Unpopular DB opinions

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 12:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:10 pm

Please stop getting hung up on the word. It just means your point. I chose thesis because I didn't think you'd get hung up one particular usage of the word. Guess what analyses have? A thesis - a point they are trying to make, even if in a brief form like a post in an internet forum. I didn't mean a doctoral thesis when I used that word. Jeez.
Do you need a thesis for why someone might call Breaking Bad funny?

It feels like your go to argument "it's opinion" is such a cop out.
Well what's the name of this thread? Someone earlier expressed their opinion that DBZ is too dark compared to Super, and this argument followed against it.

If you refuse to take into account the full context of those moments and the overall approach to the story as a whole, then the opinion doesn't hold much weight.
Nonsense. You're making up this criteria arbitrarily, and I don't follow it. Like I said before, "dark" is not a genre. There is not, in any way shape or form, a set of criteria it has to fulfill to be considered "dark". You're just trying to make one up.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Do you need a thesis for why someone might call Breaking Bad funny?
A thesis is just a point you're trying to prove! I assume saying "Breaking Bad is funny" would be the thesis. I was going to say "I can't believe you are this stuck on an innocuous and well understood word" but this honestly doesn't surprise me anymore. Okay, let's use another word - point, hypothesis, theory, premise... Moving on.
That's BS. Because, like I said before, "dark" is not a genre. There is not, in any way shape or form, a set of criteria it has to fulfill to be considered "dark". You're just trying to make one up.
If your argument amounts dropping a lot of context or doesn't take into account the full scope of the story, then I can safely say you don't have an informed opinion and dismiss it. Is the Freeza arc indicative of DB as a whole? If you looked at the Saiyan arc and the Freeza arc together and nothing else, you could make a good argument that DB is relatively serious and fairly dark. Main characters die, children are killed, empires commit genocide, and tension is rife throughout those long story arcs. However, you have to judge the story based on the full scope of DB from Chapter 1-500+. That's just logical. If you make a statement about the story as a whole, you have to take into account the whole thing. If after that, you still believe it's fairly dark, then that's your opinion, and informed one.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 12:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:27 pm

A thesis is just a point you're trying to prove! I assume saying "Breaking Bad is funny" is the thesis.
Do you need that "thesis" be proven?

If your argument amounts dropping a lot of context or doesn't take into account the full scope of the story, then I can safely say you don't have an informed opinion and dismiss it. Is the Freeza arc indicative of DB as a whole?
You're still arguing that some criteria needs to be fulfill, and it's one you're making up.

You don't need to be "informed" to call Breaking Bad funny, except for maybe at least watching the show once. I've seen DB over and over, so my opinion is well informed.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu May 30, 2019 12:42 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:38 pm
Do you need that "thesis" be proven?
If you claim something (thesis) the burden of proof falls on you.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 12:45 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:42 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:38 pm
Do you need that "thesis" be proven?
If you claim something (thesis) the burden of proof falls on you.
Seriously? What proof is needed to simply saying a show is funny?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 12:49 pm

Depends on the context. If I agree, like in the case of Breaking Bad being funny, I'm less inclined to ask why. However, in this thread where it's fair to assume people are going to give provocative opinions, I don't think it's too much to ask someone to give their reasons. You don't have to give your opinion, but as long as you do, do it well. If you say DB if hilarious, I don't think you'll get much push back. If you say DB is dark don't simply look at the darker arcs.
You're still arguing that some criteria needs to be fulfill, and it's one you're making up
If you say something is dark but only take into account a portion of the story, why should we lend any credence to that opinion? It would be like watching only season 6 of Buffy and assuming that's the tone of the whole series.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 12:56 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:49 pm

Depends on the context. If I agree, like in the case of Breaking Bad being funny, I'm less inclined to ask why.
And if you disagree?

If you say DB if hilarious, I don't think you'll get much push back.
And interestingly enough, it's also only "funny" in portions, just like its dark element. Yet, that's more than enough to slap on the label "funny".

If you say something is dark but only take into account a portion of the story, why should we lend any credence to that opinion?
I've seen all of DB, so technically I am taking the whole thing into account.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 1:24 pm

I've seen all of DB, so technically I am taking the whole thing into account.
Your argument doesn't.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 1:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Your argument doesn't.
Yes it does. It's just that my criteria isn't as demanding as yours.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 2:22 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:49 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Your argument doesn't.
Yes it does. It's just that my criteria isn't as demanding as yours.
Which undercuts the quality of your argument. Why wouldn't you include the rest of the story as part of your argument? And asking someone to take into account the whole story is hardly a demanding criterion. I'm not asking for some huge page or academic paper on it, but is it really too much to ask that you include a reason why a good chunk of the DB manga isn't as indicative of the overall feel of the series as the later portions?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 2:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:22 pm

Why wouldn't you include the rest of the story as part of your argument?
Because I also don't do that to label DB as funny. And neither do you, for that matter. So I say, keep the criteria consistent (or better yet, nonrestrictive) for all offhand adjectives.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 3:13 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:32 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:22 pm

Why wouldn't you include the rest of the story as part of your argument?
Because I also don't do that to label DB as funny. And neither do you, for that matter. So I say, keep the criteria consistent (or better yet, nonrestrictive) for all offhand adjectives.
Nonsense. It's not about being restrictive, it's about not dropping context. If someone asked me if I thought DB was funny, I would say yes. If they asked for more, I might say "it's more gag driven in the beginning, becomes more earnest over the course of the series, less reliant on overt gags, but still very quirky, until the final arc when it becomes balls out bonkers - pink bubble gum monster, kids who fight using weird exploding ghost attacks, and one of the heroes turns into a candy and still beats the hell out of the villain." If someone asked if it was dark, I would say "there are darker stretches, but overall, it's a fairly light hearted, silly show with a lot of action". That gives a more complete and accurate picture than a terse "It's fairly dark."

There's a hell of a lot more reason to think DB as funny than think it's even just "fairly dark". Toriyama names his characters after food and underwear. A wise old martial arts master thinks puns are the heighth of comedy.

Who would you be keeping the criteria consisent for? When I say DB is funny it's because I think throughout the run of the story, it's very funny. If someone asked me if Breaking Bad was funny, that would be different. I would assume they know it wasn't a comedy and were asking if there was enough levity. Saying "yes" wouldn't be enough. I would have to clarify my statement and say "It's a very dark show and there's enough humor in it and where it's appropriate to keep it entertaining, and not existentially depressing."

It's not about consistency, it's about context and assumptions.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 3:34 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:13 pm

If someone asked me if I thought DB was funny, I would say yes.
Your answer is just that. Your answer. It's not the answer.

If someone asked if it was dark, I would say "there are darker stretches, but overall, it's a fairly light hearted, silly show with a lot of action".
It's wrong to say it's "fairly" dark. But we can say it's "fairly" light hearted. Got it.

And Buu is not actually made of bubble gum. Stop being deliberately misleading.

There's a hell of a lot more reason to think DB as funny than think it's even just "fairly dark".
Well like I said before, I see DB's humor and darkness as a sort of dichotomy. Neither overrides the other. Quite the opposite.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 5:02 pm

Your answer is just that. Your answer. It's not the answer.
And you may not want to hear this, but your answer is wrong. If you don't take into consideration the entirety of the work, your opinion is worthless. What about the portion of the story that's literally a gag manga? What about the arcs that are adventures with heavy doses of humor? Do you consider the Red Ribbon Army arc to be a dark story? Your entire argument is predicated on the intentionally darker arcs. It might be more accurate to say "your mileage may vary, but Toriyama intended DB to be an action-comedy."
Stop being deliberately misleading.
Saying DB is dark and only giving examples from arcs that are deliberately darker is misleading.
It's wrong to say it's "fairly" dark. But we can say it's "fairly" light hearted. Got it.
If you're going to resort to sarcasm, then I'm gonna call this quits. I wasn't saying you have to agree that it's lighthearted, just saying it's a statement encompasses the whole story. You may not agree with the conclusion but at the very least it's honest because it doesn't discount the rest of the story.
see DB's humor and darkness as a sort of dichotomy. Neither overrides the other. Quite the opposite.
I agree in certain arcs, however, how could you possibly claim that during lighter stories like the tournament arcs, the first storyline which is pretty much a parody, or the Red Ribbon Army arc where he does things like have Goku make a ninja land ass first on a bo staff?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 5:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:02 pm

If you don't take into consideration the entirety of the work, your opinion is worthless.
But I did take into consideration the entirety of the work.

What about the portion of the story that's literally a gag manga?
So you admit that it's a "portion".

What about the arcs that are adventures with heavy doses of humor?
Describing the humor as "doses" actually implies that the story is not intrinsically humorous.

Do you consider the Red Ribbon Army arc to be a dark story?

Your entire argument is predicated on the intentionally darker arcs.
Why is it okay for you to cite gag arcs, but I can't cite dark arcs?

I wasn't saying you have to agree that it's lighthearted, just saying it's a statement encompasses the whole story.
But it doesn't. There's entire arcs that have very minimal humor and are rather serious and dark.

I agree in certain arcs, however, how could you possibly claim that during lighter stories like the tournament arcs, the first storyline which is pretty much a parody, or the Red Ribbon Army arc where he does things like have Goku make a ninja land ass first on a bo staff?
How can you possibly claim that dark arcs like the Frieza saga, King Piccolo, Zamasu, Cell arc where he does things like melt innocent people from the inside as light-hearted?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 5:38 pm

But I did take into consideration the entirety of the work.
But your argument doesn't. It doesn't even touch on it.
Why is it okay for you to cite gag arcs, but I can't cite dark arcs?
I didn't claim that, and I don't know how you can honestly claim that's what I wrote. I said you have to take it ALL into account. It seems like you believe that while there are a couple of arcs that are more humorous in nature, the darker stories take up a more significant portion. If that's a fair statement, why not say that?! Why limit your examples to notably darker arcs. By the way, they are notable because they aren't the norm.
How can you possibly claim that dark arcs like the Frieza saga, King Piccolo, Zamasu, Cell arc where he does things like melt innocent people from the inside as light-hearted?
We're done. If you just knock down strawmen time and time again, this has become more trouble than it's worth. My fault for allowing this to go on for so long before figuring it out.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 5:51 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:38 pm

But your argument doesn't. It doesn't even touch on it.
My argument is like yours. DB has portions of darkness, seriousness etc... and I say it's fairly dark. DB has portions of light-hearted humor and you say it's humorous.

I didn't claim that, and I don't know how you can honestly claim that's what I wrote.
You're basically implying it. I can't say that DB is fairly dark based on its dark arcs. But you can say it's humorous and light-hearted based on it's light-hearted arcs.

It's perfectly okay for you to not consider the dark arcs for your argument, yet I have to consider the light-hearted arcs for mine.

It seems like you believe that while there are a couple of arcs that are more humorous in nature, the darker stories take up a more significant portion. If that's a fair statement, why not say that?!
Because that was never my argument. I have no idea where you got that from.

We're done. If you just knock down strawmen time and time again, this has become more trouble than it's worth.
*Sigh* My general point is, DB has a whole has portions of darkness, seriousness as well as portions of light-heartedness and humor. Yet it's unacceptable to say it's generally the former, but acceptable to say it's generally the latter.

Why?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 30, 2019 6:06 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:51 pm
*Sigh* My general point is, DB has a whole has portions of darkness, seriousness as well as portions of light-heartedness and humor. Yet it's unacceptable to say it's generally the former, but acceptable to say it's generally the latter.

Why?
It’s really not generally the former. It’s overall a pretty silly martial arts story where the main character is a complete goof. The darkest parts of the series are the Bardock and Trunks specials, and neither of those stories even featured Goku in any significant capacity. Toriyama doesn’t really do well with serious stories.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 6:17 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:06 pm

It’s overall a pretty silly martial arts story where the main character is a complete goof.
I don't think I'd ever describe characters getting beaten to a bloody pulp as silly martial arts. Main character being a goof, doesn't mean the content of his setting isn't dark.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Nokra » Thu May 30, 2019 6:53 pm

Its hard to find a show dark or even serious when there are 3 sets of dragonballs, each more powerful than the last just waiting around to be used. The History Of Trunks special was the only exception where the show was dark and there was tension/consequences because the dragonballs were gone and namek was out of reach.

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