Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied

Nothing stated such, but we know in universe the fusion doesn't start at full power if the individuals are weakened. The fusion doesn't seem to show fatigue or damage ala Vegetto, but we know Vegetto had to take a senzu upon fusing to reach FP after Vegeta and Goku were severely weakened after fighting Zamasu.

IIRC Black got beat up by vegeta before he fused with Zamasu

Zamasu is immortal, of the regenerative type. He always recover to full health/power, so the same happened with the fusion.

I wonder how strong Moro actually is. I know the magic is the focal point of his power, but Goku and Vegeta are still convinced the power of Super Saiyan Blue can handle him. Moro was giving Super Saiyan God Vegeta trouble when he was still at his diminished level, so logically he should far beyond that with his power restored.

Apparently, there is a wide gap between SSGod and SSBlue. Boo managed to handle Moro just fine, so he might have surpassed SSGod as well. Moro surpassed Boo/Grand Kaioshin (I don’t know how to call him exactly) but he’s still weaker than SSBlue. His third wish probably grants him the ability to surpass SSBlue.

Moro is phisycally weaker than SSG Vegeta, handling him only because of his magic (and Vegeta being weak to lava, apparently). Buu is immune to his magic, and even have been shreded by Moro's attack, so his eventual overwhelming doesn't mean all that much, only that Buu's gotten much stronger.

As of now, however, Moro have definitely compensated for that weakness. Enough to beat Buu one on one, but apparently still weaker than both Goku and Vegeta at full power, magic aside. I can dig that.

[Block88]

The difference is that the manga had Kale take on several blue tier characters, in the anime only Goku faced her. In the manga it was explained she was losing steam, so she WAS blue tier at first and then started to drop. And as Kefla she was hurt and tired so Kefla was not as strong as possible.
In the anime Kale has only one feat against a blue level character, then herself in a stronger form is shown being below SSGod, and her fusion as SS fighting equally with a tired SSBlue Goku, all supported by the peanut gallery with clear statements like "this Kale is stronger than before", or "Kale and Caulifla's fusion can take SS Blue Goku because he is tired".

If we pretend Berserk Kale's feat were a distraction of an unexpecting person(cheap fanservice with Kale awkwardly yelling Son Goku) then everything pans out, we don't even have to pretend it never happened.
Now, to believe Kale is blue level is the norm, we have to overlook several statements from big and small commentators, Kefla's feats, and basically the path the story followed. Kale being SSBlue level is never supported at all as the show progresses. So I guess it's better to overlook just one scene instead of many scenes.

I’m srry but this nothing but head canon nothing in the manga stated kefla was weakened due to her fusee being hurt at all let alone implied

Right, but is not headcanon, is just simple deduction: Kale was getting beaten up badly by fodder and they fused to avoid her getting ringed out. The point being Kefla (if Kale didn't waste her silver bullet before fusing and wasn't against the ropes) probably would've been stronger than she was.

I get what u mean but if it was implied she wasn’t as strong as she should be etc than I would accept it however it didn’t

[RandomGuy96]

So apparently even absorbing the Grand Kaioshin explicitly made Buu stronger. And the Pure Buu that Goku fought was different than the original, because he had Kaioshin power.

[ZombieVito]

About Boo:

Do people realize that Boo is SS2 tier but from the Boo arc right? That level of power doesn't even reach current base Goku, at all. This is why after training he can now fight on par with base Goku.


About 17:

The guy forced Goku to use a suppressed Blue form so he at minimum is stronger than SSG. No way around that.

Where is this coming from? There is no way and no proof that I'm aware of that ToP Base Goku > SSJ2 Goku in the Buu arc.

Kefla, who I would say is in the ballpark of Buu arc Vegetto required UI to defeat. From what you are saying, Base Goku should have been able to fight Kefla, and maybe even defeat her at SSJ1.

You are also saying Base Goku in the ToP could easily defeat Super Buu.

Also 17... No. He is not Super Saiyan God Level. Goku basically never uses anything outside of SSJ1 and Blue, same with Vegeta. Call it bad writing if you want but they basically never use SSJ2 or 3 or God ever anymore. 17 could be SSJ2/3 Level and Goku would use Blue because it's the new transformation and the writers don't care about lower forms. Unless there is specific dialogue that states that 17 is as strong as SSJG I don't believe it.

I apologize if I'm coming off aggressive. I just don't see the proof of these ludicrous power levels.

Did you not see base Commeson Vegeta make a mockery of SS3 Gotenks?

Base Goku and Vegeta by the ToP can one shot everyone from the Boo arc with the exception of Vegetto.

[Thani]

Well, they seem to have backtracked from that position in later arcs. It's the only way that Trunks could have matched SSJ2 Goku, that Gohan could still be relevant with regular training from Piccolo, etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

While it's SDBH and always weird, Golden Metal Cooler seemed to pretty definitively be stronger than SS3 Cumber in the latest episode, albeit at the cost of overheating pretty easily.

Anyone have anything from the manga or games to contextualize this?

[Triggered Vegeta]

So Golden Metal Cooler >>> SS3 Cumber>\= Base Metal Cooler > Base Cumber>\= SSBkk Vegito

Now I'd wonder who'd win SS4 Vegito or this new cooler? Think it's close!

[Kenneth La Torre]

While it's SDBH and always weird, Golden Metal Cooler seemed to pretty definitively be stronger than SS3 Cumber in the latest episode, albeit at the cost of overheating pretty easily.

Anyone have anything from the manga or games to contextualize this?

The Manga has hakaishin toppo vs ssj3 cumber

[Block88]

While it's SDBH and always weird, Golden Metal Cooler seemed to pretty definitively be stronger than SS3 Cumber in the latest episode, albeit at the cost of overheating pretty easily.

Anyone have anything from the manga or games to contextualize this?

The Manga has hakaishin toppo vs ssj3 cumber

Do we even have scans of them actually fighting cause outside of some scans of them powering up we don’t see the full thing

[ankokudaishogun]

While it's SDBH and always weird, Golden Metal Cooler seemed to pretty definitively be stronger than SS3 Cumber in the latest episode, albeit at the cost of overheating pretty easily.

Anyone have anything from the manga or games to contextualize this?

Arcade isn't updated to those events yet.
Ignore the anime for power-level discussions.

[ZombieVito]

Well, they seem to have backtracked from that position in later arcs. It's the only way that Trunks could have matched SSJ2 Goku, that Gohan could still be relevant with regular training from Piccolo, etc.

Stop using headcanon.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

As far as Heroes is concerned, it seems like there's not really much of a difference between the Xeno characters and their GT counterparts in terms of power. Xeno Gogeta and GT Gogeta were even with each other in terms of power in the manga and I'm guessing it was Fin's abilities that gave him the upper hand.

There not being much difference between Xeno and GT characters could point to some things like Omega Shenron being stronger than the Super Saiyan Blues since Super Saiyan Blue Goku is equal to Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku.

And Boo Arc Vegito being stronger than the Blues as well as portrayed in Legends since Vegito was alluded to be superior to a Super Saiyan 4 in strength. The Legends material and Heroes do seem to be consistent with each other even if maybe by coincidence.

[ankokudaishogun]

And Boo Arc Vegito being stronger than the Blues as well as portrayed in Legends since Vegito was alluded to be superior to a Super Saiyan 4 in strength. The Legends material and Heroes do seem to be consistent with each other even if maybe by coincidence.

Super Saiyan 4 was stated being equivalent to Vegetto(not specified the transformation)
Buu-saga Super Vegetto is stronger than RoF Goku Blue
SS4 Goku:Xeno is slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue

so: Post-ToP Blue>SS4 Xeno>SS4 GT~Buu Saga Super Vegetto>RoF Blue

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

And Boo Arc Vegito being stronger than the Blues as well as portrayed in Legends since Vegito was alluded to be superior to a Super Saiyan 4 in strength. The Legends material and Heroes do seem to be consistent with each other even if maybe by coincidence.

Super Saiyan 4 was stated being equivalent to Vegetto(not specified the transformation)
Buu-saga Super Vegetto is stronger than RoF Goku Blue
SS4 Goku:Xeno is slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue

so: Post-ToP Blue>SS4 Xeno>SS4 GT~Buu Saga Super Vegetto>RoF Blue

Vegito was stated to perhaps be greater than a Super Saiyan 4, not equivalent. Vegito was shown as far stronger than ROF Blue Goku to the point where it took Goku and Vegeta together to match Vegito.

I'm not even sure how you got that chain taking the statements and showings into account.

It's more like:

Super Saiyan Vegito>Post-TOP Super Saiyan Blue Goku=Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku>=GT Super Saiyan 4 Goku>ROF Super Saiyan Blue Goku

[Hugo Boss]

Vegito was stated to perhaps be greater than a Super Saiyan 4, not equivalent. Vegito was shown as far stronger than ROF Blue Goku to the point where it took Goku and Vegeta together to match Vegito.

Knowing this, it’s crazy that Goku didn’t try to merge with Vegeta to fight Beerus in Battle of Gods events.

[Sora Saiyan]

Vegito was stated to perhaps be greater than a Super Saiyan 4, not equivalent. Vegito was shown as far stronger than ROF Blue Goku to the point where it took Goku and Vegeta together to match Vegito.

Knowing this, it’s crazy that Goku didn’t try to merge with Vegeta to fight Beerus in Battle of Gods events.

Well we know he thought about it in BoG, he just decided it wouldn't be enough. SSJG clearly exceeds Gokus expectations.
Considering fusion wasn't enough and SSJG amazed him it's heavily implied that SSJG was better in BoG.

Honestly we basically know how it's meant to work in BoG, and I won't throw it away for a promo anime and a game. Now whether people believe it's been retconned is a different thing entirely.

[Koitsukai]

Vegito was stated to perhaps be greater than a Super Saiyan 4, not equivalent. Vegito was shown as far stronger than ROF Blue Goku to the point where it took Goku and Vegeta together to match Vegito.

Knowing this, it’s crazy that Goku didn’t try to merge with Vegeta to fight Beerus in Battle of Gods events.

Well we know he thought about it in BoG, he just decided it wouldn't be enough. SSJG clearly exceeds Gokus expectations.
Considering fusion wasn't enough and SSJG amazed him it's heavily implied that SSJG was better in BoG.

Honestly we basically know how it's meant to work in BoG, and I won't throw it away for a promo anime and a game. Now whether people believe it's been retconned is a different thing entirely.

This. Games can't retcon the official show, Vegito fighting SSBlue Goku in games isn't changing the fact that SSGod Goku from BoG were to travel back in time and end up when Super Vegito was fighting Gohan Buu, he'd obliterate them both. Anything from Z is dead since SSGod showed up.

On the other hand, SS Vegito from Super should outmatch both SSB just like SS Broly did, but in no way could Z Vegito.

[omegacwa]

Knowing this, it’s crazy that Goku didn’t try to merge with Vegeta to fight Beerus in Battle of Gods events.

Well we know he thought about it in BoG, he just decided it wouldn't be enough. SSJG clearly exceeds Gokus expectations.
Considering fusion wasn't enough and SSJG amazed him it's heavily implied that SSJG was better in BoG.

Honestly we basically know how it's meant to work in BoG, and I won't throw it away for a promo anime and a game. Now whether people believe it's been retconned is a different thing entirely.

This. Games can't retcon the official show, Vegito fighting SSBlue Goku in games isn't changing the fact that SSGod Goku from BoG were to travel back in time and end up when Super Vegito was fighting Gohan Buu, he'd obliterate them both. Anything from Z is dead since SSGod showed up.

On the other hand, SS Vegito from Super should outmatch both SSB just like SS Broly did, but in no way could Z Vegito.

If SSG Goku in BoG is stronger than SSJ Vegetto against Buu that makes the concept of Android 17 being anywhere close to SSG even more ludicrous.

[ankokudaishogun]

note well: the stronger ToP Goku had to go Blue Kaioken x20 after breaking his limits twice before he could be GoD-class
At the very best, Buu-saga Vegetto could go SS3 and become 8 times as strong than Super Vegetto
In the hypothesis Super Vegetto was about twice as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue->about as strong as two Super Saiyan Blue, then his SS3 form would be about 16 times a Super Saiyan Blue.
Therefore weaker than Blue Kaiohken x20.
Therefore not enough to be GoD-class

in short, even Vegetto couldn't defeat Beerus. Which mean Goku was right. Which meant their only chance was, in fact, Super Saiyan God.

Everything fits.

[Sora Saiyan]

note well: the stronger ToP Goku had to go Blue Kaioken x20 after breaking his limits twice before he could be GoD-class
At the very best, Buu-saga Vegetto could go SS3 and become 8 times as strong than Super Vegetto
In the hypothesis Super Vegetto was about twice as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue->about as strong as two Super Saiyan Blue, then his SS3 form would be about 16 times a Super Saiyan Blue.
Therefore weaker than Blue Kaiohken x20.
Therefore not enough to be GoD-class

in short, even Vegetto couldn't defeat Beerus. Which mean Goku was right. Which meant their only chance was, in fact, Super Saiyan God.

Everything fits.

That's not right though. Goku ruled out fusion as he didn't believe it stood a chance against Beerus at the time (we now know Beerus was lying about his power in BoG). We know fusion was in his head during that movie/arc due to that statement. Later SSJG amazes him, and continues to do so throughout the entire fight. There's no way in hell that SSJG is a lot weaker than Vegetto, like I said previously the opposite is actually implied. SSJG forced Beerus to use 70% (lie) and up to 100% in the anime, although that was to cancel out that universe detroying thing. Throughout this fight Goku was amazed by Beerus, which also implies what Goku expected to be Beerus FP at the time of the fusion idea is actually lower than what he had shown in his fight with SSJG, otherwise there's nothing to be amazed by as he only would've only just about hit Gokus expectations. For Goku to rule out Vegetto you could at least believe that he thought about SSJ2 also, as that form should most definitely be accessible by Vegetto, and if he did rule out SSJ2 Vegetto against Beerus fake power we know that SSJG must be above SSJ Vegetto as the 2x multiplier makes it so since SSJG was over half of Beerus power at that point.

All this is without taking into account the drastic increase of SSJB as shown in the fight with Kafla, which seemed to show it being about 50x. Vegetto just can not be 50x stronger than a SSJG, it doesn't work with BoG at all. Hell Vegetto being twice as strong as SSJG doesn't make sense, as that would mean that Goku could've defeated Beerus fake power as Vegetto easily.

Honestly BoG is the only canon source which had some sort of comparison between fusion and SSJG, and it's clear as day in the canon source which is meant to be the more powerful of the two. That line exists in that movie for a reason. It wouldn't surprise me if it has been retconned though, as current DB just can't keep itself consistent.