Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

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Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri May 24, 2019 11:32 am

Alright, so with most top Dragon Ball films lists I've seen from fans lately, it's usually either one of these two in the top spot. I want to know which one you think is better than the other and why.

As for what I think? Super: Broly is better. Like... way better. There's just such a massive difference in quality. BoG does a great job introducing Beerus into the mythos and his quest in finding the Super Saiyan God is interesting enough, but goddamn, the second he arrives on Earth the story just stops. I really loved the movie the first few times I watched it, but the moment I realised that the story of the story hit pause in favour of gag scenes, it automatically felt like they were padding out the film just to hit a feature-length runtime. Gag scenes should complement a narrative, not take centre-stage and run the whole thing. It goes on like this until Buu eats all the pudding and Beerus gets mad. It's made even worse in the extended edition.

Once the film goes back to being about the Super Saiyan God and having Goku become one, I was finally engaged again. The fight that follows is also really damn good. I love Goku's whole dissatisfaction with the form because he wasn't able to achieve it on his own. The conversation between him and Beerus during the fight was also great. The film also ends in a satisfying way. Goku admitting defeat to Beerus is one of my favourite scenes in the entire franchise. It hearkens back to Muten Roshi's lesson all the way back in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai; there will always be someone better than you out there. It's a great Dragon Ball film, it's just that middle part, man. Way too much padding.

Now, Broly? Broly does things that I never thought I would see in Dragon Ball. Let's get the obvious out of the way first. It looks waaay better than BoG. Everything from direction, storyboarding, character designs, artwork, animation and backgrounds absolutely put BoG to shame. It is the best looking Dragon Ball thing ever. I've seen some people say that the film is lacking in story but I totally disagree. Super: Broly is a character piece about, well, Broly. He is the protagonist of the film. Goku and Vegeta's whole origins that play out in the first act in the film served to build up Broly's story. Vegeta's very existence was what caused Broly to be exiled to Vampa. Goku's origins showed that the tiniest bit of affection shown from Bardock completely changed the direction of Goku's life for the better, compared to the vengeance shown from Paragus that changed the life of his son Broly for the worse. When the two of them meet, you know that they're both good Saiyans at heart, it's just their circumstances that have made them different. You could tell that Broly had an affect on Goku through him saying his Saiyan name "Kakarot" at the end. Goku realised that there was a Saiyan like him out there, which meant that not all Saiyans were scumbags and that his heritage was worth embracing. It's that subtle type of storytelling that I haven't seen from this series in a while. If this was any other shounen anime they would've dramatised the fuck outta it.

I never once felt during the film that they were padding things out. Every scene served a purpose to the narrative. Even Freeza's whole wish to grow taller was the reason behind why Goku, Vegeta and Broly all met in the film. Some have argued that the long action scenes completely throw the narrative to the side, but that can't be further away from the truth. The fights slowly show Broly descending into madness and the end-goal isn't to defeat him but is rather a fight to save his soul. You learn so much about Broly prior to the big fight. His abuse from Paragus, his friendship with Bah and the fact that he'll still abide to his father even after everything because he's the only person he's truly known his whole life. That scene where Broly is terrified just at the sight of the shock remote from Paragus is one of the most heartbreaking moments I've ever seen from this series.

The movie made a subtle parallel between Broly and the big green dog monsters on Vampa that I really liked. At the start of the film where Beets and Paragus are exploring Vampa (fantastic scene btw) they encounter those monsters and they're portrayed as huge, terrifying green beasts that feast on those bug creatures. But later on in Freeza's ship, you learn that Broly befriended one of these monsters and they turned out to be really sweet. Toriyama was making the point that Broly is just like the green doggo monsters. He had to survive on Vampa eating the bug creatures just like them. There's even a moment where Broly's completely lost it and he's slowly rising out of the ground, surrounded by green aura and he has red eyes, just like the monsters on Vampa. I looove stuff like that. Broly's a terrified little child deep down and you just want to see him get through all of this. I loved this rendition of Broly and I want to see more of him. Such a fantastic film.

To me, Super: Broly is significantly better. Battle of Gods just doesn't have any of that subtle storytelling that I mentioned above. I don't feel emotionally attached to the film's plot and characters. Half of the movie felt like something with an actual story and the other half felt like "Hey! Remember these guys? It's been a while, yeah? Let's just dick around for like 30 minutes cause it's been so long." And while that stuff is fun to watch as a big fan of this series and its characters, it just doesn't work in the grand scheme of the film's story. I'm really interested to see what other people think, though.

Poor Resurrection 'F', though. I see so many people shitting on that movie now. I still like you. :lol:

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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by sintzu » Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 pm

I personally think BOG is better from a story and character point of view. Both Goku and Vegeta get great character development. Gohan and the other Z fighters get their moments, although short. Beerus and Whis are still the best parts of moden DB. Broly as a character is nowhere near as interesting or fun to watch as they are. Broly's production however is better. The fights and overall look of the movie are simply breathtaking. What really holds Broly back is that at the end of the day, it's just 3 older stories mixed into one new one, and that's something no amount of great visuals can make up for.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 12:25 pm

Narratively, there's a lot of extraneous material in BoG, but I still enjoy it all. It's fun, the new characters are great, and the end provides thematic closure. The party story and Pilaf material isn't quote unquote on-story, it does serve to remind us how much we enjoy these characters and like seeing them interact as well as serve as a typical "here's the good guys having fun before all hell breaks loose" scenario. All in all, I enjoyed it way more than Broly. The new one, despite enjoying it, feels like a step in the wrong direction. It's going back to the Freeza and Saiyan conflict, it changes Goku's story from one of a lower classman making something of himself into a Superman story. Freeza's inclusion adds nothing and serves to further his descent into Saturday Morning cartoon villainy. The stuff with Broly's monster friend is gilding the lily. Your point about the subtlety of the writing in the film falls limp for me because not only is Goku a good Saiyan, he's seen Vegeta change. He's long since embraced his Saiyan heritage. This isn't something new or a grand realization. He made peace with it years ago. The one point I wholeheartedly agree about is the quality of Broly's animation.

I'm happy you liked Broly more. It was a fun movie, not as bad as it could've been, but hardly DB at its best.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri May 24, 2019 12:29 pm

I still haven’t seen dbs Broly but I’d put BOG nowhere near the top. Probably middle of the road at best.

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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by PremiumSalt » Fri May 24, 2019 1:35 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:32 am
the second [Beerus] arrives on Earth the story just stops.
I couldn't disagree more, and funnily enough that's actually the exact problem I have with Super: Broly.

As soon as Freeza, Paragus, and Broly arrive on Earth, there is absolutely no plot for the rest of the movie, it's just fighting. Mind you, it's exceptionally well animated and entertaining fighting, but there's just no story.

Meanwhile, at least BoG feels like it has a plotline through most of it. Sure, a lot of that plot is dominated by gags, but c'mon, it's Dragon Ball. There's actual tension, for me at least, every time one little thing goes wrong, the viewer worries about whether Beerus is going to snap. In Broly, there's no tension at all, it's a fight, we all knew exactly how it was going to end, Broly was gonna lose and Goku/Vegeta were going to win.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri May 24, 2019 9:10 pm

PremiumSalt wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:35 pm
In Broly, there's no tension at all, it's a fight, we all knew exactly how it was going to end, Broly was gonna lose and Goku/Vegeta were going to win.
The tension behind the big fight was whether or not Broly was going to get through and survive all of this. The battle slowly shows Broly becoming more and more out of control and powerful. When Freeza kills Paragus, Broly had completely lost it, so Goku and Vegeta had to take him out. But you as a viewer don't want that. You've learned throughout the film that Broly is a good guy and you've developed an attachment to him. The victory of the film was Broly escaping and surviving, not Goku and Vegeta winning.

Keeping Beerus under control during the middle portion of BoG wasn't enough to keep me engaged, especially since it throws away the main plot of the film to the side. Trust me, I enjoy all of that stuff, but at the end of the day it just feels like they were padding out the run time with gag scenes.

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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 10:07 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:10 pm
PremiumSalt wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:35 pm
In Broly, there's no tension at all, it's a fight, we all knew exactly how it was going to end, Broly was gonna lose and Goku/Vegeta were going to win.
The tension behind the big fight was whether or not Broly was going to get through and survive all of this. The battle slowly shows Broly becoming more and more out of control and powerful. When Freeza kills Paragus, Broly had completely lost it, so Goku and Vegeta had to take him out. But you as a viewer don't want that. You've learned throughout the film that Broly is a good guy and you've developed an attachment to him. The victory of the film was Broly escaping and surviving, not Goku and Vegeta winning.

Keeping Beerus under control during the middle portion of BoG wasn't enough to keep me engaged, especially since it throws away the main plot of the film to the side. Trust me, I enjoy all of that stuff, but at the end of the day it just feels like they were padding out the run time with gag scenes.
Mileage clearly varies because I wasn't invested in Broly's character. He's nice, but I don't feel bad for him. I don't find him interesting. The reasons for fighting were superficial and felt like a typical superhero vs. superhero battle It's either due to mind control or a convoluted misunderstanding or the writer decides to make them both dicks. In this case, it might as well have been mind control because Broly's power drives him insane.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Nightbane » Fri May 24, 2019 11:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:25 pm
Narratively, there's a lot of extraneous material in BoG, but I still enjoy it all. It's fun, the new characters are great, and the end provides thematic closure. The party story and Pilaf material isn't quote unquote on-story, it does serve to remind us how much we enjoy these characters and like seeing them interact as well as serve as a typical "here's the good guys having fun before all hell breaks loose" scenario. All in all, I enjoyed it way more than Broly. The new one, despite enjoying it, feels like a step in the wrong direction. It's going back to the Freeza and Saiyan conflict, it changes Goku's story from one of a lower classman making something of himself into a Superman story. Freeza's inclusion adds nothing and serves to further his descent into Saturday Morning cartoon villainy. The stuff with Broly's monster friend is gilding the lily. Your point about the subtlety of the writing in the film falls limp for me because not only is Goku a good Saiyan, he's seen Vegeta change. He's long since embraced his Saiyan heritage. This isn't something new or a grand realization. He made peace with it years ago. The one point I wholeheartedly agree about is the quality of Broly's animation.

I'm happy you liked Broly more. It was a fun movie, not as bad as it could've been, but hardly DB at its best.
Yea I'm not sure what you mean by Freeza adding nothing to the movie, Freeza's inclusion in the movie is actually one of the biggest praises for it, you're actually the only person I've seen so far say this.

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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sat May 25, 2019 3:25 am

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:25 pm
Narratively, there's a lot of extraneous material in BoG, but I still enjoy it all. It's fun, the new characters are great, and the end provides thematic closure. The party story and Pilaf material isn't quote unquote on-story, it does serve to remind us how much we enjoy these characters and like seeing them interact as well as serve as a typical "here's the good guys having fun before all hell breaks loose" scenario. All in all, I enjoyed it way more than Broly. The new one, despite enjoying it, feels like a step in the wrong direction. It's going back to the Freeza and Saiyan conflict, it changes Goku's story from one of a lower classman making something of himself into a Superman story. Freeza's inclusion adds nothing and serves to further his descent into Saturday Morning cartoon villainy. The stuff with Broly's monster friend is gilding the lily. Your point about the subtlety of the writing in the film falls limp for me because not only is Goku a good Saiyan, he's seen Vegeta change. He's long since embraced his Saiyan heritage. This isn't something new or a grand realization. He made peace with it years ago. The one point I wholeheartedly agree about is the quality of Broly's animation.

I'm happy you liked Broly more. It was a fun movie, not as bad as it could've been, but hardly DB at its best.
Does it really change that lower class men aspect when it emphasises the lower class status of his parents, along with himself?
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Captain Awesome » Sat May 25, 2019 4:17 am

Battle of Gods with ease, it has that snappy, playful Toriyama feel to it and it does a great job of opening up new possibilities in what I thought at the time was a spent property.

That said it looks like shit when it is put next to Broly which is a visual spectacle with not equal in the series.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by sintzu » Sat May 25, 2019 4:54 am

Nightbane wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:29 pm
I'm not sure what you mean by Freeza adding nothing to the movie, Freeza's inclusion in the movie is actually one of the biggest praises for it, you're actually the only person I've seen so far say this.
He's right. Between what he wanted to wish for and the way broly kicked him around, he's slowly turning into a Saturday Morning cartoon villain. He's no longer the name that spread fear to all who heared it like he was back on Namek. Then there was the whole "I'll beat you next time" at the end which made things even worse. Gogeta was willing to kill Broly yet let Freeza go despite not only causing the whole problem, but saying he'll do it again ?
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 7:09 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:25 am
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:25 pm
Narratively, there's a lot of extraneous material in BoG, but I still enjoy it all. It's fun, the new characters are great, and the end provides thematic closure. The party story and Pilaf material isn't quote unquote on-story, it does serve to remind us how much we enjoy these characters and like seeing them interact as well as serve as a typical "here's the good guys having fun before all hell breaks loose" scenario. All in all, I enjoyed it way more than Broly. The new one, despite enjoying it, feels like a step in the wrong direction. It's going back to the Freeza and Saiyan conflict, it changes Goku's story from one of a lower classman making something of himself into a Superman story. Freeza's inclusion adds nothing and serves to further his descent into Saturday Morning cartoon villainy. The stuff with Broly's monster friend is gilding the lily. Your point about the subtlety of the writing in the film falls limp for me because not only is Goku a good Saiyan, he's seen Vegeta change. He's long since embraced his Saiyan heritage. This isn't something new or a grand realization. He made peace with it years ago. The one point I wholeheartedly agree about is the quality of Broly's animation.

I'm happy you liked Broly more. It was a fun movie, not as bad as it could've been, but hardly DB at its best.
Does it really change that lower class men aspect when it emphasises the lower class status of his parents, along with himself?
No, because now it's framing Goku being saved as a sort of redemption for the Saiyans when before, Goku was nothing more than a castaway sent to some pissant world to destroy its people and he couldn't even do that right.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat May 25, 2019 11:32 am

The problem with BOG is that it is the movie which could've used Super Broly's production value precisely because of its exceedingly superficial story; both Beerus and Goku are just two dudes who want to have a good sparring match. That's a really lame premise for a world-ending scenario, which could've been easily excused if the battle itself had been of epic proportions, but alas it wasn't. That's why I liked Super Broly. We all know Broly's basic character concept is just a brutal psycho meathead, so what we got was 45 minutes of complete and utter battle insanity, and it was awesome.

Also, Vegeta actually got properly utilized in Super Broly, which is a huge plus seeing as how he's very regularly just Goku's unwitting hype man.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 11:36 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:32 am
The problem with BOG is that it is the movie which could've used Super Broly's production value precisely because of its exceedingly superficial story; both Beerus and Goku are just two dudes who want to have a good sparring match. That's a really lame premise for a world-ending scenario, which could've been easily excused if the battle itself had been of epic proportions, but alas it wasn't. That's why I liked Super Broly. We all know Broly's basic character concept is just a brutal psycho meathead, so what we got was 45 minutes of complete and utter battle insanity, and it was awesome.

Also, Vegeta actually got properly utilized in Super Broly, which is a huge plus seeing as how he's very regularly just Goku's unwitting hype man.
You think it's a lame premise, but it's very DB. The constant world ending stakes get boring if it's all the same thing. The reasons for this fight are refreshingly different.

The previous version of Broly was a psycho meathead. This one was a nice guy whose power overwhelms his sense of sanity. I honestly can't tell you why Broly felt the need to battle Goku and Vegeta. The motives are that forgettable.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sat May 25, 2019 11:43 am

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:36 am
I honestly can't tell you why Broly felt the need to battle Goku and Vegeta. The motives are that forgettable.
To appease his dad while simultaneously being a victim of his own rage. The movie takes several opportunities to stress that fact.

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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat May 25, 2019 11:46 am

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:36 am
You think it's a lame premise, but it's very DB. The constant world ending stakes get boring if it's all the same thing. The reasons for this fight are refreshingly different.
Doesn't really refute my point. There's no sense of consequence if I'm not taking the conflict seriously, which means I need some other way of being entertained.
The previous version of Broly was a psycho meathead. This one was a nice guy whose power overwhelms his sense of sanity. I honestly can't tell you why Broly felt the need to battle Goku and Vegeta. The motives are that forgettable.
...You're saying this to prop up BOG against Super Broly?
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 12:00 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:46 am
ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 11:36 am
You think it's a lame premise, but it's very DB. The constant world ending stakes get boring if it's all the same thing. The reasons for this fight are refreshingly different.
Doesn't really refute my point. There's no sense of consequence if I'm not taking the conflict seriously, which means I need some other way of being entertained.
The previous version of Broly was a psycho meathead. This one was a nice guy whose power overwhelms his sense of sanity. I honestly can't tell you why Broly felt the need to battle Goku and Vegeta. The motives are that forgettable.
...You're saying this to prop up BOG against Super Broly?
And do you take a conflict serious just because the stakes are yet again the end of the world but the villain is more serious? A succession of enemies that are serious about destroying the world gets repetitive after a while. I do take the conflict between Beerus and our heroes serious for lack of a better word. It's different, the stakes are no less great, and battle means everything to our heroes. Winning means something as simple as being victorious for its own sake. Only so many times I can hear "it's for the sake of the village, the world, the universe, the multiverse" before I just check out completely.

I wasn't saying that to necessarily prop up BoG as much as criticize Broly. It's one of the worst parts about the movie. I don't remember his motives and the fight doesn't feel like it needs to take place.
To appease his dad while simultaneously being a victim of his own rage. The movie takes several opportunities to stress that fact.
See, that's how uninteresting it was. I was paying attention, but none of it stuck because of how boring the set up is. He's such a passive character. First he's at the whims of his father, and next he's at the whims of his power. It's an uninteresting scenario for a final battle. Broly caring about his abusive father comes off as a clichéd motive instead of a three dimensional one because we spend so little time with them together for it to land. I buy the relationship between the previous incarnations much easier.
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat May 25, 2019 3:37 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 12:00 pm
And do you take a conflict serious just because the stakes are yet again the end of the world but the villain is more serious? A succession of enemies that are serious about destroying the world gets repetitive after a while. I do take the conflict between Beerus and our heroes serious for lack of a better word. It's different, the stakes are no less great, and battle means everything to our heroes. Winning means something as simple as being victorious for its own sake. Only so many times I can hear "it's for the sake of the village, the world, the universe, the multiverse" before I just check out completely.
I don't care if the motive in DB movie X is different than DB movie Y. But there is a total cinematic dissonance in trying to shoehorn the end of the world with "guy is just looking for a match that bops". Does a DB movie suddenly not work if the entire movie is happy-go-lucky, including the premise? I certainly don't think so, and according to what you're saying, you don't think so either. They overexposed Beerus from the start such that he had no element of mystery, then gave him the aura of an antihero more than a villain. That's fine, but this is not how you make a movie that's meant to have a tone of austerity. I'm cool with a movie that has a more lighthearted feel, but this is exactly why BoG needed to have a kick-ass battle sequence to make up for the lack of substance otherwise, and IMHOtep its fight scenes were repetitive, trope-tastic, and lacking in tension.
I wasn't saying that to necessarily prop up BoG as much as criticize Broly. It's one of the worst parts about the movie. I don't remember his motives and the fight doesn't feel like it needs to take place.
Isn't this your fault for wanting Broly to be something that he isn't?
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 4:11 pm

I think you assume too much when you say Battle of Gods was trying to establish a tone of austerity. Neither movie had a great fight scene. But what BoG had over Broly was new interesting characters. I don't think Beerus was ever meant to be a straight up villain. This new take on Broly was just boring.
Isn't this your fault for wanting Broly to be something that he isn't?
I want him to be memorable, so I guess it is my fault for expecting that much. I'm unsure what you mean. What do you think I wanted Broly to be?
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Luso Saiyan
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Re: Battle of Gods vs Super: Broly

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sat May 25, 2019 4:26 pm

Battle of Gods is quintessential Dragon Ball all the way through. It's also a more even experience, well paced.

Super: Broly has some excellent moments, is more dramatic, the animation and production quality is great. But like it was said above, once Broly & co arrive on Earth the movie is non-stop fighting (and that's half the movie). It's nice and entertaining for the first few minutes (basically up to the point where Goku goes SSB), but after that it simply becomes boring, tiresome and uninteresting.

As a whole, Battle of Gods is better.

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