed) and ssj Goku (50%) (in fact, vegeta knows only half of goku's power at that point, and he was sure he was the only one that could defeat cell possibly). Gohan was believed from everyone to be weaker than Goku at that that point. If ssj g4>> ssj that wouldn't be the case, it couldn't be so.

They had trained, their base had powered up a lot. Multipliers doesn't change, ssj is always ssj
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Tue May 14, 2019 6:45 am

ahill1 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:28 am
Lionel wrote:Goku was aware of the next location that Beerus was intending to travel towards. If necessary, he could always teleport directly to Earth while Beerus is there or ask either Shenron or Elder Kaioshin for the location of Beerus's planet.
And ruin Bulma's birthday party with needing to?

Going to Beerus' planet uninvited may just piss the God off, so I doubt he'd go for that option.
Lionel wrote:His candidness wouldn't prevent him from clarifying to Beerus that Freeza could be defeated without needing to transform. We have precedent of him doing something like this in examples such as his informing Shin in Babidi's ship that Cell, an enemy who once posed a dangerous threat to them, could be handled without much issue at that point in time
Dabura was an active threat at the time and was still semi-relevant, not to mention a major threat in Shin's eyes. Freeza was none of those to Goku or Beerus.
Lionel wrote:Beerus heard from Whis that the Super Saiyan form increases a Saiyan's power "manyfold". For Goku to confess that his normal untransformed state had attained that power and perhaps even surpassed it would carry a good impression by itself.
Goku was still unaware of what Beerus had been told about his full power though, so there was little need for him to emphasise it prior to sparring.
Lionel wrote:Piccolo's combat aura seems to be manifested sporadically during brief moments of heightened aggression instead of a consistent all-time projection. In the latter portions of his fight with #17 and initial attack on Imperfect Cell he didn't project one. You can count the amount of times Piccolo appeared in the manga during the Cell Jr fight on one hand. It seems like the vast majority of the fight was left off-screen. Not even the Saiyans brandished an aura in every panel.
Which is why I don't think an aura appearing or not appearing is enough to pinpoint whether someone was at full power. Piccolo powered up against both Cell and #17 and did display an aura... we still saw panels of him defending himself from Cell Junior's onslaught and he had none. Similarly, Piccolo also hadn't an aura against Frost, a battle in which he for sure would use the maximum of his power.
Beerus was a threat and posed as an awkward unwanted guest at Bulma's party. His sense of self-entitlement and needing to be the centre of attention would have made for a dilemma which I'm certain Bulma and the others would want addressed. It gives Goku the opportunity to request a fight and relocate. Goku's impropriety and the lack of someone such as King Kai to keep his actions in check would compel him to seek out Beerus on his own initiative. If not for sparring alone then also for training from someone with the seeming credentials for it.

The juxtaposition of Freeza to Goku and the necessity of the Super Saiyan power for the Saiyan to defeat him caused the tyrant's power to become a topic of serious interest with the current antagonist of the arc. Freeza himself wasn't a tangible threat but his reputation and relationship with Beerus made for a curious inquiry that was the major impetus for the Hakaishin seeking Goku out on King Kai's in the first place. When said comparison does get made, it would be disingenuous for him not to admit that he had increased his power to such a degree that Freeza no longer required Super Saiyan. Beerus already held an interest in Goku's power and was making inquiries about it prior to the sparring request. It leaves a better impression which is what Goku would want in the hopes of getting his match.

Auras themselves can also be an indication of concentrated ki. Somehow a momentary cessation of the aura before it starts to emit once again doesn't appear to drain the user's power much if at all. We see this in Piccolo's fight with #17. The battle with Cell Jr was so negligibly covered that it's difficult to get an idea of anything. What's interesting is that both Piccolo and Frost didn't brandish an aura during their fight. Piccolo's intention was to prolong things as much as possible and drain Frost of his stamina. Ironically, Freeza's "advice" to Frost in the Tournament of Power entailed going all out which included him projecting an aura. It was noted that going at that pace would drain him quickly. Both Piccolo and Frost in their fight weren't in a position to be using up all of their stamina like that -- Piccolo because of his intended stall tactics and Frost because of his need to conserve stamina for his fight with Vegeta. In the 25th tournament finale, Goten and Trunks wouldn't need to fret about such issues because Mr Satan's strength amount is so flimsy by comparison that they would probably need to be crippled down to Goku's condition after the Saiyan arc for Mr Satan to have any chance.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:58 pm
Everyone except me :lol:
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:06 pm
1) trunks said that vegeta could beat cell even without going grade 2
2) no way grade 2 is like x3 ssj, that makes no sense. Vegeta's base is grown, stop that and accept it
1 - He never said it, at least not in the manga.
2 - Vegeta's base form at that time was stronger than before (his fight with 18), but we don't know how much and you are just making suppositions.
We know how much cell was stronger than 18 more or less, and anyway even lowballing semi perfect cell was at least x2,1 c18, so we have a vague idea of how much vegeta powered up.

And yeah, trunks said that. Not directly, but he was surprised of vegeta going grade 2 immediately, meaning indirectly that for trunks vegeta could beat cell even without it
Nah, if this logic is true then Trunks himself wouldn't need to use Grade 2, but he used this form against Cell. In addition, Vegeta would have said something like "I don't even need to use this form to beat you".

Also, the logic behind power levels isn't necessarily as simple as "if X is 2 times stronger than Y then his power level is also 2 times stronger".

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