"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

Jiren is boring. Having as little of a character as possible, you could replace him with a literal wall and nothing much would change. He boring and so absurdly strong without any good reason to be. His backstory is so uninspired and boring. He feels like an antagonist you would only create if you hated Dragon ball and wanted to watch it die.

I want to see someone just animate Goku fighting a piece of wood with Jiren's face on it. It'd be about as interesting and well designed as Jiren actually is

So pretty cool and fun nice

Well yeah, because at least as a literal plank of wood he could try and compare to his fellow kindred spirit Plank himself, which is somehow a better character than him.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.
2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.
3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.
4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.
5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.
6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.
7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

[Block88]

I want to see someone just animate Goku fighting a piece of wood with Jiren's face on it. It'd be about as interesting and well designed as Jiren actually is

So pretty cool and fun nice

Well yeah, because at least as a literal plank of wood he could try and compare to his fellow kindred spirit Plank himself, which is somehow a better character than him.

Plank and jiren would be best friends they could talk about how being simple is alright and wonderful

[dbzfan7]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.
2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.
3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.
4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.
5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.
6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.
7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

I mean Toriyama literally sees all he does, has all the power in the world to veto Toyotaro if he wants. So anything that goes through he was ok with. Doesn't per say excuse Toyotaro at all, but it does show Toriyama approves what he does. So honestly if anyone wants to criticize which is just fine, they both really need to be rather than putting sole blame on just Toyo.

To be fair Freeza has a lot more charisma than Moro does. As well as a lot of other things going for him Moro doesn't. Evil for the sake of it isn't always a bad thing, as there are many more ways to round out a character. I'm personally interested in Moro and what he brings to the table, but I also wouldn't say I like him a lot either. He's just at least hits some entertaining spots I can enjoy at least.

Plank and jiren would be best friends they could talk about how being simple is alright and wonderful

Exactly! They have so much in common and would be the best of friends.

[Block88]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.
2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.
3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.
4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.
5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.
6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.
7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

Never said the arc was terrible m8 your projecting.
This arc is decent at best outside of giving reasons why uub would have goku attention and adding a bit of lore to buu it isn’t all that great just alright so far.


Difference is freeza has the charisma to make it work along with the attitude which makes him entertaining to see.

It’s all about how u make it work buu was primordial being that existed since time immemorial,cell was created from the DNA of multiple which included ones that were evil like freeza.

Moro so far outside of his design is lame and my opinion of him may change depending on how the arc plays out.

If toyo doesn’t take his abilities beyond sucking energy than Moro was a waste of a concept

[Kanassa]

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

You can't ask for someone else to be mature and immediately fall on 'Well, you guys just want to hate it' point.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.

Which is at odds with how they've been presented before and has arguably done more damage than good.

2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.

Ah, so you haven't actually read the thread on Kanzenshuu when this specific point, along with Buu being relevant, has been a repeated point of praise for the manga?

3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.

In ways that have little thought put into them and seem to contradict itself in the same story it's added in.

4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.

We already had enough of an explanation of why Goku would care about Uub. Plus, this isn't an explanation since Goku was still interested in him before he learned this new information.

5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.

And it was given new life, how? By using it in the same way? Because he drains planets too? Because it made Yamcha look better?

6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.

Again, Moro's design has mostly been well received.

7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

"What's that? The plot needs me to be able to sense Dragon Balls now because the Heroes actually used common sense? Okay, I sense Dragon Balls now."

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

No, they bring that up when a villain lacks anything else to help them stand without a complicated motivation. And I say this as someone who didn't really like Frieza until Super.

PLus, usually when people say 'I'm evil for the sake of it' they're more talking about how the character's actions seem to ahve no sort of reasoning too it outside of just 'Well, I'm evil'. Frieza at least had ambitions, fueled by ego, anger and profit. Does Moro want to conquer? Does he just want to eat? Does he want to prove something?

[HeroR]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.
2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.
3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.
4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.
5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.
6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.
7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

1) The patrol being largely helpless and clueless was the point. Them knowing so much about Buu and the Gods bring up so many questions. Like why didn’t they handled Frieza better. Heck Frieza’s is back and stronger than ever they’ve done shit to stop him. They even told their patrols not to mess with Frieza and scared of the Saiyans to the point it was okay to wipe the planet over letting the population suffer.

2) Sorta agree, but it all feels forced.

3) I haven’t seen anything that interesting. Mostly retreads that is worse than the original.

4) Frieza went from kid’s fodder to God tier in four months and 17 reached God tier in over a decade. Why wouldn’t Goku be excited at someone who could probably do the same or better. And Goku was interesting in Uub since at least the Champa Saga. We didn’t need an explanation.

5) I don’t see why this concept needed to be revisited when we had something better in the Buu Saga when Buu outright absorbed people.

6) Moro does have an interesting design, but Hit doesn’t look like Frieza outside of having Toriyama’s six face design.

7) You mean ‘I can suddenly sense Dragon Balls when I couldn’t three days ago’ AssPull?

As for the other villains they did have goals despite being evil dicks like Frieza wanted to be God-Emperor and live forever, Cell wanting to be the perfect being, and depending on which Buu they were led into evil, a crazier version of Cell, or pure chaos who only live to kill. And some of them like King Piccolo and Kid Buu were literally pure evil and Cell was created to be as twisted as he was. What’s Moro’s reason for wanting to eat the universe?

[HeroR]

Nah jiren isn’t boring his haters are at this point are given there constant rants about him kinda like yours.

Bringing him up doesn’t negate Moro being boring and dull as well so don’t know why you guys keep doing this.

True, but being a bland piece of bread is better than being a literal wall of a character. You can't convince me otherwise with your Toyo hate.

I mean, hell, bringing up Jiren makes Moro worse because, unlike Jiren, Moro's the star of an arc that gives him no characters to support him outside of meaningless henchmen. Jiren, while the end goal of the arc, still had a cast of different characters from different teams fill up screen time.

You mean the fact that literally everyone else in the tournament had more character than the main antagonist is a good thing? Not to mention he barley interacts with them. They mean nothing to him. Jiren did nothing that affected the other characters outside of being the strongest one there.

Moro in comparison interacted heavily with Cranberry. He helped him break out of prison, he flew him to namek. Hell, if he didn't have Cranberry he would have never gotten his full magic power. And his response to all that he did for him was a hand through the chest, ending with cranberry showing a face of betrayal to Moro. He just wanted to escape to somewhere he could lay low and not have to deal with the galactic patrol , frieza or even hopefully Moro. THATS CALLED CHARACTER. All put into a supposedly "Useless" henchmen.

Like going through the whole “well he’s better than x”route seems lame and petty cause cause what has Moro to make him exactly stand out outside of his design? Motivation is meh his magic isn’t remotely interesting so far and that’s supposed to be his bread and butter.
I’m honestly curious where the hell were going with this story? Is he gonna lose on namek given how fast things are going or will things continue?

This is one of the reason this arc has been well received (Outside of Kanzenshuu). Its the first time in years that the manga i ahead of the anime. People are curious about what Toyo has when it comes to his own villain and not piggy backing the anime.

I think this video perfectly describes what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5eDAXloLc

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Also while Jiren’s motives and backstory wasn’t the best, he at least had a backstory and reasons why he was such an asshole despite being a ‘hero’. Moro, why is he evil and what is his goal in eating the universe? Is he like Cell and just want power for his own sake? Does he want to conquer the universe? Or is he like King Piccolo who was made of evil and just wants to see the world burn?

There’s no there with Moro. He’s just an evil wizard in name only who does what he does just cause. At least Cell fully admitted to being a shallow dick.

Also, Moro comes off even worst since Super for the most part moved away from evil for the sake of evil villains. Black and Zamasu were some of the most evil villains in the franchise, but in their eyes they were the heroes of the story trying to save the universe. Then we have Beerus and Champa who aren’t evil so much as selfish dicks with too much power. Even Freeza got some layers added to him in Super. He’s still an evil, selfish SOB, but he showed after much humiliation that he can play the long game and even work with people he despises. Moro is not only a step back, but he feels like he’s filling out a ‘Dragon Ball villain’ checklist instead of being a real character. It’s the same problem the Shadow Dragons had outside of Nouva. But I’m not surprise since Toyo had this same problem when writing his version of Black and Zamasu, where they were both far more generic Dragon Ball villains compared to their anime counterparts.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

You can't ask for someone else to be mature and immediately fall on 'Well, you guys just want to hate it' point.

I have seen people on Kanzenshuu give genuine death threats to Toyotaro. I feel like its in my right to say that.

Which is at odds with how they've been presented before and has arguably done more damage than good.

Arguably.

Ah, so you haven't actually read the thread on Kanzenshuu when this specific point, along with Buu being relevant, has been a repeated point of praise for the manga?

Well when you only talk about the bad and never discuss the good it comes off as very cynical. I talked about the bad to make a more balanced point.

In ways that have little thought put into them and seem to contradict itself in the same story it's added in.

Why is Moro fighting the Daikaioshin Contradictory?

We already had enough of an explanation of why Goku would care about Uub. Plus, this isn't an explanation since Goku was still interested in him before he learned this new information.

He was more like "Hmm, neat kid" Not someone he would fly off with like how he does at the EoZ. Especially when he was only as strong as Kid Buu. And What explanation are we given?

And it was given new life, how? By using it in the same way? Because he drains planets too? Because it made Yamcha look better?

By not being so easy to counter. Goku only lost to 19 because he had a literal heart attack, and then Vegeta came in a Jobbed him. 20 was smart and was able to evade Vegeta. Other wise Goku and Vegeta would have been 100% fine.

Again, Moro's design has mostly been well received.

You haven't acknowledged it, and you are the one I am arguing with.

"What's that? The plot needs me to be able to sense Dragon Balls now because the Heroes actually used common sense? Okay, I sense Dragon Balls now."

So, just the one then? One that was simple enough to brush off as a mistake and keep going, no less.

No, they bring that up when a villain lacks anything else to help them stand without a complicated motivation. And I say this as someone who didn't really like Frieza until Super.

Alright, I'll give you that one.

Plus, usually when people say 'I'm evil for the sake of it' they're more talking about how the character's actions seem to ahve no sort of reasoning too it outside of just 'Well, I'm evil'. Frieza at least had ambitions, fueled by ego, anger and profit. Does Moro want to conquer? Does he just want to eat? Does he want to prove something?

I'd assume it was build on his massive ego and literal god complex seeing everyone else as his food and them being below him.

Also, "Blanket statement means something else for the sake of the argument" cliche

[theTUN]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Be mature please. If you can that is.

I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless). I'm just gonna list the good stuff that people ignore.

1. Making the Galactic Patrol actually matter and not be just space cops for comedic affect. They have a place in the lore and actually do their jobs well.
2. Tying into the Majin Buu Story line with the daikaioshin which was basically forgotten after the Buu saga.
3. Expanding the lore in new interesting ways.
4. Giving an explanation for why Goku would care about Uub at the end of Z.
5. Taking an concept wasted with androids 19 and 20 and giving it new life.
6. Having a character with an interesting design thats not just "Frieza but Purple" like Hit.
7. Being a Magic Character that doesn't pull abilities out of his ass with the only explanation being Magic like the common trope.

Not to mention that every villain is "I'm Evil for the sake of it". Frieza didn't have a reason to be evil, and he is the most beloved Dragon Ball Villain. Seems like people only bring that up when it suits them.

Frieza was evil because it was profitable and allowed him to expand his empire.

[Kanassa]

You can't ask for someone else to be mature and immediately fall on 'Well, you guys just want to hate it' point.

I have seen people on Kanzenshuu give genuine death threats to Toyotaro. I feel like its in my right to say that.

And? I've seen a guy on another forum who wants to have sex with Toyo. One or two people being assholes isn't exactly enough to go "This site just hates him!", especially when the manga thread has been largely positive before and for most of the Moro arc.

It's starting to look like you've just entered the thread and barely read any of it.

Which is at odds with how they've been presented before and has arguably done more damage than good.

Arguably.

You can't really go "Well, that's debatable" when you're saying these are the undeniably good things that all the Kanzenshuu people are overlooking.

Well when you only talk about the bad and never discuss the good it comes off as very cynical. I talked about the bad to make a more balanced point.

That has nothing to do with what I said about your point being utter bullshit in trying to say that a point that's been repeatedly praised is actually overlooked by the community.

Why is Moro fighting the Daikaioshin Contradictory?

The power of the Kaioshin, how this fits in with the rest of the events, the knowledge of it itself, ect and that isn't the only part of the expansion that's been thoughtless. From what Hero's already described about the patrol, to all characters involved having inconsistent knowledge of the Buu Saga and other events.

He was more like "Hmm, neat kid" Not someone he would fly off with like how he does at the EoZ. Especially when he was only as strong as Kid Buu. And What explanation are we given?

He still wants to go and fight Uub like he already did.

Uub has insane potential. Super shows how much more insane potential he has through everyone's short time growth with less potential.

And it was given new life, how? By using it in the same way? Because he drains planets too? Because it made Yamcha look better?

By not being so easy to counter. Goku only lost to 19 because he had a literal heart attack, and then Vegeta came in a Jobbed him. 20 was smart and was able to evade Vegeta. Other wise Goku and Vegeta would have been 100% fine. [/quote]
And the Manga has the characters talk about how it only worked because they were unaware it was happening, same as the androids. Even more enforced with how Goku and vegeta are completely confident that they can fight Moro and Moro doesn't mention "I'll just drain you again"

Again, Moro's design has mostly been well received.

You haven't acknowledged it, and you are the one I am arguing with.

No, I've said Moro design is fine before and you're the one whose listing what the people on Kanzenshuu, which you've been saying just has a hateboner for the manga, have been overlooking. When you list something that Kanzenshuu users have mostly been praising, your already flimsy point falls.

"What's that? The plot needs me to be able to sense Dragon Balls now because the Heroes actually used common sense? Okay, I sense Dragon Balls now."

So, just the one then? One that was simple enough to brush off as a mistake and keep going, no less.

Moving the goalposts, then?

Plus, usually when people say 'I'm evil for the sake of it' they're more talking about how the character's actions seem to ahve no sort of reasoning too it outside of just 'Well, I'm evil'. Frieza at least had ambitions, fueled by ego, anger and profit. Does Moro want to conquer? Does he just want to eat? Does he want to prove something?

I'd assume it was build on his massive ego and literal god complex seeing everyone else as his food and them being below him.

So, you don't know then?

Also, "Blanket statement means something else for the sake of the argument" cliche

It's not for the sake of argument, it's saying what they're actually saying. When people usually say 'They're evil for the sake of evil' that is what they are referring too, that is what the phrase commonly means.

Why are you pulling a Cinemasins in a discussion on a forum? Before you ask, no, I'm not giving you a lapdance.

[Lionel]

Dragon Ball is far from being the premiere example of thoroughly nuanced characterisation for its villains. Having said that, a lot of people considered Zamasu to be groundbreaking. The character still fell into some of the notorious trappings of villainy in DB but the attempt was a step in the right direction. With Moro, he's yet to do anything that's all too engaging in his personality and ambitions. Yes, he does stand out for being the first primary antagonist of an arc who operates using magic but that's about it. Toyotaro had an opportunity with Cranberry to maybe offer something for Moro's personality but we all saw how that turned out.

Here's hoping more is done for Moro's character besides just having Goku and Vegeta finish him off or whatever.

[TheSaiyanGod]

True, but being a bland piece of bread is better than being a literal wall of a character. You can't convince me otherwise with your Toyo hate.



You mean the fact that literally everyone else in the tournament had more character than the main antagonist is a good thing? Not to mention he barley interacts with them. They mean nothing to him. Jiren did nothing that affected the other characters outside of being the strongest one there.

Moro in comparison interacted heavily with Cranberry. He helped him break out of prison, he flew him to namek. Hell, if he didn't have Cranberry he would have never gotten his full magic power. And his response to all that he did for him was a hand through the chest, ending with cranberry showing a face of betrayal to Moro. He just wanted to escape to somewhere he could lay low and not have to deal with the galactic patrol , frieza or even hopefully Moro. THATS CALLED CHARACTER. All put into a supposedly "Useless" henchmen.





This is one of the reason this arc has been well received (Outside of Kanzenshuu). Its the first time in years that the manga i ahead of the anime. People are curious about what Toyo has when it comes to his own villain and not piggy backing the anime.

I think this video perfectly describes what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5eDAXloLc

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Also while Jiren’s motives and backstory wasn’t the best, he at least had a backstory and reasons why he was such an asshole despite being a ‘hero’. Moro, why is he evil and what is his goal in eating the universe? Is he like Cell and just want power for his own sake? Does he want to conquer the universe? Or is he like King Piccolo who was made of evil and just wants to see the world burn?

There’s no there with Moro. He’s just an evil wizard in name only who does what he does just cause. At least Cell fully admitted to being a shallow dick.

Also, Moro comes off even worst since Super for the most part moved away from evil for the sake of evil villains. Black and Zamasu were some of the most evil villains in the franchise, but in their eyes they were the heroes of the story trying to save the universe. Then we have Beerus and Champa who aren’t evil so much as selfish dicks with too much power. Even Freeza got some layers added to him in Super. He’s still an evil, selfish SOB, but he showed after much humiliation that he can play the long game and even work with people he despises. Moro is not only a step back, but he feels like he’s filling out a ‘Dragon Ball villain’ checklist instead of being a real character. It’s the same problem the Shadow Dragons had outside of Nouva. But I’m not surprise since Toyo had this same problem when writing his version of Black and Zamasu, where they were both far more generic Dragon Ball villains compared to their anime counterparts.

Freeza is considered one of the best villains of DB and we know absolutely nothing about his past, nor what motivated him to want to rule the universe. Is it just because he is evil, like most of the villains you quoted? His charisma is undeniable, but it is also clear that there is not much development about how he was born and what motivates his actions, just as there is not with most DB antagonists because it is simply Toriyama's style. He even says that Zamasu's characterization of anime is not how he develops his villains (It's not a Toyotaro problem) This is not necessary to make someone a good villain

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

And? I've seen a guy on another forum who wants to have sex with Toyo. One or two people being assholes isn't exactly enough to go "This site just hates him!", especially when the manga thread has been largely positive before and for most of the Moro arc.

I belive my exact statement was "I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless)". The First half of that being completely true. People do tend to gloss over stuff the arc does good to show its flaws more prominently.

The Part of the statement in parrenthesis was intended to be a joke to stop you from being so cynical. I figured the use of the term "Hate Boner" got that across, but I guess comedy isnt all that big on Kanzenshuu either (Also A Joke, Incase you couldn't tell)

It's starting to look like you've just entered the thread and barely read any of it.

Considering I have spent the last 6 months Banned from Kanzenshuu for having a different opinion, I would say that assessment is true.

You can't really go "Well, that's debatable" when you're saying these are the undeniably good things that all the Kanzenshuu people are overlooking.

First of, you yourself said it was arguable and I was just repeating you. Second off, you keep referencing that joke. An obvious one too.

That has nothing to do with what I said about your point being utter bullshit in trying to say that a point that's been repeatedly praised is actually overlooked by the community.

Honestly, aside from Clothespin and the people on this forum I have only seen praise for this arc. Which is why I am pointing most of my points towards this forum since the number of people who have a problem with this arc seem to be few and far between.

The power of the Kaioshin, how this fits in with the rest of the events, the knowledge of it itself, ect and that isn't the only part of the expansion that's been thoughtless. From what Hero's already described about the patrol, to all characters involved having inconsistent knowledge of the Buu Saga and other events.

The knowledge is explained by the galactic patrol existing for millions of years, this entire arc couldn't have happened had the galactic patrol not had that change (Or is that fine), and the Daikaioshin having immense power makes sense. Heck, kinda explains why Zamasu was as strong as he was. Daikaioshin used a bunch of his power to seal Moro, and Shin is just weak.

Everything else I can't argue with all that much.

He still wants to go and fight Uub like he already did.

Uub has insane potential. Super shows how much more insane potential he has through everyone's short time growth with less potential.

I still think that having him have the hidden god potential of the Daikaioshin is a better explanation than super's inconsistent power jumps.

And the Manga has the characters talk about how it only worked because they were unaware it was happening, same as the androids. Even more enforced with how Goku and vegeta are completely confident that they can fight Moro and Moro doesn't mention "I'll just drain you again"

Being aware of something doesn't stop it from happening. He can drain the energy of anyone on the planet he is on. What is knowing that gonna change?

No, I've said Moro design is fine before and you're the one whose listing what the people on Kanzenshuu, which you've been saying just has a hateboner for the manga, have been overlooking. When you list something that Kanzenshuu users have mostly been praising, your already flimsy point falls.

I like how you even address the use of the term "Hateboner" and still don't get that it was a joke.

Moving the goalposts, then?

The point was that the trope is that as wizards abilities don't need to be explained because magic. Moro having shown off the ability to sense things before hand, this isn't as much an ass pull as , oh i don't know, perhaps a giant ball of gum turning people into candy because magic. And healing a boy because magic.

So, you don't know then?

Has there ever been a direct source saying "Frieza is evil because..." No? I thought not.

Interpretation. Show, don't tell.

It's not for the sake of argument, it's saying what they're actually saying. When people usually say 'They're evil for the sake of evil' that is what they are referring too, that is what the phrase commonly means.

Thats what the statement means in this specific circumstance because you say it does.

Why are you pulling a Cinemasins in a discussion on a forum? Before you ask, no, I'm not giving you a lapdance.

Oh, so you do get jokes. Then why are you feigning ignorance in your other arguments?

[HeroR]

Amazing how you failed to prove your point here.
Going well my “shit is better than your shit” isn’t gonna change that Moro is still shit m8.

Half of what Moro is no different than every baddie in dragon do so honestly going by your logic Moro barely has any character at all that isn’t just hurr durr I’m evil for the sake of it

Also while Jiren’s motives and backstory wasn’t the best, he at least had a backstory and reasons why he was such an asshole despite being a ‘hero’. Moro, why is he evil and what is his goal in eating the universe? Is he like Cell and just want power for his own sake? Does he want to conquer the universe? Or is he like King Piccolo who was made of evil and just wants to see the world burn?

There’s no there with Moro. He’s just an evil wizard in name only who does what he does just cause. At least Cell fully admitted to being a shallow dick.

Also, Moro comes off even worst since Super for the most part moved away from evil for the sake of evil villains. Black and Zamasu were some of the most evil villains in the franchise, but in their eyes they were the heroes of the story trying to save the universe. Then we have Beerus and Champa who aren’t evil so much as selfish dicks with too much power. Even Freeza got some layers added to him in Super. He’s still an evil, selfish SOB, but he showed after much humiliation that he can play the long game and even work with people he despises. Moro is not only a step back, but he feels like he’s filling out a ‘Dragon Ball villain’ checklist instead of being a real character. It’s the same problem the Shadow Dragons had outside of Nouva. But I’m not surprise since Toyo had this same problem when writing his version of Black and Zamasu, where they were both far more generic Dragon Ball villains compared to their anime counterparts.

Freeza is considered one of the best villains of DB and we know absolutely nothing about his past, nor what motivated him to want to rule the universe. Is it just because he is evil, like most of the villains you quoted? His charisma is undeniable, but it is also clear that there is not much development about how he was born and what motivates his actions, just as there is not with most DB antagonists because it is simply Toriyama's style. He even says that Zamasu's characterization of anime is not how he develops his villains (It's not a Toyotaro problem) This is not necessary to make someone a good villain

What made Freeza work despite being shallow was his personality. He acted polite, calm, and complimented strong people. However, under that polite facade was a brutal, sadistic, asshole.

That and again, we know Freeza’s motive. He wasn’t completely evil for the sake of evil since he ran a business and wanted to live forever. The business is utter BS, but at the end of the day Freeza is a restate agent.

Also, it is a Toyo problem since Toriyama also wrote Beerus, new Broly, and his father. Heck, even Freeza has layer as seen in Resurrection ‘F’, TOP, and Broly Showing he can make layered villains. Toyo showed that he really can’t.

[Kanassa]

And? I've seen a guy on another forum who wants to have sex with Toyo. One or two people being assholes isn't exactly enough to go "This site just hates him!", especially when the manga thread has been largely positive before and for most of the Moro arc.

I belive my exact statement was "I feel like People gloss over a lot of stuff that this arc does good (Simply because toyotaro wrote it and everyone on Kanzenshuu seems to have a hate boner for him but regardless)". The First half of that being completely true. People do tend to gloss over stuff the arc does good to show its flaws more prominently.

The Part of the statement in parrenthesis was intended to be a joke to stop you from being so cynical. I figured the use of the term "Hate Boner" got that across, but I guess comedy isnt all that big on Kanzenshuu either (Also A Joke, Incase you couldn't tell)

Ah yes, because very few people would ever use the word 'hate-boner' when trying to generalize for the sake of a point? In the context of the sentence as a whole, nothing about it suggests a comedic tone.

You can't really go "Well, that's debatable" when you're saying these are the undeniably good things that all the Kanzenshuu people are overlooking.

First of, you yourself said it was arguable and I was just repeating you. Second off, you keep referencing that joke. An obvious one too.

So, you had no point?

That has nothing to do with what I said about your point being utter bullshit in trying to say that a point that's been repeatedly praised is actually overlooked by the community.

Honestly, aside from Clothespin and the people on this forum I have only seen praise for this arc. Which is why I am pointing most of my points towards this forum since the number of people who have a problem with this arc seem to be few and far between.

Wait, are you referencing the point you just said was a joke now?

The knowledge is explained by the galactic patrol existing for millions of years, this entire arc couldn't have happened had the galactic patrol not had that change (Or is that fine), and the Daikaioshin having immense power makes sense. Heck, kinda explains why Zamasu was as strong as he was. Daikaioshin used a bunch of his power to seal Moro, and Shin is just weak.

Everything else I can't argue with all that much.

Daikoshin's power makes little sense considering later events where that heaping power would have come in useful and Moro's own power apparently being comparable is even more suspect considering his own actions in this arc.

He still wants to go and fight Uub like he already did.

Uub has insane potential. Super shows how much more insane potential he has through everyone's short time growth with less potential.

I still think that having him have the hidden god potential of the Daikaioshin is a better explanation than super's inconsistent power jumps.

It's not an explanation since Goku already had those goals before knowing it.

And the Manga has the characters talk about how it only worked because they were unaware it was happening, same as the androids. Even more enforced with how Goku and vegeta are completely confident that they can fight Moro and Moro doesn't mention "I'll just drain you again"

Being aware of something doesn't stop it from happening. He can drain the energy of anyone on the planet he is on. What is knowing that gonna change?

The characters and the story sure as hell think it does.

No, I've said Moro design is fine before and you're the one whose listing what the people on Kanzenshuu, which you've been saying just has a hateboner for the manga, have been overlooking. When you list something that Kanzenshuu users have mostly been praising, your already flimsy point falls.

I like how you even address the use of the term "Hateboner" and still don't get that it was a joke.

Have you been banned from the internet for 6 months?

Moving the goalposts, then?

The point was that the trope is that as wizards abilities don't need to be explained because magic. Moro having shown off the ability to sense things before hand, this isn't as much an ass pull as , oh i don't know, perhaps a giant ball of gum turning people into candy because magic. And healing a boy because magic.

The point was that you were saying the trope wasn't used when it was. And jumping from 'I can sense people, like everyone else in the series' to 'I can suddenly sense the specific plot item that I need out of nowhere' is more of an asspull than Buu having an ability he already knew he had that doesn't debut as convience for the plot and healing. If those count, then all of Moro's abilities are 'Because magic'.

A far greater example is Buu's absorption ability, something that comes out of nowhere just when Buu's about to be beaten, coming off as very convienant for the plot or the fusion dance .

So, you don't know then?

Has there ever been a direct source saying "Frieza is evil because..." No? I thought not.

Interpretation. Show, don't tell.[/quote]

Frieza has a clear end goal with a personality to further inform that end goal. Moro has vauge, generic lines and no real goal aside from winning. Frieza wants immortality so that he can continue to expand his empire unopposed.

It's not for the sake of argument, it's saying what they're actually saying. When people usually say 'They're evil for the sake of evil' that is what they are referring too, that is what the phrase commonly means.

Thats what the statement means in this specific circumstance because you say it does.

Thet's what the statement means in the context that's being used and is commonly used in, yes.

Oh, so you do get jokes. Then why are you feigning ignorance in your other arguments?

Look, Dude, I'm sorry I didn't get your joke.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Also while Jiren’s motives and backstory wasn’t the best, he at least had a backstory and reasons why he was such an asshole despite being a ‘hero’. Moro, why is he evil and what is his goal in eating the universe? Is he like Cell and just want power for his own sake? Does he want to conquer the universe? Or is he like King Piccolo who was made of evil and just wants to see the world burn?

There’s no there with Moro. He’s just an evil wizard in name only who does what he does just cause. At least Cell fully admitted to being a shallow dick.

Also, Moro comes off even worst since Super for the most part moved away from evil for the sake of evil villains. Black and Zamasu were some of the most evil villains in the franchise, but in their eyes they were the heroes of the story trying to save the universe. Then we have Beerus and Champa who aren’t evil so much as selfish dicks with too much power. Even Freeza got some layers added to him in Super. He’s still an evil, selfish SOB, but he showed after much humiliation that he can play the long game and even work with people he despises. Moro is not only a step back, but he feels like he’s filling out a ‘Dragon Ball villain’ checklist instead of being a real character. It’s the same problem the Shadow Dragons had outside of Nouva. But I’m not surprise since Toyo had this same problem when writing his version of Black and Zamasu, where they were both far more generic Dragon Ball villains compared to their anime counterparts.

Freeza is considered one of the best villains of DB and we know absolutely nothing about his past, nor what motivated him to want to rule the universe. Is it just because he is evil, like most of the villains you quoted? His charisma is undeniable, but it is also clear that there is not much development about how he was born and what motivates his actions, just as there is not with most DB antagonists because it is simply Toriyama's style. He even says that Zamasu's characterization of anime is not how he develops his villains (It's not a Toyotaro problem) This is not necessary to make someone a good villain

What made Freeza work despite being shallow was his personality. He acted polite, calm, and complimented strong people. However, under that polite facade was a brutal, sadistic, asshole.

That and again, we know Freeza’s motive. He wasn’t completely evil for the sake of evil since he ran a business and wanted to live forever. The business is utter BS, but at the end of the day Freeza is a restate agent.

Also, it is a Toyo problem since Toriyama also wrote Beerus, new Broly, and his father. Heck, even Freeza has layer as seen in Resurrection ‘F’, TOP, and Broly Showing he can make layered villains. Toyo showed that he really can’t.

The discussion is not about what makes Freeza work as a villain, but rather that the fact that the author does not explore his past or his motivations does not mean that it is a negative point, because that is what Toriyama did with Freeza. He is cruel, genocidal and wants to rule the whole universe, why? This has never been explored, Frieza is just a charismatic villain, but he is not someone with several layers (not even in RoF). It's not like Naruto's villains. By the way, does Broly and her father have multiple layers? Much of this is only in the imaginary of the people who super analyze the character only because now he is canonical. As an antagonist he did exactly the same as the old Broly, boring and without personality.

And the model of the villains of Toyotaro is similar to that of the Toriyama. This is just being criticized because they use Zamasu's anime to compare as if he were an example of villain as complex as they say

[Block88]

Regardless this arc is losing its luster and Moro abilities being boring isn’t helpful him out.

I was hoping this arc would have something more to it but it seems I had too much expectations for toyo to impress here.

[sora_02]

The saiyan can not breathe in space, but the battle of Goku vs bills was in space and when Bardock tries to prevent Frieza from destroying the planet Vejita

The child is the new patriarch so porunga did not disappear, Uub will have taken the divine part of kid Boo? and we stay in them without knowing what the third wish is

[HeroR]

Freeza is considered one of the best villains of DB and we know absolutely nothing about his past, nor what motivated him to want to rule the universe. Is it just because he is evil, like most of the villains you quoted? His charisma is undeniable, but it is also clear that there is not much development about how he was born and what motivates his actions, just as there is not with most DB antagonists because it is simply Toriyama's style. He even says that Zamasu's characterization of anime is not how he develops his villains (It's not a Toyotaro problem) This is not necessary to make someone a good villain

What made Freeza work despite being shallow was his personality. He acted polite, calm, and complimented strong people. However, under that polite facade was a brutal, sadistic, asshole.

That and again, we know Freeza’s motive. He wasn’t completely evil for the sake of evil since he ran a business and wanted to live forever. The business is utter BS, but at the end of the day Freeza is a restate agent.

Also, it is a Toyo problem since Toriyama also wrote Beerus, new Broly, and his father. Heck, even Freeza has layer as seen in Resurrection ‘F’, TOP, and Broly Showing he can make layered villains. Toyo showed that he really can’t.

The discussion is not about what makes Freeza work as a villain, but rather that the fact that the author does not explore his past or his motivations does not mean that it is a negative point, because that is what Toriyama did with Freeza. He is cruel, genocidal and wants to rule the whole universe, why? This has never been explored, Frieza is just a charismatic villain, but he is not someone with several layers (not even in RoF). It's not like Naruto's villains. By the way, does Broly and her father have multiple layers? Much of this is only in the imaginary of the people who super analyze the character only because now he is canonical. As an antagonist he did exactly the same as the old Broly, boring and without personality.

And the model of the villains of Toyotaro is similar to that of the Toriyama. This is just being criticized because they use Zamasu's anime to compare as if he were an example of villain as complex as they say

Even ignoring what makes Freeza works, we knew his goals and why he did what he did. Which is more than we can say about Moro where we don't know why he does what he does other than he wants to eat planets. He did have layers in Resurrection 'F' since as Freeza himself said, he never had to work for anything in his life and Resurrection 'F' was the first time he ever buckled down trained instead of just relying on his natural talent. Which is again, more than we got from Moro.

Yes. Broly's dad was abusive jerk to Broly, but at the same time you can see that he did care and love his son in his own twisted way and a lot of what he did was to keep Broly from killing himself and him. He went too far, but you understood why he reached that point. Broly is more less a boy in a grown man body who has been controlled and used by his father all his life and his devoted to him despite being aware that his father doesn't treat him right. He's probably one of the more realistic portrayal of an abused victim. There is no way you're going to tell me that either character is like their old counterparts, especially Broly.

Toyo is poor model of Toriyama's old style and Toriyama himself doesn't even used that template anymore. And who's 'they'. You're just going to ignore that Toriyama personally wrote Beerus who was more complex than 'evil god'. Same with Hit who is an assassin by trade, but probably one of the most honorable characters in Dragon Ball? This is reversional history to try to justice why Toyo's villains are so lackluster.