Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:09 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:26 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:11 am
17 and Gohan being stronger than SSGod is a given, because they can fight Top and SSBlue for a while.
So 17 and Gohan could put up a fight against Beerus? Strength =/= Fighting Skill. Maybe I'm forgetting things but I don't recall 17 or Gohan going one on one with Toppo in a blow for blow battle.
Only if Beerus supress himself as he did against SSGod. In a battle for survival, there is no reason to assume Top was going easy on them. Obviously, they weren’t matched with Top, but they weren’t far behind either.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:28 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:40 am
He did oneshot them, they were knocked unconcious instantly. If you oneshot someone it doesn't mean that they have to die.
If we agree that one-shotting is killing or defeating in one shot, then he didn't, he just knocked them down and they were never unconcious, just re-watched it, don't know where you got that. Anyway he is not stronger than before. A stronger character would one-shot already defeated weakened characters but even the time machine survived.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes. But some episodes before Berserker was stronger than SSBlue. Kale’s new form was overpowered by SSGod.
Ok, you realise that you are purposelly discarding statements based on latter feats from characters who claim the opposite of what you are saying, right? whether we like it or not, they explained that Goku wasn't really going all out even though he uses SSB for almost everything even against Krillin.
We could say the manga did the same thing but better, explaining Kale reached her peak and then started losing steam. She is/was blue tier in the manga. In the anime they nerfed it and we have to live with it, they literally gave her a stronger form and placed her where Toei believed she belonged.

SSBlue Goku did better against the same attack from Jiren than Kale did, and after taking the most damage he ever took in his entire life and from a stronger version of Jiren, Kale was one-shotted by an almost eye-closed Jiren.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1137
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:28 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:40 am
He did oneshot them, they were knocked unconcious instantly. If you oneshot someone it doesn't mean that they have to die.
If we agree that one-shotting is killing or defeating in one shot, then he didn't, he just knocked them down and they were never unconcious, just re-watched it, don't know where you got that. Anyway he is not stronger than before. A stronger character would one-shot already defeated weakened characters but even the time machine survived.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes. But some episodes before Berserker was stronger than SSBlue. Kale’s new form was overpowered by SSGod.
Ok, you realise that you are purposelly discarding statements based on latter feats from characters who claim the opposite of what you are saying, right? whether we like it or not, they explained that Goku wasn't really going all out even though he uses SSB for almost everything even against Krillin.
We could say the manga did the same thing but better, explaining Kale reached her peak and then started losing steam. She is/was blue tier in the manga. In the anime they nerfed it and we have to live with it, they literally gave her a stronger form and placed her where Toei believed she belonged.

SSBlue Goku did better against the same attack from Jiren than Kale did, and after taking the most damage he ever took in his entire life and from a stronger version of Jiren, Kale was one-shotted by an almost eye-closed Jiren.
I am not saying he was stronger than before, that's why I asked that question, because I wasn't sure. And yes they were knocked unconcious, check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHEIURxEiBA

As you can see at the beginning they were lying down and barely got up. And he did defeat them in one shot, they were overwhelmed completely by his ki blasts and after that they never even tried to fight him again.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:28 pm
Ok, you realise that you are purposelly discarding statements based on latter feats from characters who claim the opposite of what you are saying, right? whether we like it or not, they explained that Goku wasn't really going all out even though he uses SSB for almost everything even against Krillin.
We could say the manga did the same thing but better, explaining Kale reached her peak and then started losing steam. She is/was blue tier in the manga. In the anime they nerfed it and we have to live with it, they literally gave her a stronger form and placed her where Toei believed she belonged.

SSBlue Goku did better against the same attack from Jiren than Kale did, and after taking the most damage he ever took in his entire life and from a stronger version of Jiren, Kale was one-shotted by an almost eye-closed Jiren.
I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. There is nothing saying Goku was holding back against Kale and the scene is very easy to understand. She walked through his kamehameha without getting any damage. Goku only did better against Jiren’s attack later because he used kaioken to prevent being ringed out.

superfan2024
Regular
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:05 pm

Wait, so if i'm not mistaken, Kid Boo had God ki (or at least God power) this entire time?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:15 pm

superfan2024 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:05 pm
Wait, so if i'm not mistaken, Kid Boo had God ki (or at least God power) this entire time?
That’s right. He took the god power from Grand Kaioshin after splitting.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:35 pm

Did Pure Evil Boo also have God Power?

That was the Boo he split with.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:46 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm
I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. There is nothing saying Goku was holding back against Kale and the scene is very easy to understand. She walked through his kamehameha without getting any damage. Goku only did better against Jiren’s attack later because he used kaioken to prevent being ringed out.
He took a way stronger version of that attack (Jiren powered up before facing him and even scared Beerus and everyone else there) at pointblack and then went KKx20, he used small bursts before, yes, but considering Jiren powered up to face the only rival Belmod apparently "warned" him about, Goku as a regular SSB was already fighting a much stronger monster than Kale did, before KK. He was losing but it wasn't a piece of cake like with Kale, he knocked the SS out of her with just one shot almost with his arms crossed and heavily supressed(if we call 109 supressed Jiren then 100 Jiren should be Asleep Jiren), Kale lasted 0.3 seconds against an even more supressed Jiren.

Goku said that line about using more power and stuff but I guess I'm repeating it without much thought and might as well discard it for good, but anyway, we have seen Goku use SSB against weaker rivals, Gohan being one, 17 another and we now can safely say they are not as strong as SSBlue, and the show itself later on stated that a stronger Kale wasn't in that realm either. Even Krillin managed to hold SSBlue's KameHH for a while, and pushed it a little! Krillin!
That scene that messes everything up was nothing more than a fanservice recalling original Broly movie, so it's not even a normal thing in the story, Kale was not doing that to every blue tier like she did in the manga, there it makes sense, but in the anime it's clearly out of context and is contradicted by latter events and statements. Really, if we take it out, then all makes perfect sense.
Hell, Kefla needed SS to face a tired SSBlue Goku, that would mean Berserk Kale is equally strong as SS Kefla. But well, the characters stated enough, I'm not going to be the one correcting them.

In-universe, if Kale is SSBlue tier, then why didn't she beat tired SSGod Goku while being assisted by SS Caulifla? and why did Kefla needed SS if Kale alone can do it?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:38 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:46 pm
He took a way stronger version of that attack (Jiren powered up before facing him and even scared Beerus and everyone else there) at pointblack and then went KKx20
Goku took the attack but only managed to escape from it with kaioken. Kale couldn’t put a fight, because she wasn’t prepared for Jiren. Goku was taking care, which explains why he faired better. It doesn’t have to do only with power.

In another hand, despite using SSBlue in other instances in this arc, Kale was the first person that overpowered him. This scene plays out similarly in the manga, so I don’t understand why consider this instance off the curve and consider that one in which she is overpowered by SSGod as the norm.

So, to answer your question. That Goku vs. Caulifla & Kale fight didn’t make sense. Berserker is supposed to be as powerful as Kafla. The only way to make sense of it is assuming Kale’s new form is only stronger than the one she had before she went Berserker.

ankokudaishogun
Regular
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:14 pm

or, you know.
Goku favoring skipping SS3 and SSG and go Blue for anything stronger than SS2 unless he's showcasing or saving stamina.

Goku underestimating Berserker Kale(or at least her continuous growth in power) and Holding Back(C) too much would explain everything much more cleanly

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:27 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:14 pm
Goku underestimating Berserker Kale(or at least her continuous growth in power) and Holding Back(C) too much would explain everything much more cleanly
If Goku really wanted to hold back that much, he would have used a form weaker than SSBlue. It doesn’t make sense that SSGod would be stronger than SSBlue, even if he is not at full power, he wasn’t tired. And more importantly, he had no reason to hold back after seeing his kamehameha being overpowered. Why thinking this explanation suddenly solve this problem?

Block88
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:15 am

I don’t see the big issue here kale isn’t blue level goku didn’t care about how jiren one shotted her despite her rampage nor cared at all about how she had him helpless

Jiren intervening doesn’t mean much considering he intervene with maji kayo whobhd dyspo helpless yet we know hello isn’t blue tier.

A weakened ssjg goku stomped her in a much stronger form.

Like the best you can argue her being there but got recton so that’s what will take

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am

The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:52 am

I wonder how strong Moro actually is. I know the magic is the focal point of his power, but Goku and Vegeta are still convinced the power of Super Saiyan Blue can handle him. Moro was giving Super Saiyan God Vegeta trouble when he was still at his diminished level, so logically he should far beyond that with his power restored.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

Block88
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:04 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am
The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.
I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:30 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.
I don’t see it that way. The only statement I think it should be overlooked or rather interpreted differently is Tenshinhan’s. “Kafla” (that’s her name) was said to be nearly as powerful as the genkidama Goku bathed in.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 am

Block88 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:04 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am
The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.
I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied
Nothing stated such, but we know in universe the fusion doesn't start at full power if the individuals are weakened. The fusion doesn't seem to show fatigue or damage ala Vegetto, but we know Vegetto had to take a senzu upon fusing to reach FP after Vegeta and Goku were severely weakened after fighting Zamasu.
The heart may be weak. And sometimes it may even give in. But I've learned... that deep down there's a light that never goes out! -Sora

Block88
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:39 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 am
Block88 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:04 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am
The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.
I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied
Nothing stated such, but we know in universe the fusion doesn't start at full power if the individuals are weakened. The fusion doesn't seem to show fatigue or damage ala Vegetto, but we know Vegetto had to take a senzu upon fusing to reach FP after Vegeta and Goku were severely weakened after fighting Zamasu.
IIRC Black got beat up by vegeta before he fused with Zamasu

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3124
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:02 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:52 am
I wonder how strong Moro actually is. I know the magic is the focal point of his power, but Goku and Vegeta are still convinced the power of Super Saiyan Blue can handle him. Moro was giving Super Saiyan God Vegeta trouble when he was still at his diminished level, so logically he should far beyond that with his power restored.
Apparently, there is a wide gap between SSGod and SSBlue. Boo managed to handle Moro just fine, so he might have surpassed SSGod as well. Moro surpassed Boo/Grand Kaioshin (I don’t know how to call him exactly) but he’s still weaker than SSBlue. His third wish probably grants him the ability to surpass SSBlue.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:34 am

Block88 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:04 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 am
The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.
I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied
Right, but is not headcanon, is just simple deduction: Kale was getting beaten up badly by fodder and they fused to avoid her getting ringed out. The point being Kefla (if Kale didn't waste her silver bullet before fusing and wasn't against the ropes) probably would've been stronger than she was.

Post Reply