The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:18 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 pm
alright, please tell me where in any of those does gohan show any level higher than goku?
Obviously the part that Cell said Goku overstated was that Gohan was stronger than Cell, the part that Cell admitted that was right is that Gohan is stronger than Goku. It’s really that simple. If Gohan was equal or weaker than Goku, Cell would just say Goku is completely wrong.
but it really make no sense?, cell was at a level that well match goku. how can he be stronger than goku and not cell?.

and that's me being generous and ignoring gohan's poor performance against cell defense wise

alright, why would he say goku was completely wrong?, when he judged gohan as a poor man goku during their fight?, imo. i can settle for gohan being around goku's level. maybe a bit highter.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 2:32 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm
but it really make no sense?, cell was at a level that well match goku. how can he be stronger than goku and not cell?
No. Cell was actually stronger and faster than Goku when they fought. And he was still hiding his full power. Gohan being stronger than Goku perfectly makes sense, since Gohan thought the level Goku was fighting at was low. He was even baffled that his friends were impressed with Goku’s battle power.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:38 pm

Gohan's performance looked awful because he was doing everything in his power not to fight. That's why you can't really compare how the two fought Cell. Gohan being way faster than Goku and Cell (initially) would also explain why both looked like they weren't fighting seriously. Cell had to raise his speed just to catch him..and even then, still did no damage.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 2:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:32 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm
but it really make no sense?, cell was at a level that well match goku. how can he be stronger than goku and not cell?
No. Cell was actually stronger and faster than Goku when they fought. And he was still hiding his full power. Gohan being stronger than Goku perfectly makes sense, since Gohan thought the level Goku was fighting at was low. He was even baffled that his friends were impressed with Goku’s battle power.
him hiding his fullpower does not relate to gohan and goku fight though. as he didn't show it up untill gohan showed up SS2. all we know was that he was fighting at a level that ''well match'' (whatever that means) goku. so his level stayed the same versus gohan.

context:

goku: what do you say gohan, was our battle too tough for you?
gohan: well no, but neither of you was fighting for real, yet, right?
goku: i don't know about cell, but i was doing my best, so to you, it looked like i wasn't really trying, huh?

well. when you combine this text and gohan reaction to cell during his and goku' power-ups. i suppose that it's clear that gohan assumed that both cell and goku were holding back, in which, goku corrects him. he also asks whether the battle was too tough for him, in which he responds with no, i suppose it only goes equal to goku and up from there.

alright, point taken, was highter than goku. but from out of curiousity, from 1 to 10. where do you place goku and gohan?

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm

Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ruler9871 » Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm
Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.
There's no way the Base Saiyans were that weak then.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Sat May 18, 2019 2:34 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm
Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.
There's no way the Base Saiyans were that weak then.
I think that too, but these are just indicative numbers to me. He didn't really meant he thinks these are the actual power levels, I hope
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Sat May 18, 2019 2:35 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:32 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm
but it really make no sense?, cell was at a level that well match goku. how can he be stronger than goku and not cell?
No. Cell was actually stronger and faster than Goku when they fought. And he was still hiding his full power. Gohan being stronger than Goku perfectly makes sense, since Gohan thought the level Goku was fighting at was low. He was even baffled that his friends were impressed with Goku’s battle power.
him hiding his fullpower does not relate to gohan and goku fight though. as he didn't show it up untill gohan showed up SS2. all we know was that he was fighting at a level that ''well match'' (whatever that means) goku. so his level stayed the same versus gohan.

context:

goku: what do you say gohan, was our battle too tough for you?
gohan: well no, but neither of you was fighting for real, yet, right?
goku: i don't know about cell, but i was doing my best, so to you, it looked like i wasn't really trying, huh?

well. when you combine this text and gohan reaction to cell during his and goku' power-ups. i suppose that it's clear that gohan assumed that both cell and goku were holding back, in which, goku corrects him. he also asks whether the battle was too tough for him, in which he responds with no, i suppose it only goes equal to goku and up from there.

alright, point taken, was highter than goku. but from out of curiousity, from 1 to 10. where do you place goku and gohan?
If Gohan is 10, Goku is 8 or 8,5. Anyway, a difference of x1,2 or x1,25
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat May 18, 2019 6:43 pm

p-hyvo wrote:No, there's nothing that can make coherent the relationship between power levels and destructive power.
Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, I ain’t talking only about destructive power, but about everything else: strength, speed, etc.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat May 18, 2019 7:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:52 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm
how is SS gohan stronger than an SS goku?. absurd, the performance comparisons between those two fights speak for themselves.
Goku says Gohan was stronger than himself and Cell. Gohan reveals his SS power. Cell says Goku wasn’t completely wrong and overstated part of his implication i.e Gohan is stronger than Goku but weaker than Cell. Gohan reveals his SS2 power. Goku is completely right now. Gohan is stronger than Cell...
After Piccolo gives a moral lesson to Goku, he immediately asks Kuririn a Senzu to return the fight against Cell, suggesting that Gohan would not be able to face him in the way that Goku himself did.

Not to mention that the title '' the one who surpass Goku'' seems to refer to the fact that Goku said Gohan was more powerful than him but considering all the hidden potential in his son.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 18, 2019 10:47 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm
There's no way the Base Saiyans were that weak then.
Care to explain why? I thought I was being generous.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:18 pm
After Piccolo gives a moral lesson to Goku, he immediately asks Kuririn a Senzu to return the fight against Cell, suggesting that Gohan would not be able to face him in the way that Goku himself did.
That’s only because Gohan didn’t have the right mindset for battle. His battle power was already greater than Goku as SS, as Cell confirmed. To be fair, even as a SS2, Gohan didn’t really become the warrior he was meant to be until he realized his mistakes and did the right thing.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Sat May 18, 2019 11:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:47 pm
That’s only because Gohan didn’t have the right mindset for battle. His battle power was already greater than Goku as SS, as Cell confirmed. To be fair, even as a SS2, Gohan didn’t really become the warrior he was meant to be until he realized his mistakes and did the right thing.
There is a filler scene in which Gohan turns SSJ2 for a split second in the ROSAT so that may very well explain why Goku believed Gohan to be 'stronger'.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Sun May 19, 2019 2:31 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:43 pm
p-hyvo wrote:No, there's nothing that can make coherent the relationship between power levels and destructive power.
Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, I ain’t talking only about destructive power, but about everything else: strength, speed, etc.
That's not coherent too, toriyama isn't great in keeping that aspect coherent. He never had a pattern for that, he always went randomly
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun May 19, 2019 8:02 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm
Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.
There's no way the Base Saiyans were that weak then.
I don't see why not. There's nothing indicated at any point that the base Saiyans ever got higher than the numbers he suggested. I don't necessarily agree that they were that low, but at the same time, as said, there's nothing suggesting they were higher than that.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Sun May 19, 2019 9:11 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:02 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm
Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.
There's no way the Base Saiyans were that weak then.
I don't see why not. There's nothing indicated at any point that the base Saiyans ever got higher than the numbers he suggested. I don't necessarily agree that they were that low, but at the same time, as said, there's nothing suggesting they were higher than that.
I think logic does contradict that numbers, sincerely. I have all the saiyans stronger than freezer in base by the cell games, kek. Really, using decent gaps, I just can't have them under freezer
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 19, 2019 9:06 pm

What does exactly mean “decent gaps”?

SS Goku (vs. Freeza) - 150M
SS Vegeta (vs. No.18) - 250M
No.17 - 300M
Cell (1st stage) - 350M
Cell (2nd stage) - 800M
Super Vegeta - 1B
SS Goku (vs. Cell) - 2.5B
SS Goku (vs. Yakon) - 4B
SS Goku (vs. Beerus) - 4.5B

So, that would mean at his regular form, Goku would have about 90M, in my account.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Sun May 19, 2019 11:17 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:06 pm
What does exactly mean “decent gaps”?

SS Goku (vs. Freeza) - 150M
SS Vegeta (vs. No.18) - 250M
No.17 - 300M
Cell (1st stage) - 350M
Cell (2nd stage) - 800M
Super Vegeta - 1B
SS Goku (vs. Cell) - 2.5B
SS Goku (vs. Yakon) - 4B
SS Goku (vs. Beerus) - 4.5B

So, that would mean at his regular form, Goku would have about 90M, in my account.
better yet, why not just write a and call it a day. like seriously, those numbers are absurd.

official material state Yakon level of Power was 40M.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:06 pm
What does exactly mean “decent gaps”?

SS Goku (vs. Freeza) - 150M
SS Vegeta (vs. No.18) - 250M
No.17 - 300M
Cell (1st stage) - 350M
Cell (2nd stage) - 800M
Super Vegeta - 1B
SS Goku (vs. Cell) - 2.5B
SS Goku (vs. Yakon) - 4B
SS Goku (vs. Beerus) - 4.5B

So, that would mean at his regular form, Goku would have about 90M, in my account.

For Decent gaps i mean like : if one is dominated by someone else, difference of x1,25.If oneshotted, difference of x1,33.

Then, allow me to correct your power levels

We know freezer was 120'000'000
Once he got upgraded, he was sure of beating Goku, so
Mecha freezer 200'000'000 (150 x1,33)
Cold 90'000'000 (a bit less than 50% of freezer)
Trunks ssj 275'000'000 (freezer x1,33, really a bit more but more or less)
Goku ssj 300'000'000

Androids saga

Piccolo (he's foundamental in determining the androids. He was sure of beating a freezer level enemy and had similar performances to the ssjs against the androids so) 300'000'000
Trunks ssj 345'000'000
Goku ssj 380'000'000
Vegeta ssj 400'000'000
#17 600'000'000
#18'680'000'000
Cell (dominated both piccolo and #17) 800'000'000
Semi perfect cell 1'400'000'000
Full power semi perfect cell (vegeta stated he powered up a lot) 1'850'000'000 (more or less x1,33 from base semi perfect cell)
Ssj vegeta (trunks stated he could have beaten cell even without grade 2) 2'000'000'000
Vegeta grade 2 2'400'000'000/2'500'000'000 (both are fine, maybe better 2,5 bil)
Ssj trunks 1'925'000'000
Initial perfect cell 2'530'000'000 (similar to vegeta g2)
Perfect cell adapted 3'400'000'000 (x1,33 from vegeta)
Trunks grade 3 (just made ssj x1,9) 3'657'500'000
Goku ssj, 50% (was a lot stronger than trunks) 4'800'000'000
Goku ssj fullpower 9'600'000'000
Vegeta ssj 7'600'000'000
Trunks ssj 7'000'000'000
Piccolo 6'300'000'000
Gohan ssj Fullpower 12'000'000'000 (decently stronger than Goku)
Injuried ssj Gohan 9'000'000'000
Ssj2 Gohan , rage 108'000'000'000
Cell , vs Goku 10'500'000'000 (Goku stated cell had the edge on him)
Cell , vs Gohan (easily dominated him) 16'000'000'000
Cell, fullpower 21'000'000'000
Cell, buff 39'900'000'000 (same gap as grade 3 from ssj)
Super perfect cell 84'000'000'000

BUU SAGA

here, the adult base saiyans are implied to be stronger than piccolo and shin a bunch of times, both by vegeta, shin and dabra. In but saga, using the x50 multiplier is totally uncomfortable, so I'll use a x4 multiplier for ssj

Dabra 88'800'000'000
Goku, ssj 60'000'000'000
Goku , ssj2 120'000'000'000
Goku, ssj3 (living body limit) 240'000'000'000
Genkidama 260'000'000'000
Goku, healed by porunga 18'000'000'000
Goku, ssj 90'000'000'000
Genkidama + Goku 350'000'000'000
Kid buu 260'000'000'000
Fat buu 215'000'000'000
Good buu 86'000'000'000
Goku 15'000'000'000
Vegeta 12'500'000'000
Gohan vs dabra 10'000'000'000
Shin (stated to be = cell games ssj Goku in a guide) 9'600'000'000
Piccolo 6'500'000'000
Yakon 16'000'000'000
Pocus 9'350'000'000
Goku (bog) just a bit stronger than in but saga, 20'000'000'000 is fine

Beerus was just taunting him saying that weaker than freezer thing.just don't consider that
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 am

Shintoki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:17 pm
better yet, why not just write a and call it a day. like seriously, those numbers are absurd.

official material state Yakon level of Power was 40M.
I’m still waiting for explanation for why those numbers are absurd. The lack of it makes me think you just haven’t one.

The official material you mean is the same V-Jump scan that says 1 kiri equals 50,000 in the former scale and that SS Goku had 150M by the time he fights Boo? I’m not sure how it relates to this thread. Perhaps you want to tell that Base Goku has to be at 3M too.
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 am
For Decent gaps i mean like : if one is dominated by someone else, difference of x1,25.If oneshotted, difference of x1,33.

Then, allow me to correct your power levels

[...]

BUU SAGA

here, the adult base saiyans are implied to be stronger than piccolo and shin a bunch of times, both by vegeta, shin and dabra. In but saga, using the x50 multiplier is totally uncomfortable, so I'll use a x4 multiplier for ssj

[...]

Beerus was just taunting him saying that weaker than freezer thing.just don't consider that
You know the factor you are using for “decent gaps” is a made-up one, don’t you? Vegeta didn’t need nowhere near over 10% of power difference to one-shot Dodoria. You can’t seriously expect that others are obligated to follow it. You are not correcting anything.

Vegeta, Kaioshin and Dabra never implied the Base Saiyans were that strong. You are making some confusion here, because they are obviously factoring their hidden potential whenever they talked about Goku and the other Saiyans. Why exactly you feel “uncomfortable” of using the factor of 50 for Super Saiyan instead of a made-up one?

Beerus had no reason to lie about what he said, since SS3 is nothing to him. He was just showing that even if Goku and Freeza are ants to him, he is able to tell Super Saiyan has the power to defeat Freeza and that Base has not. This is the most direct it can be.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Mon May 20, 2019 8:04 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 am
Shintoki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:17 pm
better yet, why not just write a and call it a day. like seriously, those numbers are absurd.

official material state Yakon level of Power was 40M.
I’m still waiting for explanation for why those numbers are absurd. The lack of it makes me think you just haven’t one.

The official material you mean is the same V-Jump scan that says 1 kiri equals 50,000 in the former scale and that SS Goku had 150M by the time he fights Boo? I’m not sure how it relates to this thread. Perhaps you want to tell that Base Goku has to be at 3M too.
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 am
For Decent gaps i mean like : if one is dominated by someone else, difference of x1,25.If oneshotted, difference of x1,33.

Then, allow me to correct your power levels

[...]

BUU SAGA

here, the adult base saiyans are implied to be stronger than piccolo and shin a bunch of times, both by vegeta, shin and dabra. In but saga, using the x50 multiplier is totally uncomfortable, so I'll use a x4 multiplier for ssj

[...]

Beerus was just taunting him saying that weaker than freezer thing.just don't consider that
You know the factor you are using for “decent gaps” is a made-up one, don’t you? Vegeta didn’t need nowhere near over 10% of power difference to one-shot Dodoria. You can’t seriously expect that others are obligated to follow it. You are not correcting anything.

Vegeta, Kaioshin and Dabra never implied the Base Saiyans were that strong. You are making some confusion here, because they are obviously factoring their hidden potential whenever they talked about Goku and the other Saiyans. Why exactly you feel “uncomfortable” of using the factor of 50 for Super Saiyan instead of a made-up one?

Beerus had no reason to lie about what he said, since SS3 is nothing to him. He was just showing that even if Goku and Freeza are ants to him, he is able to tell Super Saiyan has the power to defeat Freeza and that Base has not. This is the most direct it can be.
The difference in that case was 9%, but going by the official power levels, between ssj Goku and freezer there was a x1,25 gap, and still it was a close match. So yeah, that dodoria thing doesn't mean anything.

Vegeta told that he was sure to win the tournament without using ssj, and at the same tournament were participating both piccolo and #18.,we yeah, vegeta implied to be stronger than piccolo in base.
Shin thought that him, Goku, Gohan and vegeta had to go 4v1 in order to beat pocus, and vegeta just oneshotting him shocked kaioken badly, implying 've gee talking is in fact stronger than him in base, since he was so scared about pocus.
Dabra, without knowing about the ssj or anything, thought that people like shin an piccolo were folders, while base Goku , vegeta and Gohan were strong. That's a strong implication .
Plus, yakon and pocus were bot described as "babidi took over the strongest warriors in the cosmos", so, if they are weaker than cold and freezer, why didn't just babidi took over freezer instead of them? That implies they are both stronger than freezer in fact, and still base vegeta oneshots one of them, and the other was shown to be relative to base Goku.

For the multipliers thing, having Goku that strong would mean you have to give to Gohan at the cell games a boost of like x100 just between ssj and ssj2, so no, x50 isn't right for buu saga, that would be way to exaggerated. Another proof of that is base Goku and yakon being relative in power. Yakon was 800 ,ssj Goku 3000. Going by the x50,Goku would be 60 in base, so no, that's like a12 times difference and it is too much. How much 3000/4 does?750,and that would be perfect for base Goku in relation to yakon.
For the beerus thing , well. Freezer was the only mortal he knew and took him as a general reference of power. He didn't really have an idea about how much stronger was freezer back then, moreover if we count the fact that the only canon interaction he had with freezer was faith-based freezer, the one with the 530'000 power level .
So yes, that weaker than freezer"thing isn't very reliable, because as we know Goku far surpassed that power level by namecc saga. In the manga, versus tells that thing after seeing ssj2, that further proofs he really didn't know what he was talking about, and maybe, for his logic, considering how much stronger than another was back then, he perfectly could have put anyone else in the same tier, without any power distinction, since he could just oneshot anyone the same way
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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