The FUNimation Dub's "Story" Changes

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Vekurotto
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Post by Vekurotto » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Goddamn, doesnt Pokemon use original music, aside from themes?
Yes and no. They used most of the original BGM but filled all of the scenes without music with in-house music because 4kids thought kids watching this were so ADD that if there wasn't any music they'd go insane.
jjgp1112 wrote:While Funi shouldn't have made the dialogue changes, their target audience could care less about whether or not the music is what was originally there or if the dialogue is accurate.
Which is exactly why they didn't have to change anything musically. From what you said, kids are still going to watch whatever's placed in front of them regardless of origin if it's cool. That's why many people, including myself, get pissed at the way Funimation handled themselves with DBZ since it's just pure underestimation on their part about American children and of the audience they were trying to cater to. Like I said to Onikage725 about Pokemon, Funi instantly assumed that all of the kids that would watch DBZ were so ADD that unless there was a bunch of noise playing in the background they wouldn't be able to pay attention to anything which is far from true.
Raki wrote:That line you quoted is pure bullshit to the highest order. I fucking LOVED the original music in Dragonball. As a matter of fact, i prefer the original music in all anime that i view.
Yeah so do I. Pretty much nobody, except 4kids and Disney with Digimon, and Funi with DBZ does BGM rescoring anymore. The model that anime companies follow now is, get the anime, dub it with an accurate script, subtitle the Japanese version, and leave everything else alone. But yeah being told what you would and wouldn't like by some guy in an office desk is infuriating to the nth degree. I remember when I got tried of waiting for Funi to finish the Boo saga and watched the fansubs and I didn't even give a fuck about the music, the voices, or anything, I just wanted to see the episodes. Hell I didn't even know the original dubs of DBZ Movies 1-3 used the original music until 2002, I just wanted to see the damn movies when they came on CN every once in a while. And the thing was, I was in their "demographic" that they said wouldn't like anything about the Japanese version at the time. It really showed how little they knew/know about what kids like when in the end they just didn't have to do anything.
Super Sonic wrote:Some of the original songs they did weren't too bad. I love "Power of Love" and "Oh Starry Night".
Yeah I always heard that if anything from DiC's music, the insert songs they made were actually pretty decent. I don't know for sure since I haven't seen the dub entirely but I will vouch for that.
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Post by B-kun » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:06 pm

Yeah, the DiC dub's crap (it was better in memory, until I actually watched it after years) but I've always liked the insert songs. Which is more than I can say for DBZ and FUNi.

... Incidently, in S and SuperS, when they started keeping the Japanese music, they dubbed over several songs, but it was so half-assed. In the case of "Ai no Senshi", they played the dub AND Japanese song. It was ridiculous.

But, erm, anyway. Japanese goood. FUNI bad. Boo FUNi.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:11 pm

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Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:13 pm

Vekurotto, trust me. ADD or not, as a 9 year old kid, I would have lost interest in long periods of silence.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:16 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Dammit, I made a good point but you guys are more interested in discussing Sailor Moon on a Dragon Ball forum! :x
Well all I have to say about your point is that I disagree with it. So I figured I'd talk about the scary SM music coincidence instead. :P
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Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:17 pm

Naruto, Bleach, and Yu Yu Hakusho all came along when Anime was popular. DBZ came around when Anime was a niche an not really popular. So Funi, a fledgling company, wasn't willing to take chances and only appeal to hardcore Anime fans when there were so few of them at the time.
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Post by Sebastian (SB) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:19 pm

I agree with the fact that the only thing FUNimation's ever accomplished with their Dragon Ball Z "treatment" is permanently segregating the fanbase. It's pretty sad when you go to an anime convention (at a FUNimation panel mind you) only to find the lukewarm response DBZ gets by its panelists. It's really ironic.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:33 pm

Okay I felt I was lazy up above so I'll just expand on the point Onikage made with how kids wouldn't be turned off by the music. I wasn't a kid when I first saw DBZ, but having grown up in Canada's capital which is literally a hop, skip, and a jump from Quebec, I grew up with many French channels. Now these French channels showed lots of shows they got from France of course and France over the years had dubbed and broadcast a lot anime. So I was exposed to anime really early, way before I even knew what it was. Now in these shows, the only thing that was changed was the language(in this case it was dubbed in French obviously). Everything including original music was left intact and in many classic animes from the 80's, the music was similar to the type you hear in DBZ. Never once did I not watch these shows because the music turned me off. The music never even was noticed by me that much, other than listening to the theme music, which never bothered me either. And I was a very musically inclined child. I regularly sung in choirs, loved music, heck my fav bands at 7 years old were The Beatles and The Who. So if any kid would have quickly been affected enough by an anime's music as to turned off by it, it would be me. XD

So there you have it. You've got people pointing out here jjpg that what you and the Funi people assumed is wrong. Quite frankly, I can't stand adults that underestimate and have a patronizing attitude towards kids. Especially since kids know when it's being done to them.
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Post by Vekurotto » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:41 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Vekurotto, trust me. ADD or not, as a 9 year old kid, I would have lost interest in long periods of silence.
That still woundn't have prevented you from watching the show though in 1999 when "Ginyu Assault" aired. Funimation put everybody in a bind by leaving us at Goku vs. Jheese and Butta. When Funi started dubbing things themselves they could've done whatever the fuck they wanted musically, peoples interest in seeing more episodes would've most definitely outweighed the fact that there were long moments of silence. Hell, scenes without music didn't and don't stop kids from watching the Batman and Superman animated series which came out a few years before DBZ's dubs. I remember being all over those shows and I still am. For a cartoon aimed at kids, it's very complex and makes 4kids and FUni's models look ridiculous and out of touch with the general public of children. Just look at how many times there's complex things being discussed and how little they use music in those shows and they are still liked by kids today and possibly by one that are younger than the demographic Funi was aiming for with DBZ.
jjgp1112 wrote:Naruto, Bleach, and Yu Yu Hakusho all came along when Anime was popular. DBZ came around when Anime was a niche an not really popular. So Funi, a fledgling company, wasn't willing to take chances and only appeal to hardcore Anime fans when there were so few of them at the time.
As I said before. When DBZ was first being dubbed that logic was acceptable, but when Funi themselves started dubbing DBZ out of their own pocket in 1999 it was not acceptable. Anime was recognized as being of Japanese origin and there was a demand for dubs to be treated with respect and be as close to the original as possible because then everybody can enjoy it and not just one or two demographics. I don't know if Funi realized it back then but since they picked up DBZ, they officially became part of the anime industry which at the time had to make the public's opinion of anime change from the thought of that it was more than super-children's shows, nonsense, and porn but it was another art form that can be enjoyed by all ages even though it's animated. That's why they released uncut DVDs with a Dub and a professionally translated Japanese and Uncut Dub VHS tapes in the first place. They wanted to show us that "what the people in Japan got, you can get too." Same with the edited dub to a degree. It was lightly edited and some episodes are the same uncut as they are edited. The point is Funi could have either listened to the fanbase's demands, or listened to how other people the anime industry itself were doing things but, as we know, they pretty much only met us half-way.
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Post by Adamant » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:29 am

Vekurotto wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:Goddamn, doesnt Pokemon use original music, aside from themes?
Yes and no. They used most of the original BGM but filled all of the scenes without music with in-house music because 4kids thought kids watching this were so ADD that if there wasn't any music they'd go insane.
No. While the Pokemon dub does use some original music, a lot of it is replaced with in-house music. It's not just use to fill moments of silence. Hell, I think they keep the silence in some of the scenes, even.

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Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:31 am

Well actually, FUNimation was following what was done before. They stayed true to those scripts when redubbing, and used the old dubs as a vehicle, since those made Dragon Ball Z so amazingly popular in the United States. For the 97 team, it was impossible to keep the original Japanese music, so in continuing with that (and because of the first episode that FUNimation did), they decided not to use the original music. Although that problem is solved now. They stayed close to the main story, but do have their moments of straying. But again, none of that prevented from making DBZ incredibly huge in the United States, and thanks to DBZ, FUNimation now is doing tons of Anime. FUNimation started off as a small company with a handful of people that didn't know what they were doing for the most part, because of inexperience. Can't really blame them. Especially since they did DBZ VERY fast. They started airing in September 1999 and by September 2001 were already up to the Great Saiyaman Saga.

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Post by caejones » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:02 am

Vekurotto wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:Let’s look at one of the most significant changes; the score. .... (And no, I don’t buy the “Toei charged us too much money for the score” excuse for a millisecond. There are far too many holes in that story for me to recount here.).
Yeah you're right. It was stated that Funi changed the music on their own on the old DBZOA when Chris interviewed many Funimation employees like Gen and Schemmel and they both said in each interview that Funimation could have used the original BGM in their dub since, when you order an anime for dubbing you get everything that was in the original, but then they said many stupid things about why they didn't use the music like,

"The original BGM is dated", "It wouldn't fit the show the way we want it", "Kids would be turned off to the way the music plays and they'd much prefer blaring guitars and more 'hip' music" "bullshit excuse here" etc....

The fact is, Funimation could have used the music, they didn't, and now they look really fucking stupid for using the original BGM in their dub on the season sets now when they could have just used it almost a decade ago.
Gah, I'm too lazy to read the rest of the thread before posting. T_T.

But, over the past week... my (turned nine in the past twenty four hours) cousin said that the music in the English version is "cooler" than the Japanese (but he still willingly switches to the Japanese audio sometimes).
I think ... the Funi score is supposed to be "cool", and the Japanese score is supposed to be "fun and adventurous". Hm.
Apparently, in America everything has to be awesome instead of fun. Either that or a bunch of tasteless humor and cultural references.
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And... it's obvious that UltimateDBZ is a middleschool student. At least, I hope that's the excuse... :(.
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Post by Super Sonic » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:27 am

Adamant wrote:
Vekurotto wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:Goddamn, doesnt Pokemon use original music, aside from themes?
Yes and no. They used most of the original BGM but filled all of the scenes without music with in-house music because 4kids thought kids watching this were so ADD that if there wasn't any music they'd go insane.
No. While the Pokemon dub does use some original music, a lot of it is replaced with in-house music. It's not just use to fill moments of silence. Hell, I think they keep the silence in some of the scenes, even.
I admit I haven't played the second generation games-onward, but the show had a lot of the same bgm that was in the games. It also while under 4Kids (I hate new company and new voices) had some really good original songs as well.

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Post by DemonKingPiccolo » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:23 am

In the Dub, the constant offscreen chit-chat between characters or character monologues gets really annoying after a while. Especially some of the things that they say is stupid and ridiculous, also sometimes contradicts the story later on. And I can think of one time that they really fuck up, it's in season 4.

In the episode after Goku turns Super Saiyan against Gero and 19, in the opening scene, the camera shifts over to Piccolo from Goku or something and you can hear Gohan's voice offscreen say something like "Wow Dad", and the thing that they fuck up on is that Gohan isn't even there yet! He's still off somewhere with Yamcha and Kuririn looking for Goku, Piccolo and Tenshinhan.
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Post by Onikage725 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:48 am

jjgp1112 wrote:Meh, I always prefered the dub music (not Peter Cunt's score for the Saiyan and Namek saga, Falcouner's music) over the original. I agree with Schemmel about Head-Cha-La: while it sounds catchy, it wouldn't appeal to kids at al. What you guys fail to realize is that Funi was aiming for kids. It's like advertising smoking: hook 'em young and hook 'em good. I first started watching Dragon Ball when I was 9 years old, and most of the kids I know watched it too. I'd say that only one of them knew or cared to know that it was originally Japanese - me included. While Funi shouldn't have made the dialogue changes, their target audience could care less about whether or not the music is what was originally there or if the dialogue is accurate.
Let's see... DB first started here in '95, when I was 12 (yes I watched the Pilaf Saga). I actually did like the music then. But if you think about it, the dub music then actually had a similar vibe to the original's, so I wonder if this was coincidence.

The score for the first two seasons was just noise to me. It was...there. Nothing more, nothing less. Music has always been an important part of my enjoyment process. I consider the package to be the sum of ALL its parts. And it kind of showed that the DBZ dubs really didnt get proper treatment to their musical score. Argue all you want for a demographical need for re-scored music, but we still have to account for quality.

Faulconer's score is NOT high quality stuff. So, some people like it? That's all well and good. I liked the Street Sharks. But I'm not gonna sit here and try to convince anyone that it was shining example of American television. Not everything we like has to be oscar/grammy/emmy quality.

And just a note- my biggest gripe in general with FUNi's treatment is that it splits the fanbase. I watch, for example, Death Note, Naruto, and Guyver in japanese. And I watch, say, Haruhi, Gundam Wing, and Yu Yu Hakusho in english. And you know what? Outside of the occasional super-purist or really off the wall dubbie, these types of debates are few and far between. Sometimes an "I dont like the voices" convo may erupt, but otherwise you're generally on the same page no matter which version you discuss. It is, as it should be, simply a choice of which language you prefer, which group of actors. Even when things arent the exact same its along the same lines (Like in Yu Yu where instead of Immolating Black Dragon Wave the dub has Dragon of the Darkness Flame- some get nitpicky, but its not that far off).

UltimateDBZ was talking earlier about how good it is for FUNi to have dual language DVDs so that we can have "our version." And as a hardcore Tekkaman Blade fan who only just recently got a decent non-Teknoman set, I am highly appreciative. But I still consider it a case of poor dubbing when people have to resort to "well you have your version and we have ours." It is ONE show. FUNimation did not make Dragon Ball. They simply distributed it to english-speaking audiences. Yet whenever you hear them talk about it, they are very proud of the whole "we made our own version" thing. Come on, people... we are talking about the show that turned Freeza, one of the most recognizable villains in the series, from a spoiled ruler voiced by one of the best actors in the cast into a 2 season long gay joke with emphysema.

A friend of mine watches the japanese version, but before the season sets had only seen mostly the dub. He said to me the other day "You know, I always hated Vegeta, and it wasn't until I started watching the season sets in Japanese that I started to like him. In english he's too blunt and loud, and Chris Sabat's voice is grating. Ryo Horikawa plays him smoother and is probably one of the best actors in the cast. And it helps that his lines arent as comical and ridiculous."
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Post by LegendarySSJ7 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:05 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:In the Dub, the constant offscreen chit-chat between characters or character monologues gets really annoying after a while. Especially some of the things that they say is stupid and ridiculous, also sometimes contradicts the story later on. And I can think of one time that they really fuck up, it's in season 4.

In the episode after Goku turns Super Saiyan against Gero and 19, in the opening scene, the camera shifts over to Piccolo from Goku or something and you can hear Gohan's voice offscreen say something like "Wow Dad", and the thing that they fuck up on is that Gohan isn't even there yet! He's still off somewhere with Yamcha and Kuririn looking for Goku, Piccolo and Tenshinhan.
I don't remember this being present at all in the dub, but there is indeed many an occasion of inane dialogue additions. A lot of the time it's to add ludicrous, cringe-inducing comebacks that aren't needed. One particular moment that comes to mind is during the hands-off battle Goku and Freeza initiated in with Young prattling where there was silence. There was also added dialogue when #17 and #18 rebelled against Dr. Gero, such as "planning to use it [the broken remote controller] for spare parts?". If I recollect correctly, I also remember there being added "thoughts" Goku had in regards to Tambourine killing Kuririn as he held him, where if I remember that moment was one of music and silence in the Japanese version. And, of course, just before Gohan goes SS2, we hear Gohan's "dub" thoughts when the original only had Spirit vs. Spirit playing.

A lot of the flashbacks also have narrations where there were quiet moods of silence in the original and the such.

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Post by The Time Traveller » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:35 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:In the Dub, the constant offscreen chit-chat between characters or character monologues gets really annoying after a while. Especially some of the things that they say is stupid and ridiculous, also sometimes contradicts the story later on. And I can think of one time that they really fuck up, it's in season 4.

In the episode after Goku turns Super Saiyan against Gero and 19, in the opening scene, the camera shifts over to Piccolo from Goku or something and you can hear Gohan's voice offscreen say something like "Wow Dad", and the thing that they fuck up on is that Gohan isn't even there yet! He's still off somewhere with Yamcha and Kuririn looking for Goku, Piccolo and Tenshinhan.
Just because no one's face is on screen doesn't mean they should ad more dialogue, they NEED to redo the dub, replace most of the voice actors, shut the fuck up when the Japanese voices shut the fuck up, and call characters by their actual names, like I've never heard them say Son Goku in the english dub. I remember some old one where Bulma says Tienshinhan, that's ALMOST right...

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Post by Graphic » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:07 am

By far one of the funniest pieces of added dialog by FUNi is in episode 128 I believe, during the SSJ Goku and Artificial Human 19 fight.

In the beginning right after Goku hits android 19 through a rock mountain, it shows Tien and he says something and then it switches to Piccolo 's face and all of the sudden you can hear Gohan say,

"Way to go dad!"

Meanwhile, Gohan is nowhere to be found; this is when Gohan, Kuririn, and Yamchu are still looking for Goku and the others.

By far the one of the funnier things I have seen.

Still, the all time ultimate, Ocean dubs Tenshinhan: "Look I can see their parachutes, they're all right."

No...No, actually they aren't, they blowed the hell up Tenshinhan! You should actually put those 3 eyes to use!

But along the point, I think FUNi goes for what best fits children, and what do children have? Short attention spans! Therefore they cannot and will not allow any silence on screen whatsoever, because we all know silence takes away from suspense and drama! (sarcasm) This is why there are always characters talking in between shots and etc. when there should be no dialog at all.

EDIT* Oops someone already beat me to it, but I listed the episode number according to the original JP list, and what Gohan really says.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:47 am

Actually the most annoying instance I can think of where dialogue was added when there wasn't originally any was in the Bardock Special whenever Bardock had his visions. Yes, just plain annoying, along with that damn stupid trancey rock music in the background. It makes one think they're on a 60's acid trip. I just think they went overboard adding that in.

Speaking of, I remember reading somewhere(maybe in Animerica even?) that when they were dubbing that special, Sonny Strait who played Bardock wanted to get a copy of the Japanese version to see how Nozawa portrayed the character. Apparently he couldn't find a copy at all at Funimation and had to settle on the Mexican one. Perhaps it's just another of those "hearsay stories", but it's pretty sad concerning Funi if it is valid.
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Post by Xyex » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:13 am

So...yea... the excuse along the lines of "we can charge more money this way" is the only one that has any hint of truth to it.
Opinion =/= fact, thanks.
Sean Schemmel, on the Japanese theme song "Head-Cha-La":
"Head-Cha-La," for another example and I've told you this Jon, even though it's very catchy, it's absolutely ridiculous for the American culture. (thumbs down Schemmel. Shakes angry fist)
What? He's right, you know. Have you even seen the lyrics? They song's fun and catchy but it's absolutely absurd and really doesn't fit with the show. If they'd have dubbed it or left it as is wth subs.... 85% of the audience would have laughed at it and changed the channel.
Sonny Strait, North American VA for Krillin, on FUNimation's new music score:
I think the main thing about them not using the original music, and I could be wrong, is because of the dated factor of it...But uh, there's definitely an appeal to it, but I don't think that it's as wide a range of appeal as what they want. I mean, people like you, and others that are die-hard anime fans are definitely gonna want as much of the original as possible, but I think the general population is more entertained by screaming guitars and such.
Another solid point. Loud rock music = popular. Orchastrated non rock music = not as popular.
Cindy Fukunaga, on the new music (1996):
No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now.
Yep, it was.
Composer Bruce Faulconer, on the music:
They wanted music that would better communicate to a Western audience the drama of this saga.
And again, correct.
And, of course, just before Gohan goes SS2, we hear Gohan's "dub" thoughts when the original only had Spirit vs. Spirit playing.
Which was an improvement, as far as I was concerned. Nothing but the BGM there was a bad choice on Toei's part. Lack of connection to a character reduces emotional impact~
Avys ~ DA account ~ Fanfiction ~ Chat Quotes
<Kaboom> I'm just glad that he now sounds more like Invader Zim than Rita Repulsa
<Xyex> Original Freeza never sounded like a chick to me.
<Kaboom> Neither does Rita
<Xyex> Good point.

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