DB's ending

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sintzu
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DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Wed May 29, 2019 9:25 pm

Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo's Batman run is coming to an end with the Last knight on Earth story arc. When asked why they're moving away from Batman, Snyder said that he wanted to leave it on a high note. Capullo added to that, saying he didn't want their version to be another property that went on a season too long and ends up with fans hating it. They both said they want to try new things instead of doing one thing forever which they could on Batman. They also pointed out that they will eventually burn out which will show in their work, something they both want to avoid.

My question in regards to DB is that do you think Toriyama and the other DB creators should've done the same thing ? Do you think they should've used their current ideas on a new series instead of bringing back DB 20 years after its original ending ? Or do you believe that DB should just go on until people stop caring about it ?

This can also apply to the original manga as Torishima thought Toriyama should've ended things earlier to do something completely new.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:39 pm

Absolutely. they have to let it end.

IMO Dragon Ball died with Resurrection F and shouldve never started this full reboot (BoG was fine as a one-and-done movie) but thats beside the point.

The world will probably reach Dragon Ball burn out again, and sooner rather than later imo. Once Toriyama retires and Nozawa retires, that'll be it I think. (While I do think Toriyama is holding modern DB back in many areas, his involvement has been the main selling point of DBS from the beginning, and once thats gone I'm not sure how itll hold up.)

Also, I dont want Dragon Ball to become another Detective Conan or Crayon Shin-chan with like 1500+ episodes

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Chuquita » Wed May 29, 2019 10:48 pm

Finding a way to battle the power creep and restoring tension are the biggest problems I think DBS has at the moment.
  • Beerus and Whis are essentially the Mom and Dad in the room full of kids and as long as they're casually hanging out with Goku and friends then nobody's in any real danger.
  • The Omni Kings are also Goku's friends; when you're on good terms with the highest deities around nothing bad's gonna happen to you.
  • Even if things somehow do go pear-shaped we've still got super dragon balls.
  • In order to truly restore tension Super needs to reach and pass EoZ. However a lot of the characters have less youthful/less marketable designs in EoZ. Unfortunately we're stuck with those designs because if Toriyama were to change/update them it would impact the whole "is dbs canon?" thing.
  • Trying to find regular strong opponents is becoming increasingly difficult as Goku and friends become stronger themselves. At some point you'd either need to ignore the power creep or start relying on antagonists who aren't about plain strength, but have some other method of attack.
  • Leave Earth. Take the characters off-world to somewhere they've never been before where they have to learn the ins and outs of wherever they're taken to and encounter new opponents there. We spent almost all of Super on Earth when there's entire universes to explore. Let's leave that comfort zone and explore new worlds with Goku and friends.

So yeah. I think they could conceivably continue it, but in order for at least me personally to find it engaging they need to change up what they're doing now. If they're content to simply keep going through the motions and not taking any risks/not bothering to create tension then I'd prefer they end it. The dbs manga is trying, but I think the Moro Arc as of me typing this is also still playing it way too safe.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by Jord » Wed May 29, 2019 10:54 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:48 pm
Finding a way to battle the power creep and restoring tension are the biggest problems I think DBS has at the moment.
  • Beerus and Whis are essentially the Mom and Dad in the room full of kids and as long as they're casually hanging out with Goku and friends then nobody's in any real danger.
That is so true
The whole "Whis reverses time in order to give the heroes a second try" in Resurrection F was the biggest cop out in DBS. All sense of tension was gone after that monent.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 29, 2019 11:13 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:39 pm
Absolutely. they have to let it end.

IMO Dragon Ball died with Resurrection F and shouldve never started this full reboot (BoG was fine as a one-and-done movie) but thats beside the point.
More or less this.

BoG was fine as a one-and-done treat. We didn’t need Resurrection F or Super.

Hell, I like Super Broli and we hardly needed that either.

Dragon Ball should have ended when Toriyama finished the manga the first time around.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 pm

Put me firmly in the "Dragon Ball should have ended when it ended" camp as well, and for all of the above reasons. My pet cause is that it has lost all sense of progression. It plays it safe. Time stands still. Everything more or less reverts to the status quo, which is really disheartening because original Dragon Ball never had a status quo. It was always changing. It was always growing. It was always evolving. This series is just spinning its wheels. It has in essence become an "adventure of the week" type of show, except that each adventure is broken up into a few dozen episodes. While the episodes themselves are still serialized, the overall stories feel very compartmentalized. What drew me into Dragon Ball in the first place was its sense of growth. Dragon Ball Super just desperately wants to be marketable, and that means keeping the characters familiar and recognizable. That, to me, is death and stagnation, and it's resulted in a very tepid, very boring series.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by MyVisionity » Thu May 30, 2019 12:25 am

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Ball ended back in the nineties. This revival material is a separate entity.

It could end on a high note or just keep pushing forward forever, but it won't hold any significance in relation to the original.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 9:32 am

I agree that every story needs an ending and DB has several good ones. Hell, once I realized the thematic significance of the manga's ending, I've since changed my tune on it. I like it quite a bit. And not to say good work hasn't been done since, but as others have pointed out, the story is just spinning its wheels at this point. I don't inherently mind a show or movie series that is intent on maintaining its status quo, but that comes down to expectations. If I know up front what the show is, I can set expectations accordingly. Where the problem comes in is when a story is all about growth and progression suddenly stops to tread water, that's when it bothers me.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by coola » Thu May 30, 2019 11:40 am

What i dont like, are so many retcons that were not needed to, and how they play it safe, so many plots are taken straight of fanfics i ve read in 2001-2002
- Evil Goku clone with Evil Kaioshin
- Freeza getting back and get as strong as post Buu Saga characters for BS reason.
- Future Trunks and Broly come back (And i know he is not same Broly as one in DBZ Movies, but then why make him into Broly to begin with?)

And then we have over use of character like Bardock, they completely missed point of what made him special, he was supposed to be this Saiyan pest killed by Freeza, who didnt even know his name. And then we had that sequel special, that masked Bardock in Heroes...
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Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu May 30, 2019 11:47 am

coola wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:40 am
and Broly come back (And i know he is not same Broly as one in DBZ Movies, but then why make him into Broly to begin with?)

..
Because Broli is incredibly popular character?

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Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Thu May 30, 2019 11:54 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:47 am
coola wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:40 am
and Broly come back (And i know he is not same Broly as one in DBZ Movies, but then why make him into Broly to begin with?)

..
Because Broli is incredibly popular character?
That's the problem, the decisions being made are based on popularity, not quality.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Nokra » Thu May 30, 2019 2:08 pm

As long as I'm entertained idc what they do.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Gligarman » Thu May 30, 2019 4:59 pm

Nokra wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:08 pm
As long as I'm entertained idc what they do.
Ditto. I'm enjoying the hell out of the DBS manga so as long as Toriyama still enjoys writing it I'll stick with it.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 5:12 pm

I get that approach and I sympathize, but a great ending, hell, even only a good ending is worth its weight in gold.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu May 30, 2019 5:20 pm

sintzu wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:54 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:47 am
coola wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:40 am
and Broly come back (And i know he is not same Broly as one in DBZ Movies, but then why make him into Broly to begin with?)

..
Because Broli is incredibly popular character?
That's the problem, the decisions being made are based on popularity, not quality.
Exactly. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen “which villain should return next?!” As if rehashing even more stuff is supposed to be a good thing.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu May 30, 2019 5:31 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:48 pm
Unfortunately we're stuck with those designs because if Toriyama were to change/update them it would impact the whole "is dbs canon?" thing.
Not really. Established designs have been changed. Canon discussions are (fortunately) not a factor for such decisions.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Cold Skin » Thu May 30, 2019 5:33 pm

Any ending can wait.
Right now, we're getting new memorable moments, new characters, new forms, new sagas, new weekly/monthly excitement, all of it being crafted or supervised by Toriyama himself which is something we couldn't even dare to hope a few years ago.

We're lucky to have that kind of continuation.
I wouldn't have wanted a world where the Toriyama-crafted best form was Super Saiyan 3, where the ultimate villain was still Kid Boo, etc... just like it's been when I was only a kid playing SNES.

I'm so glad we have a new God hierarchy system, new characters, whole universes to explore, new mysteries to solve as weeks go by, new tournaments, old characters being sometimes back with a new light shed on them (Future Trunks, Freeza, C-17, Broly...).
Our favorite characters continue to live new, unexpected adventures! We even get the most impressive DB movie to date!

If it had ended before, no Super Saiyan God, no Super Saiyan Blue, no Super Saiyan girls, no villain believing he's the hero, no time-stopping hitman, no Ultra Instinct (last time we saw such a "cold killer" exciting behavior for our heroes was with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and they finally recaptured that feeling), no Goku-Freeza stunning duo, no weekly "TV game" "watch who's eliminated this week" battle royale...

We have plenty of great elements being invented, it would have been a shame not having it and STILL being stuck with what happened way back in the 90s with no new characters, settings, events, forms...

The ending should be good, but it can wait. There's still plenty to explore and create for years to come.
These last years, it's been a childhood dream back on and I'll willingly have that dream for more years to come.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 5:45 pm

This I don't agree with. It wouldn't be a shame if all we had was the story as it was back in the 90s. That's quite a bit and you wouldn't know what you were missing if the story didn't continue. Are new forms really all that great? It's another transformation we've seen plenty of times before. Bringing Freeza back to become Lord Zedd isn't worth it. I love great stories and it can be a shame to see them end, but hopefully the story is compelling and ends on a high note and we can be thankful for the time we did have with it. Better that than see a story overstay its welcome. I love Supernatural and still think the show has plenty of worthwhile stories and characters, but it should've ended years ago. it's not nearly as good as it once was. There are occasionally great moments, but not with the frequency the show had in the first five seasons.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by Lucky_Deity » Thu May 30, 2019 5:59 pm

Cold Skin wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Any ending can wait.
Right now, we're getting new memorable moments, new characters, new forms, new sagas, new weekly/monthly excitement, all of it being crafted or supervised by Toriyama himself which is something we couldn't even dare to hope a few years ago.

We're lucky to have that kind of continuation.
I wouldn't have wanted a world where the Toriyama-crafted best form was Super Saiyan 3, where the ultimate villain was still Kid Boo, etc... just like it's been when I was only a kid playing SNES.

I'm so glad we have a new God hierarchy system, new characters, whole universes to explore, new mysteries to solve as weeks go by, new tournaments, old characters being sometimes back with a new light shed on them (Future Trunks, Freeza, C-17, Broly...).
Our favorite characters continue to live new, unexpected adventures! We even get the most impressive DB movie to date!

If it had ended before, no Super Saiyan God, no Super Saiyan Blue, no Super Saiyan girls, no villain believing he's the hero, no time-stopping hitman, no Ultra Instinct (last time we saw such a "cold killer" exciting behavior for our heroes was with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and they finally recaptured that feeling), no Goku-Freeza stunning duo, no weekly "TV game" "watch who's eliminated this week" battle royale...

We have plenty of great elements being invented, it would have been a shame not having it and STILL being stuck with what happened way back in the 90s with no new characters, settings, events, forms...

The ending should be good, but it can wait. There's still plenty to explore and create for years to come.
These last years, it's been a childhood dream back on and I'll willingly have that dream for more years to come.
This ^
I can see where people are coming from but it's not like that ending is gone, if people don't like the new stuff, pretend it never happened, separate them. I got into Dragon Ball very late, around the time of Battle of Gods / Resurrection 'F' and I'm so glad the series is still going strong, despite what people think of Super as what I've experienced watching Super weekly was what people back in the days of DB / DBZ and to a lesser extent GT would've felt and it's great. Plus on the video game side of things as well, all these new stories, characters and forms not in the main series, though fan-service, I love it just for that and is there just to be enjoyed. Heroes is one of the best things to happen.
Also, speaking about endings, though GT is well... GT, one of the best things to come from it, was the ending, it was done better than the EoZ imo and A Hero's Legacy was a nice epilogue of sorts, albeit, a 100 year time-skip epilogue. The original ending is still good though and will always exist even if it's re-written. Like the original Bardock special, it's still there to enjoy even if it did get re-written in Minus and Broly, they still kept some of the spirit in there, wish we did see more of it in Broly though.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 pm

These days, I find myself wishing that Battle of Gods would’ve just been a one time reunion film, rather than the beginning of an era of endless Dragon Ball related content.

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