Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[Piccolo_Daima]

Piccolo Junior definitely shares some (if not all) memories of the previous Piccolo; he remembers Goku's one uninjured arm being enough to take him down, so Junior makes sure to immobilize all of Goku's limbs.

It seems I never liked that idea, and so I threw it away from my memories because I really don't remember that. Anyway, despite that, sharing memories still doesn't necessarily make two individuals the same person.

If Piccolo Jr and Daimao aren't the same being, then Kami would have died when Daimao was killed by Goku.

Or, when Piccolo Daimaoh died, Kami's connection passed onto Piccolo's existence right away, allowing him to continue to live. And since we're in the realm of "sharing memories" possibilities, this can very well be what happened.

As I said before and you ignored because you have no arguments to refute it, Piccolo Jr a lot of times talked about Daimao not like his father, but like Daimao was himself.

Why did Piccolo tell Goku "The last time you beat me because you were a little boy who got lucky"? If they're not the same, Piccolo Jr would have said" you beat my father because you were a little boy who got lucky"

Also, Piccolo always says "When Kami and I were one being...." why did he never say "When Kami and my father were one being..."?

And Piccolo Jr says he's the King of Demons, if he was just Daimao's son, he would say he's the prince of demons or something like that, like Vegeta does. Vegeta says he's the prince of sayans, not the king of sayans.

[Cold Skin]

I do remember that when Piccolo goes to God for them to fuse permanently, God says something like "Me and you - or rather your father", apparently feeling that need to distinguish them as a different entity. If Piccolo was just Demon King Piccolo in a new body, he would just stick with the "me and you".

I guess Piccolo is not Demon King Piccolo's exact copy (Nameks don't exactly clone themselves when spawning an egg if we judge by their people), but he does carry all of the memories of his father, as vivid as if he had lived them himself, and talking as such sometimes.

I also think that if he was the direct copy of his father rather than his own being, it would show in his dialogue as a kid. He wouldn't be like he's trying to assert his father's wishes saying "I hate peace, I'll kill my father's assassin!" and all, he would say something as if it was directly the adult father who survived and who was speaking, like "that little brat!! I'll get him for what he's just done to me and resume my plan!!" and not having a dialogue that seems more like "I'll follow the steps of my father, I swear"...

Basically, if I imagine Demon King Piccolo and the current Piccolo facing each other due to time travel, I think they would talk like father and son, not like "I can't believe in the future I become that sort of disgusting good guy" but rather like "this is what my progeny becomes, instead of carrying my will?". When spitting out the egg, the demon wouldn't say "you will carry on my will" but "I will carry on in that new body". He does say "My son... Someday... You'll avenge your father...".

So yeah, I think there's a blur because Piccolo has memories of his father as if he lived through all of it, but they are ultimately like father and son - even if Piccolo wanted to assert himself as the direct continuation of his demonic father back then.
Had he survived and been directly in the place of his son, it's hard to imagine the original Demon King Piccolo could have become what Piccolo is today.

Our Piccolo is a reincarnation, a "new version" of the original, but not the same. Damn, it's hard to explain I guess.
It's more of a continuation than with a usual son due to memories, but not just a direct copy that would be the exact same person either.

[KBABZ]

and then right as he was dying he transferred his memories and his essence,

What? When did that happen? I've just read the manga to make sure and that didn't happen at all. Piccolo Daimaoh just asked Piccolo to avenge him (it was pretty much the same thing Bardock did in the TV Special).

Correct, he gave his son the mission verbally after spitting him out miles and miles. Jr. instinctively knew the mission given to him by his father/past self, Daimao's verbalization is more for us the audience than it is for Jr.

Considering that Uub is a reincarnation of Majin Buu without any of the evil or memories of his previous life, I don't think Piccolo Junior being "less evil" than Daimao means they're not the same.

You know as well as I do that that's a completely different method of reincarnation. Uub's soul is Buu's sent back by King Yenma and cleansed of negativity (or something like that). Daimao reincarnating as Jr. is him transferring his memories and personality, and had no involvement with Yenma. Uub isn't Kid Buu in the same way Jr. is linked with Daimao.

Besides, why didn't Kami die when Goku killed Daimao? Goku once said new Piccolo was packed in with "everything" of the old one, so it's not like they're a regular parent and child.

If Piccolo Jr and Daimao aren't the same being, then Kami would have died when Daimao was killed by Goku.

First of all, the reincarnation transfer whatever happened a full arc before Toriyama even came up with the idea that their link would get rid of the Dragon Balls: that was only invented for the end of the 23rd TB to add extra tension to the fight between Goku and Jr. Not only that, but it takes a good half a minute or so before Daimao eventually actually dies. Are you saying that for that period of time there are two Piccolo Daimaos?

Secondly, I'm not saying that there isn't a strong link between Daimao and Jr. Obviously there is, and a transfer of memories and personality did happen. But the fact of the matter is that Jr. behaves in ways that Daimao is utterly incapable of. Kami himself notes this when Jr. first abandons Gohan in the wilds during the Saiyan Arc. From the Japanese subtitles:

Anime: And yet, since Raditz went to the Next World, this is clearly not the Piccolo of old.
Manga: The fact that Raditz is in the underworld means that Piccolo is clearly different from before...

Also Jr doesn't have the hook nose that Daimao does, if that counts for anything. And he initially goes by, well, Jr., which heavily implies some sort of hereditary relationship, rather than using something that would have better fit the old King.

I also think that if he was the direct copy of his father rather than his own being, it would show in his dialogue as a kid. He wouldn't be like he's trying to assert his father's wishes saying "I hate peace, I'll kill my father's assassin!" and all, he would say something as if it was directly the adult father who survived and who was speaking, like "that little brat!! I'll get him for what he's just done to me and resume my plan!!" and not having a dialogue that seems more like "I'll follow the steps of my father, I swear"...

Correct! When he declares himself King Piccolo reincarnated, not half a minute later he says he'll continue his father's plans for world domination, as opposed to "my" plans.

[MasenkoHA]

First of all, the reincarnation transfer whatever happened a full arc before Toriyama even came up with the idea that their link would get rid of the Dragon Balls: that was only invented for the end of the 23rd TB to add extra tension to the fight between Goku and Jr. Not only that, but it takes a good half a minute or so before Daimao eventually actually dies. Are you saying that for that period of time there are two Piccolo Daimaos

First of all, there’s no reason to believe the Piccolo/Kami are linked bit was some sort of dramatic storytelling device Toriyama came up with at the last second while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. Especially since Toriyama was already setting up that
arc by having Piccolo Daimou rebirth himself as an egg
And introducing Kami as his good half.

Piccolo Jr was still considered one half of the same being as Kami. Ergo Piccolo Daimaou=Piccolo JR (albeit less evil...somehow). Kami didn’t die because Piccolo Daimou managed to reincarnate himself as he was dying to avoid death.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

First of all, the reincarnation transfer whatever happened a full arc before Toriyama even came up with the idea that their link would get rid of the Dragon Balls: that was only invented for the end of the 23rd TB to add extra tension to the fight between Goku and Jr. Not only that, but it takes a good half a minute or so before Daimao eventually actually dies. Are you saying that for that period of time there are two Piccolo Daimaos

First of all, there’s no reason to believe the Piccolo/Kami are linked bit was some sort of dramatic storytelling device Toriyama came up with at the last second while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. Especially since Toriyama was already setting up that
arc by having Piccolo Daimou rebirth himself as an egg
And introducing Kami as his good half.

Piccolo Jr was still considered one half of the same being as Kami. Ergo Piccolo Daimou=Piccolo JR (albeit less evil...somehow). Kami didn’t die because Piccolo Daimou managed to reincarnate himself as he was dying to avoid death.

I liken that to the part where he and Kami in disguise as Shen/Hero speak to themselves during their match in that weird alien language of which only they can understand while nobody else watching them at the tournament could, and it was only stated well after the fact in later interviews and such that what they were speaking was in fact the Namekian language. Of course Toriyama was still roughly another year or so removed from introducing Piccolo's species (or planet and culture at large) in the manga and another still before it was introduced proper in the anime.

[MasenkoHA]

Yes. I know Dragon Ball isn’t the most well thought out and carefully planned out story and much of it falls under “making it up as I go along” category of writing but there was still some semblance of Toriyama planning ahead for the next arc. Piccolo and Kami’s alien convo at the 23rd Budokai was another case of Toriyama setting things up for the next arc

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Yes. I know Dragon Ball isn’t the most well thought out and carefully planned out story and much of it falls under “making it up as I go along” category of writing but there was still some semblance of Toriyama planning ahead for the next arc. Piccolo and Kami’s alien convo at the 23rd Budokai was another case of Toriyama setting things up for the next arc

Same thing with the eventual reveal that Goku was in fact not originally from Earth but actually a Saiyan who came there as a young child, i mean there were indeed some obvious hints that he wasn't exactly a normal being prior to that point but it was definitely an unexpected thing that nobody saw coming when that part first appeared in the manga back in 1988 during it's original serialization in Weekly Shonen Jump. Of course, that again shows Toriyama's thing for coming up with story elements on the fly by the seat of his pants as he was going along with drawing the series out at such a fast pace week after week for just about 10 years.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Correct, he gave his son the mission verbally after spitting him out miles and miles. Jr. instinctively knew the mission given to him by his father/past self, Daimao's verbalization is more for us the audience than it is for Jr.


You know as well as I do that that's a completely different method of reincarnation. Uub's soul is Buu's sent back by King Yenma and cleansed of negativity (or something like that). Daimao reincarnating as Jr. is him transferring his memories and personality, and had no involvement with Yenma. Uub isn't Kid Buu in the same way Jr. is linked with Daimao.


First of all, the reincarnation transfer whatever happened a full arc before Toriyama even came up with the idea that their link would get rid of the Dragon Balls: that was only invented for the end of the 23rd TB to add extra tension to the fight between Goku and Jr. Not only that, but it takes a good half a minute or so before Daimao eventually actually dies. Are you saying that for that period of time there are two Piccolo Daimaos?

Secondly, I'm not saying that there isn't a strong link between Daimao and Jr. Obviously there is, and a transfer of memories and personality did happen. But the fact of the matter is that Jr. behaves in ways that Daimao is utterly incapable of. Kami himself notes this when Jr. first abandons Gohan in the wilds during the Saiyan Arc. From the Japanese subtitles:

You keep ignoring this scene



Why was Daimao talking through Piccolo's Jr body? How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

[MasenkoHA]

How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

Why is this even a debate?

We were consistently reminded that Piccolo and Kami
are two halves of the same being

Piccolo Daimaou was created from the evil side of Kami.

They are all the same being. The father, the son, and the holy spirit. Only in this case the father is basically Satan.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Basically, if I imagine Demon King Piccolo and the current Piccolo facing each other due to time travel, I think they would talk like father and son, not like "I can't believe in the future I become that sort of disgusting good guy" but rather like "this is what my progeny becomes, instead of carrying my will?". When spitting out the egg, the demon wouldn't say "you will carry on my will" but "I will carry on in that new body". He does say "My son... Someday... You'll avenge your father...".

So yeah, I think there's a blur because Piccolo has memories of his father as if he lived through all of it, but they are ultimately like father and son - even if Piccolo wanted to assert himself as the direct continuation of his demonic father back then.
Had he survived and been directly in the place of his son, it's hard to imagine the original Demon King Piccolo could have become what Piccolo is today.

Our Piccolo is a reincarnation, a "new version" of the original, but not the same. Damn, it's hard to explain I guess.
It's more of a continuation than with a usual son due to memories, but not just a direct copy that would be the exact same person either.

In the Tournament 23 before Goku and Piccolo jr fought, Goku's friends asked Goku who was Jr, and Goku said: "Jr is King Piccolo"

Then Tien said: "But that's impossible, you exterminated him"

Chi chi: "This doesn't make any sense, didn't you kill King Piccolo and save the world?"

Goku; "Yes I killed him, but according to Kami the egg King Piccolo released contained his entire essence, and Jr hatched from that egg, so that's King Piccolo reincarnated."

Master Roshi:" No matter what we do, Piccolo always seems to return."


So it seems clear that Piccolo Jr is actualy Piccolo Daimao. Piccolo Jr softened up as the series advanced, but that was because of the influence of Nail and Kami, they're both namekians of pure hart, so that made Piccolo be more good and less evil.

[KBABZ]

First of all, there’s no reason to believe the Piccolo/Kami are linked bit was some sort of dramatic storytelling device Toriyama came up with at the last second while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. Especially since Toriyama was already setting up that
arc by having Piccolo Daimou rebirth himself as an egg
And introducing Kami as his good half.

Mm, you have a point there. You reminded me of the scene where Kami first reveals to Goku that Piccolo is alive. It's there that Kami covertly confides to Mr. Popo that since he and Piccolo (which at this point is referring to both individuals) are two halves of the same being, both will die if one does. So it's revealed at the conclusion of the Daimao arc, not that of the 23rd TB.

Piccolo Jr was still considered one half of the same being as Kami. Ergo Piccolo Daimaou=Piccolo JR (albeit less evil...somehow). Kami didn’t die because Piccolo Daimou managed to reincarnate himself as he was dying to avoid death.

I mean, I agree sort of, but I think Jr's capability to learn compassion means that he eventually develops into his own person that is distinct from Daimao. I don't think the Piccolo in the Android arc could at all be compared to Daimao. I think in the mind of Toriyama he evolved into his own distinct character through his turn via Gohan and the comradery with Goku.

You keep ignoring this scene



Why was Daimao talking through Piccolo's Jr body? How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

That's not at all how I interpreted this scene. For me, that meant that "oh hey that evil you thought you took care of? IT'S BACK THROUGH THIS GUY". It's kinda helped by the fact that both characters have identical VO in both English and Japanese. At the end of the day, for me that shot represented legacy, not Round 2.

So it seems clear that Piccolo Jr is actualy Piccolo Daimao. Piccolo Jr softened up as the series advanced, but that was because of the influence of Nail and Kami, they're both namekians of pure hart, so that made Piccolo be more good and less evil.

You have a very off interpretation of what reincarnation means. Just because you're reincarnated doesn't mean you're the same individual. If Winston Churchill was reincarnated into another person, he would not still be Winston Churchill, he'd be the new person. If I was reincarnated into a butterfly, am I still me, or would I be the butterfly?

[Piccolo_Daima]

In that scene I posted, Piccolo was telling Goku this" The last time you beat me because you got lucky, but this time I'm gonna beat you because I got much stronger"

So this means, they're the same person

At the same time though, eventually the manga itself starts treating Jr. as a different person when discussing Daimao.

He wasn't dormant, he was developing the Makankosappo to kill Goku, and he did finaly did it.

Yeah sure, but Piccolo uses the move only because it can stop Raditz. He had clearly already developed and perfected the move by the time Raditz arrives, and as we saw when they first met, Piccolo was hardly jumping out of his seat to kill Goku once and for all, and Goku is LITERALLY wrapped up in taking care of his son in a time of peace. No better time to strike, and yet he doesn't. Daimao would never have been so sloppy!

Piccolo stews for 5 years, plotting world domination.

Radditz appears and causes Piccolo to join forces reluctantly with Goku to defeat the common enemy.

Piccolo plans to go back to plotting world domination after this and is overjoyed when the opportunity presents itself to kill Goku and Radditz at the same time, especialy for killing Goku.

But then Radditz announces that two even stronger Saiyans will be arriving in a year.

Piccolo kidnaps Gohan with the intention of training him to be a temporary ally like he intended with Goku. Piccolo said that his plan was to beat the sayans, and then conquer the world.

[Piccolo_Daima]

You keep ignoring this scene



Why was Daimao talking through Piccolo's Jr body? How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

That's not at all how I interpreted this scene. For me, that meant that "oh hey that evil you thought you took care of? IT'S BACK THROUGH THIS GUY". It's kinda helped by the fact that both characters have identical VO in both English and Japanese. At the end of the day, for me that shot represented legacy, not Round 2.

Again you're ignoring what Piccolo was saying in that scene, Piccolo was telling goku: "The last time you beat me because you were a little boy who got lucky, but three years is a long time and I've grown stronger"

So Piccolo's words don't allow us to interpretate it in a different way, he is Piccolo Daimao, theyr'e the same being.

[KBABZ]

Piccolo stews for 5 years, plotting world domination.

I read it as "Piccolo waits for five years, develops move to kill Goku, doesn't use it".

Also why did you quote me in two separate posts??

[Piccolo_Daima]

Piccolo stews for 5 years, plotting world domination.

I read it as "Piccolo waits for five years, develops move to kill Goku, doesn't use it".

Also why did you quote me in two separate posts??

Funny how you're deflecting all the point because you have no arguments to refute it

[jjgp1112]

I always just looked at Piccolo Jr as DBs version of the anti Christ. He's not Piccolo Daimao...but he is him too. He has his soul but in a new, autonomous consciousness.

[Lionel]

Spoiler:

The above conversation suggests that Piccolo was already beginning to veer away from Daimou's sociopathic megalomania before he allied with Goku during the Saiyan arc. As far back as the 23rd tournament is what it sounds like to me when Piccolo started to change.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how he was different as we didn't see much of Piccolo Jr at the time outside of the tournament setting. Was it his willingness to acknowledge and use the institutions that humanity had set in place with the tournament that gave Goku this impression? When Piccolo Daimou was in the midst of vying for global domination he just seized the throne after regaining his youth. Piccolo Jr went through the motions of signing up for a human proctored tournament and he even did what he could to abide by its rules and regulations up until Goku forced him into a corner. You could argue that it demonstrates more discretion on his part with an ability to respect man-made procedures, even when he's not at the helm of them like his father was during his brief reign as king.

[Koitsukai]

In DB they treat Piccolo Jr as if he was the same namek Goku killed, but in Z you never get the feeling that they were the same person, more like an estranged son, or a part of him but not really him. They don't even look the same, it seems like they actually forgot they were suppose to be the same fella, I know DB Piccolo Jr(4 years old) should look different to Dai Ma O but they never share any resemblance as the years and decades go by, in Z, GT, Super, manga, movies, or even Toriyama's ilustrations. Dai Ma O got his youth back and looked more like others nameks than Piccolo.

[PremiumSalt]

You keep ignoring this scene



Why was Daimao talking through Piccolo's Jr body? How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

That's not at all how I interpreted this scene. For me, that meant that "oh hey that evil you thought you took care of? IT'S BACK THROUGH THIS GUY". It's kinda helped by the fact that both characters have identical VO in both English and Japanese. At the end of the day, for me that shot represented legacy, not Round 2.

Not to be pedantic, but the bold is not true. In the Japanese version, Piccolo Daimao is voiced by Takeshi Aono while Piccolo Jr. is voiced by Toshio Furukawa.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

You keep ignoring this scene



Why was Daimao talking through Piccolo's Jr body? How the hell could he do that if they're not the same being?

That's not at all how I interpreted this scene. For me, that meant that "oh hey that evil you thought you took care of? IT'S BACK THROUGH THIS GUY". It's kinda helped by the fact that both characters have identical VO in both English and Japanese. At the end of the day, for me that shot represented legacy, not Round 2.

Not to be pedantic, but the bold is not true. In the Japanese version, Piccolo Daimao is voiced by Takeshi Aono while Piccolo Jr. is voiced by Toshio Furukawa.

Not sure if he's confused over that specific part as pictured there where Jr's voice fades into King Piccolo's own briefly in a kind of symbolic meaning of "You may have killed me, but my offspring shall finish what i started", or he is thinking of the FUNi DB dub where Chris Sabat voiced both of them even though the performances aren't exactly the same.