Unpopular DB opinions

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sintzu
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:40 amNever seen it, don't care to see it. It's nearly 1000 episodes.
It'll probably be 1300-1500 by the time it's done. I do agree it's long, maybe even too long, but that shows how dedicated Oda is to getting his plan right. That plan being Luffy's crew sailing the world. He's going out of his way to show us a living, breathing world, which takes time. I'm not saying Super needed to be that long to get the universes right, but One Piece is a good example of how it pays off to take your time with that kind of idea. Had we gotten to visit each universe and gotten to know each character before the tournament, the weight behind each fight and universe being wiped out would've been a lot greater.

Super's writers have clearly shown they don't want to take the time to develop things, which is why they should've just stuck to U7 instead of getting us hyped for an idea they could never deliver on. If not that then maybe just say there are 3-4 universes. I always thought 12 was way too much, even when BOG released before we knew how they'd handle things.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am

You don't need that many episodes for a world to feel like there's life beyond the frame, nor do you need that many episodes for the audience to care about the characters or at least find them interesting. How long do you think it would take to get to know and care about each of these characters?

The final arc of Yu Yu Hakusho is relatively short, only 18 episodes, and yet the demon world feels lived in and interesting. The characters have motivations and personalities.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:22 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am You don't need that many episodes for a world to feel like there's life beyond the frame.
Of course not, but you still need more than what Super gave us.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:26 am

sintzu wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:22 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am You don't need that many episodes for a world to feel like there's life beyond the frame.
Of course not, but you still need more than what Super gave us.
I really don't think you do. It all boils down to quality of the time, not sheer quantity.

How long are we talking to see and care about all these characters?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:22 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:26 amHow long are we talking to see and care about all these characters?
I think each universe should've gotten an arc. The tournament of power could be the introduction arc to U11. U6 got their arc in that mini tournament so that leaves 4 universes getting an arc each before the tournament of power. The Black arc could've been U10's arc but instead they wasted it on Trunks, despite the villian being from U10.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:26 pm

That feels like it's checking off boxes, not telling stories.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:54 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:26 pmThat feels like it's checking off boxes, not telling stories.
Each arc would of course have a story that connects to the bigger plot. During the U6 and U7 tournament, Hit said he took part in the tournament to get a cube from Champa that would allow him to go to other universes. They could've followed that up with Hit getting his hand on a cube and finding his way to U9 for example to assassinate someone.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:24 pm

That sounds like a lot of gobbledygook about lore and world building that DB has never cared much about and takes away from Goku and his journey of self improvement. In other words, it doesn't sound like Dragon Ball.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:26 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am That's precisely how it is in Marvel/DC. There are several versions of the characters.

Then again, Dragon Ball GT and a few movies would have to take place in the same Universe, because there are only twelve, and there are sixteen movies (three for Dragon Ball and thirteen for Dragon Ball Z. Not counting the retelling one and Movie 14 and Movie 15 for obvious reasons). We know that at least Movie 5 and Movie 6 can and should go along with Dragon Ball GT, for example.
the multiverses can be from ridiculous, lazy or quite great depending on the writers for example.
a universe where all marvel characters are apes
a universe where all marvel characters are zombies
a universe where all the marvel characters are vampires many of these fail as the mangaverse

currently stories with a multiverse are rewritten to be considerably different
this is the case of flash point is a universe where part of the justice league is evil , bruce wayne dies, superman is weak, a group of children has the power of shazam etc anyway they take their time to create this story and the problem is that the dragon ball movies are too similar to the original with some characters that are not in the main story removing that, are the same

I think what it did super was the right thing to make the universes feel a little different but I think they should do the same than MCU did with his films for each hero should be done episodes for each universe before the tournament of power
Last edited by Tai Lung on Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:27 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:24 pmThat sounds like a lot of gobbledygook about lore and world building that DB has never cared much about and takes away from Goku and his journey of self improvement. In other words, it doesn't sound like Dragon Ball.
The original manga was always building up the lore. The trip to Namek was the result of the Saiyans killing Piccolo. The heroes found out about Namek through Piccolo being a Namakian living on earth and fighting them in the previous arcs. The death of Freeza by Trunks also starts a new arc, one that ties back to a previous one, the RRA arc.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:40 pm

The lore was the result of the story, not the other way around.
the multiverses can be from ridiculous, lazy or quite great depending on the writers for example.
a universe where all marvel characters are apes
a universe where all marvel characters are zombies
A universe without shrimp.
A universe of nothin but shrimp.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:26 pmcurrently stories with a multiverse are rewritten to be considerably different
this is the case of flash point is a universe where part of the justice league is evil , bruce wayne dies, superman is weak, a group of children has the power of shazam etc anyway they take their time to create this story and the problem is that the dragon ball movies are too similar to the original with some characters that are not in the main story removing that, are the same
I understand, but it's not like they can't come up with more stories to make each Universe more unique. Video-games, other authors, and Toei would certainly have something to contribute. They would be free to do whatever they want, even choosing an Universe to tell their own story. While we would be getting something in Universe 3 by Toei, we would also get a game telling its story in Universe 8, for instance. You can't get more diversified than that...

Speaking of video-games, I can see some of their stories fitting (with arrangements where it needs) in one of these Universes. While Dragon Ball Online takes place in Universe 7, Dragon Ball Xenoverse could take place in Universe 6, for example. As the latter is inspired by the former, kinda mirroring each other as well as playing with the fact that Universe 6 is "the other side of Universe 7".

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Izanagi » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:34 am

- Bowlcut Gohan is the best version of the character, in part because Namek is the best arc in Dragon Ball. He's in an extremely dire situation, but behaves more like a brave kid and a true hero than any other time after that. He does nothing against the Androids, then he trains to fight Cell and he's all of a sudden a pacifist against it which is a downgrade from the Namek version where he seemingly never hesitated to do what he thought was right. I wish they had put him in FighterZ and promoted him more, but it's something that will never happen since people only like SS2 and Ultimate Gohan.

- I don't care for either Jiren or Super!Broly, I think both of them are fairly boring, uninteresting characters, but Jiren at least felt threatening to me. All Broly really did was beat around two Saiyans and a lizard who literally exists to get thrashed around. I was more excited when Jiren literally stopped a Genki Dama by glaring at it and punching Freeza out of his golden form and into unconsciousness with one hit.

- Piccolo deserved a "rebirth" a million times more than 17, but instead the writers (especially Toei whose director admittedly has a hard-on for) are shoving that fucker who was completely forgotten after Cell, down our throat. I'm also a little annoyed that they chose Muten Roshi for the Tournament of Power instead of Yamcha, but at least his episodes were incredible.

- The fandom chanting 17 being the "MVP" like some mantra never ceases to amuse me as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Freeza all had more eliminations than him, and all have eliminated more important/powerful opponents than 17 who was piggybacking off of others and getting bailed out before anyone could kick his ass.

- Goku and Vegeta are a dreadfully boring duo. Partly because Vegeta has matured, thus, he has also become boring and stale. While Goku has regressed and he gets flanderized at times in Super, but I honestly felt like his character in the Tournament of Power is the most entertaining version of the character since he was a kid and the Saiyan-Namek days (outside of that, I find Goku boring for the most part). Goku and Freeza have more interesting interactions and is a better combo than Goku and Vegeta, I'd even take Goku and Piccolo over Goku and Vegeta any day.

- Cell is incredibly boring, and I still cannot fathom the appeal of him (especially by the US fans). Once he started to absorb the Androids, he became shadow of his inferior forms, who used cunning, trickery and outright grovelling to evolve. That was interesting and a breathe of fresh air. Perfect Cell was just some boring Freeza clone who would boast, have his ass handed to him, then boast some more about how he was at X% of his true power, and proceeded to slap Vegeta, Trunks, Goku and the Z Fighters around. Super Perfect Cell was even worse, making Goku's sacrifice seem redundant. Goku's final death should have meant something. This just made me wish he died on Namek to beat Freeza.

- Namek saga Vegeta is the only cool Vegeta, and I find his character development severely overrated. Saiyan-Namek saga Vegeta was a complete and utter psychopath who gave zero fuck about his race, killed his own partner on a whim (even though Saiyans gets stronger after recuperating from a situation like that), and was generally a cunning, opportunistic little shit (leaving Goku to get killed by Ginyu just to note one example). Then comes the Android saga, where there's no trace of his cunningness and he's all about "muh Saiyajin puraido", even though Namek saga's already shown us that he's willing to fight dirty if it gets him closer to his goal.

- Toriyama's interviews and his out of universe inputs are the worst things that ever happened to Dragon Ball. The published canon was just fine without him Lucas-ing all over it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:42 am

He didn't kill Nappa on a whim. He saw Nappa as useless. It doesn't matter that Nappa could get stronger after recupperating, he lost to a lower class warrior. He killed him because he was ashamed of him.

And Vegeta's character in the Cell arc isn't a betrayal of his cunning self from the previous arc. We saw the overconfident Saiyan warrior in that arc as well. Vegeta is cunning when he knows he's in over his head. When he believes he's stronger than his opponent, which is not an insigificant portion of the time, he's not as clever because he doesn't think he has to be.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:03 am

Izanagi wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:34 am - Bowlcut Gohan is the best version of the character
Bowlcut Gohan was just kind of generic. I prefer teen Gohan (actual teen not what Funimation thinks is a teen) from the Boo era or Saiyajin saga Gohan.
. I'm also a little annoyed that they chose Muten Roshi for the Tournament of Power instead of Yamcha, but at least his episodes were incredible.
I’m not because Yamucha is a bore. People can whine about him becoming the franchise butt monkey but it’s seriously the best thing to happen to his character.
Before that he was pretty bland even when he was quasi important in pre-Z Dragon Ball.

- .
- Cell is incredibly boring, and I still cannot fathom the appeal of him (especially by the US fans)
The appeal of Cell in the US fandom should be apparent. He jived the best with the Dragon Brawl Zeeee tone Funi was going for. Freeza was an androgynous weirdo who nobody could figure out what it was suppose to be and Buu was too silly and clashed with what Funimation was trying to pretend the show was


.
. Saiyan-Namek saga Vegeta was a complete and utter psychopath who gave zero fuck about his race
He CRIED over Freeza killing their race and begged Goku to kill Freeza so he can die by a Saiyajin’s hand. Saying he gave zero fucks about his race in the Namek saga is so false it’s not even funny

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Goku should have died on Namek and not wished back. It would have been the ultimate sacrifice. Then Trunks comes back to warn GOHAN (since Gohan was his master in the future) and Vegeta about the coming androids. Goku stays out of the picture other than maybe telepathic encouragement.
Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo are the main characters with Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha playing support, with more things to do than they actually did since Goku wouldn't be there.

I'm not saying this SHOULD have happened, but I honestly feel Goku's story ended on namek. His character never evolved after that.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm

omegacwa wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm Goku should have died on Namek and not wished back. It would have been the ultimate sacrifice. Then Trunks comes back to warn GOHAN (since Gohan was his master in the future) and Vegeta about the coming androids. Goku stays out of the picture other than maybe telepathic encouragement.
Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo are the main characters with Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha playing support, with more things to do than they actually did since Goku wouldn't be there.

I'm not saying this SHOULD have happened, but I honestly feel Goku's story ended on namek. His character never evolved after that.
So instead of having Goku evolve in someway, your suggestion is to put other characters in the driver seat this deep into the story? If there's anything I'm practically dogmatic about, it's my dislike of swaping main characters after a substantial run in a long running story. I'm hard pressed to think of a time where it actually worked. You either end the story, find a way to evolve the character, or find new situation to put the character in. I'm inclined to think the last idea works best here as I also don't think characters have to constantly evolve for a story to remain interesting.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:18 pm

omegacwa wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm Goku should have died on Namek and not wished back. It would have been the ultimate sacrifice. Then Trunks comes back to warn GOHAN (since Gohan was his master in the future) and Vegeta about the coming androids. Goku stays out of the picture other than maybe telepathic encouragement.
Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo are the main characters with Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha playing support, with more things to do than they actually did since Goku wouldn't be there.

I'm not saying this SHOULD have happened, but I honestly feel Goku's story ended on namek. His character never evolved after that.
Dragon Ball is Goku’s story other than the brief time it transferred to Gohan during the Saiyaman portion.

Goku dying would be fine (if horribly cliche) as an ending.

Even when Toriyama, very briefly, considered making Gohan the main character it didn’t last long and it was near the end of Dragon Ball’s run.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:43 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm So instead of having Goku evolve in someway, your suggestion is to put other characters in the driver seat this deep into the story? If there's anything I'm practically dogmatic about, it's my dislike of swaping main characters after a substantial run in a long running story. I'm hard pressed to think of a time where it actually worked. You either end the story, find a way to evolve the character, or find new situation to put the character in. I'm inclined to think the last idea works best here as I also don't think characters have to constantly evolve for a story to remain interesting.
I think there is a big difference between raising up a popular supporting character and dropping in some random to be the main character.

Goku's only evolution after Namek was when he died against Cell and realized he was a danger magnet. This story beat could have happened after Namek.

Here's the thing, we are all looking at this with massive hindsight. I'm willing to bet a large portion of the current Dragon Ball fanbase wasn't even alive when it was coming out originally. Maybe when it was coming out originally people were Goku hungry. Now I feel people have grown to love the supporting cast and realized that it's not really "the Goku show" and more an ensemble. With this kind of thinking you can see how the story could have gone had X character been permanently removed or if X character had been moved up to central.

A common thing I see across all social media is people being vocal about how they want other characters to get the lime light. I think this is entirely possible without completely removing Goku.

The trouble with Dragon Ball, unlike american comics, is if a popular side character gets popular enough they will usually get their own story. I'm not sure if this happens in manga but It seems like it's far less often

The fan base is hungry for a Vegeta story. A Trunks story. A Gohan story. A Piccolo Story. There is no reason these things couldn't exist. They just don't.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:06 pm

sintzu wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:40 amNever seen it, don't care to see it. It's nearly 1000 episodes.
It'll probably be 1300-1500 by the time it's done. I do agree it's long, maybe even too long, but that shows how dedicated Oda is to getting his plan right. .

No, if anything a series lasting that long shows the exact opposite. There is no plan there’s just a series meandering in perpetuity until it no longer makes enough profit.

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