Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 pm

Before the beginning of the ToP, that thing Jiren did when the tiles where landing and he dodged them backwards and with his eyes closed, was that suppose to be some sort of bootleg version of UI?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 pm
Before the beginning of the ToP, that thing Jiren did when the tiles where landing and he dodged them backwards and with his eyes closed, was that suppose to be some sort of bootleg version of UI?
He didn't dodged. He outright didn't move.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:43 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 pm
Before the beginning of the ToP, that thing Jiren did when the tiles where landing and he dodged them backwards and with his eyes closed, was that suppose to be some sort of bootleg version of UI?
Jiren is skilled enough he was aware none of the tiles would hit him so he didn't bother to dodge.
Doing that without actual thought is UI, but he most likely still need to think some.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:23 pm

So, how strong non-SS Broly actually was?

We have his base form that couldn't keep up with SS Vegeta at first but then forced him to go beyond (maybe if it was Goku he could've turned SS3?) and he is outclassed in front of a SSGod. So his base is at bare mininum stronger than SS2, maybe stronger than SS3, at most weaker than SS God.

He then unlocks the humanoid ohzaru form also called Ikari. Takes a full blow to the face without a flinch and is now giving SSG Vegeta a fight although Vegeta is still quicker and receives no damage, Vegeta manages to get away from Broly unharmed. I assume the punch to the face wasn't meant to be the decisive blow from Vegeta's part.

Goku jumps in, Broly forces him to go SS God where he meets his match, SSGod Goku reduces Broly who undergoes yet another power up that now makes him literally stomp SSGod, he is blue tier as full power controlled Ohzaru.

Did he get, from the ohzaru transformation, like x5 boost first that put him around SSGod Vegeta and later unleashed the missing 5x boost that finally took him up there with SS blue? or did he get a 10x boost first to match Vegeta and another (10x?) boost to stomp God Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:31 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:23 pm
So, how strong non-SS Broly actually was?

We have his base form that couldn't keep up with SS Vegeta at first but then forced him to go beyond (maybe if it was Goku he could've turned SS3?) and he is outclassed in front of a SSGod. So his base is at bare mininum stronger than SS2, maybe stronger than SS3, at most weaker than SS God.

He then unlocks the humanoid ohzaru form also called Ikari. Takes a full blow to the face without a flinch and is now giving SSG Vegeta a fight although Vegeta is still quicker and receives no damage, Vegeta manages to get away from Broly unharmed. I assume the punch to the face wasn't meant to be the decisive blow from Vegeta's part.

Goku jumps in, Broly forces him to go SS God where he meets his match, SSGod Goku reduces Broly who undergoes yet another power up that now makes him literally stomp SSGod, he is blue tier as full power controlled Ohzaru.

Did he get, from the ohzaru transformation, like x5 boost first that put him around SSGod Vegeta and later unleashed the missing 5x boost that finally took him up there with SS blue? or did he get a 10x boost first to match Vegeta and another (10x?) boost to stomp God Goku?
Imo it is more complicated than that. Multipliers alone won't help. We need to take into account that Broly powered up several times in his forms.

In my opinion, Broly powered-up many times. That thing is that while having all this dormant power sealed within him, it was about time he unleashed it. As such, he powered-up whenever there was a difference in strength between him and his rival. I have developed a much larger post, however I will sum it up here for you.

First things first, Broly powered-up 5 times in his Base form.
1) While charging for the first time at Vegeta
2) When he started overpowering Vegeta, with the latter commenting on Broly's superiority
3) After when Vegeta went SSJ, Broly powered-up to match him, however the SSJ boost was far too great
4) After some time, Broly powered-up again, indicating signs of his Wrathful state against Vegeta, with the Prince commenting yet again Broly's superiority
5) Finally, when Vegeta decided to use God, Broly went all out against him by powering-up for a final time, without getting the advantage as SSJG is a massive increase in the user's power

These power-ups would only make sense if Broly got around 3 times stronger with each one. In the beginning he was probably even below Vegeta, then he became stronger but Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. The he got even more power, so Vegeta resorted to SSJ. With Broly's third power-up, he was able to go around 50% of Vegeta's current power, with the Prince still having control of the fight. Then, when Wrathful came in with it's sign, Broly overpowered Vegeta, thus he should be above SSJ level now. Vegeta went God and despite Broly's final power-up, which elevated him to an even higher level, Vegeta one-punched him.

Then, Broly went Wrathful. In my opinion the Wrathful state has 2 stages and I believe most people ackowledge that. The first state which is like a powered-up Base form is the first stage, with it offering the Great Ape ×10 boost, as hinted by Paragus. Then the second stage is more akin to an A-type SSJ, perhaps a homage to the original Broly using the form. Bigger muscles, spiked hair etc. This form, like the A-type is a manifestation of the Saiyan's SSJ. So when it comes to a multiplier, I use the same one as with the Pseudo SSJ, that being a ×25 Base or ×2.5 Great Ape/Wrathful.

So:
1) Broly went Wrathful (×10) and countered a supressed God Vegeta's punch. He was supressed, no way he wasn't. Broly was strong, but Vegeta took many hits and remained unscathed, with Goku immediately interupting the fight
2) Then he powered-up to the second stage of the form, gaining a ×2.5 increase to face off against Goku. Goku in Base and in SSJ was totally overpowered. So he went God.
3) Broly got a small rage boost and due to his adaptability, he caught Goku off guard by immitating his attack. Now Goku went full God against Broly, with the two clashing, and Broly powering-up in his Wrathful stage II, for the first time. This should be a ×2 increase, as he pretty much tanked the attacks that previously hurt him in the same state. The fight between the two was very close
4) And so Broly went for another, second power-up of the same level ×2 and with Goku loosing his footing, he went berserk on him, meaning that he was now above God level.

This is evident when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue. He initially charges at Broly, with the "Legendary" Saiyan using his full power against the God Saiyan. They exchange many blows, but Goku seems to have the advantage and by the time Broly reaches his maximum power, Blue Goku has no difficulty fighting him, meaning that despite being stronger than God, Broly is not stronger than Blue. During this fight, Broly doesn't power-up and neither does Goku. Even during the end of the fight Vegeta questions why Goku isn't finishing Broly off, as he had the strength to do so. And then, it happens. Freeza kills Paragus and Broly is left with rage and sorrow. This time it is special. It isn't only a new form, but also a power-up at the same time. C-type SSJ is itself a manifestation of the Full Power form, yet it is reminiscent of the Grade 1 and 4 SSJs used by normal Saiyans, so it also has a multiplier of ×50 on top of it's user's Base. However, Broly also gets a minimum of a ×2 times power-up from his rage boost. Not to be confused with the multiplier of the form though. This would place him on par with several SSJB level characters, even if his Wrathful stage II power was below that of a Full Potential SSJB. This would also explain why he countered attacks from 2 SSJBs with such ease. If he was to power-up 50 times on top of his Wrathful, then no way would Goku and Vegeta be able to fight him the way they did and no way would True Golden Freeza survive one hour of fighting with Broly. Of course Freeza in said state should be on par with SSJBs Goku and Vegeta.

Basically:

1) Broly powers-up to get a boost from his rage, a ×2 times to be exact
2) Broly receives a ×2 multiplier on top of his Wrathful Stage II, to unlock his C-type SSJ which multiplies his Base form by 50 times.

Finally, we get to the fight between Broly and Gogeta. Gogeta Blue is a monster, so there is not need to compare Broly's power as a FP SSJ with that of Gogeta Blue's. However, upon entering the state Broly gets a final multiplication of 2 to get a ×100 of his Base. He is using the true SSJ. Which is why he gets such a multiplier. This would be an overkill for Blue Goku and Vegeta, even with the help of True Golden Freeza, but Gogeta Blue is a different case. The fight resumes, however Broly is beaten up and whenever he is seen powering-up, he is desperately trying to use his full power against Gogeta, so he never gets any stronger than what he initially powered-up into.

Ultimately:
1) Broly goes FP nad gets a ×2 multiplier on top of his C-type to get a ×100 times multiplier on top of his Base form.

It may sound as too much, however this is what someone should expect from Broly. He has all this untaped potential and this "legendary" background, which although has been retconed, is still in existence. Or Broly would simply be just another Saiyan. He required all these power-ups to unlock his hidden potential and Vegeta with Goku, the Saiyans that achieved Godly levels of power, were the perfect opportunity for Broly to raise his power to a level beyond his past limitations (considering that against Paragus, Broly should hsve supressed his power infinitely).

So his Base is either high SSJ2, mid SSJ3. After all the powerups of course.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:23 pm
So, how strong non-SS Broly actually was?
If you mean everything before Super Saiyan he capped at SSBlue’s level. He started at Base Vegeta’s level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:31 am

Imo it is more complicated than that. Multipliers alone won't help. We need to take into account that Broly powered up several times in his forms.

In my opinion, Broly powered-up many times. That thing is that while having all this dormant power sealed within him, it was about time he unleashed it. As such, he powered-up whenever there was a difference in strength between him and his rival. I have developed a much larger post, however I will sum it up here for you.

First things first, Broly powered-up 5 times in his Base form.
1) While charging for the first time at Vegeta
2) When he started overpowering Vegeta, with the latter commenting on Broly's superiority
3) After when Vegeta went SSJ, Broly powered-up to match him, however the SSJ boost was far too great
4) After some time, Broly powered-up again, indicating signs of his Wrathful state against Vegeta, with the Prince commenting yet again Broly's superiority
5) Finally, when Vegeta decided to use God, Broly went all out against him by powering-up for a final time, without getting the advantage as SSJG is a massive increase in the user's power

These power-ups would only make sense if Broly got around 3 times stronger with each one. In the beginning he was probably even below Vegeta, then he became stronger but Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. The he got even more power, so Vegeta resorted to SSJ. With Broly's third power-up, he was able to go around 50% of Vegeta's current power, with the Prince still having control of the fight. Then, when Wrathful came in with it's sign, Broly overpowered Vegeta, thus he should be above SSJ level now. Vegeta went God and despite Broly's final power-up, which elevated him to an even higher level, Vegeta one-punched him.

Then, Broly went Wrathful. In my opinion the Wrathful state has 2 stages and I believe most people ackowledge that. The first state which is like a powered-up Base form is the first stage, with it offering the Great Ape ×10 boost, as hinted by Paragus. Then the second stage is more akin to an A-type SSJ, perhaps a homage to the original Broly using the form. Bigger muscles, spiked hair etc. This form, like the A-type is a manifestation of the Saiyan's SSJ. So when it comes to a multiplier, I use the same one as with the Pseudo SSJ, that being a ×25 Base or ×2.5 Great Ape/Wrathful.

So:
1) Broly went Wrathful (×10) and countered a supressed God Vegeta's punch. He was supressed, no way he wasn't. Broly was strong, but Vegeta took many hits and remained unscathed, with Goku immediately interupting the fight
2) Then he powered-up to the second stage of the form, gaining a ×2.5 increase to face off against Goku. Goku in Base and in SSJ was totally overpowered. So he went God.
3) Broly got a small rage boost and due to his adaptability, he caught Goku off guard by immitating his attack. Now Goku went full God against Broly, with the two clashing, and Broly powering-up in his Wrathful stage II, for the first time. This should be a ×2 increase, as he pretty much tanked the attacks that previously hurt him in the same state. The fight between the two was very close
4) And so Broly went for another, second power-up of the same level ×2 and with Goku loosing his footing, he went berserk on him, meaning that he was now above God level.

This is evident when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue. He initially charges at Broly, with the "Legendary" Saiyan using his full power against the God Saiyan. They exchange many blows, but Goku seems to have the advantage and by the time Broly reaches his maximum power, Blue Goku has no difficulty fighting him, meaning that despite being stronger than God, Broly is not stronger than Blue. During this fight, Broly doesn't power-up and neither does Goku. Even during the end of the fight Vegeta questions why Goku isn't finishing Broly off, as he had the strength to do so. And then, it happens. Freeza kills Paragus and Broly is left with rage and sorrow. This time it is special. It isn't only a new form, but also a power-up at the same time. C-type SSJ is itself a manifestation of the Full Power form, yet it is reminiscent of the Grade 1 and 4 SSJs used by normal Saiyans, so it also has a multiplier of ×50 on top of it's user's Base. However, Broly also gets a minimum of a ×2 times power-up from his rage boost. Not to be confused with the multiplier of the form though. This would place him on par with several SSJB level characters, even if his Wrathful stage II power was below that of a Full Potential SSJB. This would also explain why he countered attacks from 2 SSJBs with such ease. If he was to power-up 50 times on top of his Wrathful, then no way would Goku and Vegeta be able to fight him the way they did and no way would True Golden Freeza survive one hour of fighting with Broly. Of course Freeza in said state should be on par with SSJBs Goku and Vegeta.

Basically:

1) Broly powers-up to get a boost from his rage, a ×2 times to be exact
2) Broly receives a ×2 multiplier on top of his Wrathful Stage II, to unlock his C-type SSJ which multiplies his Base form by 50 times.

Finally, we get to the fight between Broly and Gogeta. Gogeta Blue is a monster, so there is not need to compare Broly's power as a FP SSJ with that of Gogeta Blue's. However, upon entering the state Broly gets a final multiplication of 2 to get a ×100 of his Base. He is using the true SSJ. Which is why he gets such a multiplier. This would be an overkill for Blue Goku and Vegeta, even with the help of True Golden Freeza, but Gogeta Blue is a different case. The fight resumes, however Broly is beaten up and whenever he is seen powering-up, he is desperately trying to use his full power against Gogeta, so he never gets any stronger than what he initially powered-up into.

Ultimately:
1) Broly goes FP nad gets a ×2 multiplier on top of his C-type to get a ×100 times multiplier on top of his Base form.

It may sound as too much, however this is what someone should expect from Broly. He has all this untaped potential and this "legendary" background, which although has been retconed, is still in existence. Or Broly would simply be just another Saiyan. He required all these power-ups to unlock his hidden potential and Vegeta with Goku, the Saiyans that achieved Godly levels of power, were the perfect opportunity for Broly to raise his power to a level beyond his past limitations (considering that against Paragus, Broly should hsve supressed his power infinitely).

So his Base is either high SSJ2, mid SSJ3. After all the powerups of course.

I see, his base unleashed is higher than anything Vegeta and probably Goku can put up without resorting to god ki.

He gets in his Ikari-Wrathful stage, that matched SSGod Vegeta and was taken down by God Goku, the regular x10 boost of the Ohzaru. He keeps getting rage boosts now and then, explaining how he never loses ground.

His second stage of the controlled ape form which finally destroys God Goku is where I'm confused. We know from Jiren needing one finger against God and then having to actually move against Blue that there is quite a gap there. How much of a multiplier do you think Broly got in order to close that gap? x2 after the original x10 boost? I believe, in the manga, Blue is x10 SSGod, I don't remember exactly, so x2 boost to go from God to Blue sounds not enough to me. I know I'm mixing mediums basing the power of Blue from the anime and the boost from the manga when they aren't the same power levels, but the manga low-balls it, I think the anime has a bigger boost, so at least it should be x10, right? or a x2 boost could actually get you from SSG to SSB? If God Goku and Broly were even, and Broly gets x2 stronger, then Blue's x10 should be one shotting Broly, am I making any sense? unless Blue is just x2 SSGod, x2.5 maybe? or could it be that his Ohzaru boost was bigger the second time, against Goku, than it initially was against God Vegeta? I'm not sure if SS3 is further from God than God is from Blue.

Then Broly goes SS (Toriyama's SS4) and I always thought he got the SS multiplier on top of his blue tier Ikari form, but you are right x50 boost does sound like Freeza would immediately die against him and that never happened. Also Goku and Vegeta, although outclassed, managed to land a few(few) blows on him. A x2 boost I guess fits better with the fight's development. A 50x boost was SS2 Gohan against Cell Jrs and the movie had nothing like that.

FP Broly's final power up against Gogeta to me it felt like when you charge your ki to the max in videogames to be able to spam freely, not really a power up in the usual sense, more like just being fully prepared.

So, Base Broly = monster
Ikari Broly = x10 base
Ikari II Broly = x20 base?
SS = x50 base
FP SS = x100 base?

I feel I'm contradicting myself somewhere :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:43 pm

It should be pointed out that Broli was drawing power from his Great Ape humanoid form as soon as Vegeta started overpowering him with Super Saiyan. Actually, his base was a little bit stronger than Vegeta’s. His Great Ape humanoid form is what we view as modern SS4. Going SS on top of that is just overboard.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:18 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:31 am

Imo it is more complicated than that. Multipliers alone won't help. We need to take into account that Broly powered up several times in his forms.

In my opinion, Broly powered-up many times. That thing is that while having all this dormant power sealed within him, it was about time he unleashed it. As such, he powered-up whenever there was a difference in strength between him and his rival. I have developed a much larger post, however I will sum it up here for you.

First things first, Broly powered-up 5 times in his Base form.
1) While charging for the first time at Vegeta
2) When he started overpowering Vegeta, with the latter commenting on Broly's superiority
3) After when Vegeta went SSJ, Broly powered-up to match him, however the SSJ boost was far too great
4) After some time, Broly powered-up again, indicating signs of his Wrathful state against Vegeta, with the Prince commenting yet again Broly's superiority
5) Finally, when Vegeta decided to use God, Broly went all out against him by powering-up for a final time, without getting the advantage as SSJG is a massive increase in the user's power

These power-ups would only make sense if Broly got around 3 times stronger with each one. In the beginning he was probably even below Vegeta, then he became stronger but Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. The he got even more power, so Vegeta resorted to SSJ. With Broly's third power-up, he was able to go around 50% of Vegeta's current power, with the Prince still having control of the fight. Then, when Wrathful came in with it's sign, Broly overpowered Vegeta, thus he should be above SSJ level now. Vegeta went God and despite Broly's final power-up, which elevated him to an even higher level, Vegeta one-punched him.

Then, Broly went Wrathful. In my opinion the Wrathful state has 2 stages and I believe most people ackowledge that. The first state which is like a powered-up Base form is the first stage, with it offering the Great Ape ×10 boost, as hinted by Paragus. Then the second stage is more akin to an A-type SSJ, perhaps a homage to the original Broly using the form. Bigger muscles, spiked hair etc. This form, like the A-type is a manifestation of the Saiyan's SSJ. So when it comes to a multiplier, I use the same one as with the Pseudo SSJ, that being a ×25 Base or ×2.5 Great Ape/Wrathful.

So:
1) Broly went Wrathful (×10) and countered a supressed God Vegeta's punch. He was supressed, no way he wasn't. Broly was strong, but Vegeta took many hits and remained unscathed, with Goku immediately interupting the fight
2) Then he powered-up to the second stage of the form, gaining a ×2.5 increase to face off against Goku. Goku in Base and in SSJ was totally overpowered. So he went God.
3) Broly got a small rage boost and due to his adaptability, he caught Goku off guard by immitating his attack. Now Goku went full God against Broly, with the two clashing, and Broly powering-up in his Wrathful stage II, for the first time. This should be a ×2 increase, as he pretty much tanked the attacks that previously hurt him in the same state. The fight between the two was very close
4) And so Broly went for another, second power-up of the same level ×2 and with Goku loosing his footing, he went berserk on him, meaning that he was now above God level.

This is evident when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue. He initially charges at Broly, with the "Legendary" Saiyan using his full power against the God Saiyan. They exchange many blows, but Goku seems to have the advantage and by the time Broly reaches his maximum power, Blue Goku has no difficulty fighting him, meaning that despite being stronger than God, Broly is not stronger than Blue. During this fight, Broly doesn't power-up and neither does Goku. Even during the end of the fight Vegeta questions why Goku isn't finishing Broly off, as he had the strength to do so. And then, it happens. Freeza kills Paragus and Broly is left with rage and sorrow. This time it is special. It isn't only a new form, but also a power-up at the same time. C-type SSJ is itself a manifestation of the Full Power form, yet it is reminiscent of the Grade 1 and 4 SSJs used by normal Saiyans, so it also has a multiplier of ×50 on top of it's user's Base. However, Broly also gets a minimum of a ×2 times power-up from his rage boost. Not to be confused with the multiplier of the form though. This would place him on par with several SSJB level characters, even if his Wrathful stage II power was below that of a Full Potential SSJB. This would also explain why he countered attacks from 2 SSJBs with such ease. If he was to power-up 50 times on top of his Wrathful, then no way would Goku and Vegeta be able to fight him the way they did and no way would True Golden Freeza survive one hour of fighting with Broly. Of course Freeza in said state should be on par with SSJBs Goku and Vegeta.

Basically:

1) Broly powers-up to get a boost from his rage, a ×2 times to be exact
2) Broly receives a ×2 multiplier on top of his Wrathful Stage II, to unlock his C-type SSJ which multiplies his Base form by 50 times.

Finally, we get to the fight between Broly and Gogeta. Gogeta Blue is a monster, so there is not need to compare Broly's power as a FP SSJ with that of Gogeta Blue's. However, upon entering the state Broly gets a final multiplication of 2 to get a ×100 of his Base. He is using the true SSJ. Which is why he gets such a multiplier. This would be an overkill for Blue Goku and Vegeta, even with the help of True Golden Freeza, but Gogeta Blue is a different case. The fight resumes, however Broly is beaten up and whenever he is seen powering-up, he is desperately trying to use his full power against Gogeta, so he never gets any stronger than what he initially powered-up into.

Ultimately:
1) Broly goes FP nad gets a ×2 multiplier on top of his C-type to get a ×100 times multiplier on top of his Base form.

It may sound as too much, however this is what someone should expect from Broly. He has all this untaped potential and this "legendary" background, which although has been retconed, is still in existence. Or Broly would simply be just another Saiyan. He required all these power-ups to unlock his hidden potential and Vegeta with Goku, the Saiyans that achieved Godly levels of power, were the perfect opportunity for Broly to raise his power to a level beyond his past limitations (considering that against Paragus, Broly should hsve supressed his power infinitely).

So his Base is either high SSJ2, mid SSJ3. After all the powerups of course.

I see, his base unleashed is higher than anything Vegeta and probably Goku can put up without resorting to god ki.

He gets in his Ikari-Wrathful stage, that matched SSGod Vegeta and was taken down by God Goku, the regular x10 boost of the Ohzaru. He keeps getting rage boosts now and then, explaining how he never loses ground.

His second stage of the controlled ape form which finally destroys God Goku is where I'm confused. We know from Jiren needing one finger against God and then having to actually move against Blue that there is quite a gap there. How much of a multiplier do you think Broly got in order to close that gap? x2 after the original x10 boost? I believe, in the manga, Blue is x10 SSGod, I don't remember exactly, so x2 boost to go from God to Blue sounds not enough to me. I know I'm mixing mediums basing the power of Blue from the anime and the boost from the manga when they aren't the same power levels, but the manga low-balls it, I think the anime has a bigger boost, so at least it should be x10, right? or a x2 boost could actually get you from SSG to SSB? If God Goku and Broly were even, and Broly gets x2 stronger, then Blue's x10 should be one shotting Broly, am I making any sense? unless Blue is just x2 SSGod, x2.5 maybe? or could it be that his Ohzaru boost was bigger the second time, against Goku, than it initially was against God Vegeta? I'm not sure if SS3 is further from God than God is from Blue.

Then Broly goes SS (Toriyama's SS4) and I always thought he got the SS multiplier on top of his blue tier Ikari form, but you are right x50 boost does sound like Freeza would immediately die against him and that never happened. Also Goku and Vegeta, although outclassed, managed to land a few(few) blows on him. A x2 boost I guess fits better with the fight's development. A 50x boost was SS2 Gohan against Cell Jrs and the movie had nothing like that.

FP Broly's final power up against Gogeta to me it felt like when you charge your ki to the max in videogames to be able to spam freely, not really a power up in the usual sense, more like just being fully prepared.

So, Base Broly = monster
Ikari Broly = x10 base
Ikari II Broly = x20 base?
SS = x50 base
FP SS = x100 base?

I feel I'm contradicting myself somewhere :think:
Not really. I initially had Wrathful II Broly at ×20 but to make it better with the numbers, I made it a ×25. The rest we can agree on. As for your thoughts on God, I inevitably mixed some headcannon there.

In the Manga it is somewhat implied that Blue equals 5 times God. To be honest, I see no problem with this logic in the anime. Blue can be ×5 God.

As for Broly's fight with God Goku, his initial power in the Wrathful II state wouldn't be enough to force Goku to go Blue. While fighting a relaxed God Goku, this is his actual power of the state. But then, he powers up and gets at least 2 times stronger. Things get even. Then he powers up again and gets at least another 2 times stronger, or 4 times his initial Wrathful II state.

Basically, we got a low SSJ3 level Base Broly (taking into account all powerups). He goes Wrathful I and gets the standard ×10 on top of his Base. He nearly immediately goes Wrathful II and gets the full power of the stage. A 2.5× Wrathful I. This puts his low SSJ3 Base at a multiplier of ×25. Keep this in mind.

What do I have for SSJG matters for my theory. I have established a multiplier for SSJG which makes sense. It is the sum of the multiplier of 5 Super Saiyans, multiplied by the multiplier of a sixth one (the one who receives the energy). Meaning 250×50=12500. My SSJG multiplier is 12500 ×Base.

Back to our main point. Broly's Base should be at a ×400 (highball) level of Goku's and Vegeta's Bases. 25 times that equals 10000 ×Base Goku or Vegeta. SSJG has a multiplier of 12500, which is why Goku can casually fight Broly. The latter adapts and from a instant Rage Boost overpowers God Goku and his technique, confusing the latter and trapping him in his own attack. At this point Broly powers up and gets as I told you a 2 times increase. This places him above God Goku, but it was made clear in this movie that superior skills can earn you some great ground in fighting. Goku struggles with God's full power and Broly counters easily. Broly powers up again and gets 40000× Base. Goku loses his footing and gets wrecked. He goes into Blue.

With the multiplier for SSJG that I have and Blue being 5×God, this places Blue at 62500×Base. Broly can't powerup more. Goku is above him. This is the power gap that made Vegeta feel uneasy with Goku not killing Broly. He was around 70% Blue. Enough for a challenging fight, but enough to show a clear victor.

C-type is special. Not only is it a manifestation of Broly's true SSJ power, thus functions like the False SSJ, regular SSJ in comparison to SSJ2 etc, but it is just the standard multiplier. ×50 Base. only 2 times stronger you would say. But even so, he shouldn't be able to fight with Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue like that for so long. Neither hold back the supposedly superior to Blue, True Golden Freeza. He also gets a powerup from the transformation sequence. The standard 2 times one. No need to highball.

THIS places him at a ×4 of his fully powered (with all powerups accounted) Wrathful II state from the fight with Goku. He is now stronger than two SSJBs together. Not by much, but he is. Besides, as you said Goku and Vegeta managed to deal some damage, but Broly was going berserk and thus didn't indicate any reaction to that damage.

For FP SSJ Broly, he reaches his peak. No more powerups. Just another 2 times multiplier. The end. From that point he can't go further. He simply tries to recover his lost power through the fight with Gogeta. Broly only gets weaker by the second. At this point, I would say that he should be on the level of a Blue Kaio Ken ×10 Goku from the end of the movie. It doesn't seem much, but imo, Broly can defeat anyone in the Top below 2nd Ultra Instinct Omen Goku with ease.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:53 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:18 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:31 am

Imo it is more complicated than that. Multipliers alone won't help. We need to take into account that Broly powered up several times in his forms.

In my opinion, Broly powered-up many times. That thing is that while having all this dormant power sealed within him, it was about time he unleashed it. As such, he powered-up whenever there was a difference in strength between him and his rival. I have developed a much larger post, however I will sum it up here for you.

First things first, Broly powered-up 5 times in his Base form.
1) While charging for the first time at Vegeta
2) When he started overpowering Vegeta, with the latter commenting on Broly's superiority
3) After when Vegeta went SSJ, Broly powered-up to match him, however the SSJ boost was far too great
4) After some time, Broly powered-up again, indicating signs of his Wrathful state against Vegeta, with the Prince commenting yet again Broly's superiority
5) Finally, when Vegeta decided to use God, Broly went all out against him by powering-up for a final time, without getting the advantage as SSJG is a massive increase in the user's power

These power-ups would only make sense if Broly got around 3 times stronger with each one. In the beginning he was probably even below Vegeta, then he became stronger but Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. The he got even more power, so Vegeta resorted to SSJ. With Broly's third power-up, he was able to go around 50% of Vegeta's current power, with the Prince still having control of the fight. Then, when Wrathful came in with it's sign, Broly overpowered Vegeta, thus he should be above SSJ level now. Vegeta went God and despite Broly's final power-up, which elevated him to an even higher level, Vegeta one-punched him.

Then, Broly went Wrathful. In my opinion the Wrathful state has 2 stages and I believe most people ackowledge that. The first state which is like a powered-up Base form is the first stage, with it offering the Great Ape ×10 boost, as hinted by Paragus. Then the second stage is more akin to an A-type SSJ, perhaps a homage to the original Broly using the form. Bigger muscles, spiked hair etc. This form, like the A-type is a manifestation of the Saiyan's SSJ. So when it comes to a multiplier, I use the same one as with the Pseudo SSJ, that being a ×25 Base or ×2.5 Great Ape/Wrathful.

So:
1) Broly went Wrathful (×10) and countered a supressed God Vegeta's punch. He was supressed, no way he wasn't. Broly was strong, but Vegeta took many hits and remained unscathed, with Goku immediately interupting the fight
2) Then he powered-up to the second stage of the form, gaining a ×2.5 increase to face off against Goku. Goku in Base and in SSJ was totally overpowered. So he went God.
3) Broly got a small rage boost and due to his adaptability, he caught Goku off guard by immitating his attack. Now Goku went full God against Broly, with the two clashing, and Broly powering-up in his Wrathful stage II, for the first time. This should be a ×2 increase, as he pretty much tanked the attacks that previously hurt him in the same state. The fight between the two was very close
4) And so Broly went for another, second power-up of the same level ×2 and with Goku loosing his footing, he went berserk on him, meaning that he was now above God level.

This is evident when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue. He initially charges at Broly, with the "Legendary" Saiyan using his full power against the God Saiyan. They exchange many blows, but Goku seems to have the advantage and by the time Broly reaches his maximum power, Blue Goku has no difficulty fighting him, meaning that despite being stronger than God, Broly is not stronger than Blue. During this fight, Broly doesn't power-up and neither does Goku. Even during the end of the fight Vegeta questions why Goku isn't finishing Broly off, as he had the strength to do so. And then, it happens. Freeza kills Paragus and Broly is left with rage and sorrow. This time it is special. It isn't only a new form, but also a power-up at the same time. C-type SSJ is itself a manifestation of the Full Power form, yet it is reminiscent of the Grade 1 and 4 SSJs used by normal Saiyans, so it also has a multiplier of ×50 on top of it's user's Base. However, Broly also gets a minimum of a ×2 times power-up from his rage boost. Not to be confused with the multiplier of the form though. This would place him on par with several SSJB level characters, even if his Wrathful stage II power was below that of a Full Potential SSJB. This would also explain why he countered attacks from 2 SSJBs with such ease. If he was to power-up 50 times on top of his Wrathful, then no way would Goku and Vegeta be able to fight him the way they did and no way would True Golden Freeza survive one hour of fighting with Broly. Of course Freeza in said state should be on par with SSJBs Goku and Vegeta.

Basically:

1) Broly powers-up to get a boost from his rage, a ×2 times to be exact
2) Broly receives a ×2 multiplier on top of his Wrathful Stage II, to unlock his C-type SSJ which multiplies his Base form by 50 times.

Finally, we get to the fight between Broly and Gogeta. Gogeta Blue is a monster, so there is not need to compare Broly's power as a FP SSJ with that of Gogeta Blue's. However, upon entering the state Broly gets a final multiplication of 2 to get a ×100 of his Base. He is using the true SSJ. Which is why he gets such a multiplier. This would be an overkill for Blue Goku and Vegeta, even with the help of True Golden Freeza, but Gogeta Blue is a different case. The fight resumes, however Broly is beaten up and whenever he is seen powering-up, he is desperately trying to use his full power against Gogeta, so he never gets any stronger than what he initially powered-up into.

Ultimately:
1) Broly goes FP nad gets a ×2 multiplier on top of his C-type to get a ×100 times multiplier on top of his Base form.

It may sound as too much, however this is what someone should expect from Broly. He has all this untaped potential and this "legendary" background, which although has been retconed, is still in existence. Or Broly would simply be just another Saiyan. He required all these power-ups to unlock his hidden potential and Vegeta with Goku, the Saiyans that achieved Godly levels of power, were the perfect opportunity for Broly to raise his power to a level beyond his past limitations (considering that against Paragus, Broly should hsve supressed his power infinitely).

So his Base is either high SSJ2, mid SSJ3. After all the powerups of course.

I see, his base unleashed is higher than anything Vegeta and probably Goku can put up without resorting to god ki.

He gets in his Ikari-Wrathful stage, that matched SSGod Vegeta and was taken down by God Goku, the regular x10 boost of the Ohzaru. He keeps getting rage boosts now and then, explaining how he never loses ground.

His second stage of the controlled ape form which finally destroys God Goku is where I'm confused. We know from Jiren needing one finger against God and then having to actually move against Blue that there is quite a gap there. How much of a multiplier do you think Broly got in order to close that gap? x2 after the original x10 boost? I believe, in the manga, Blue is x10 SSGod, I don't remember exactly, so x2 boost to go from God to Blue sounds not enough to me. I know I'm mixing mediums basing the power of Blue from the anime and the boost from the manga when they aren't the same power levels, but the manga low-balls it, I think the anime has a bigger boost, so at least it should be x10, right? or a x2 boost could actually get you from SSG to SSB? If God Goku and Broly were even, and Broly gets x2 stronger, then Blue's x10 should be one shotting Broly, am I making any sense? unless Blue is just x2 SSGod, x2.5 maybe? or could it be that his Ohzaru boost was bigger the second time, against Goku, than it initially was against God Vegeta? I'm not sure if SS3 is further from God than God is from Blue.

Then Broly goes SS (Toriyama's SS4) and I always thought he got the SS multiplier on top of his blue tier Ikari form, but you are right x50 boost does sound like Freeza would immediately die against him and that never happened. Also Goku and Vegeta, although outclassed, managed to land a few(few) blows on him. A x2 boost I guess fits better with the fight's development. A 50x boost was SS2 Gohan against Cell Jrs and the movie had nothing like that.

FP Broly's final power up against Gogeta to me it felt like when you charge your ki to the max in videogames to be able to spam freely, not really a power up in the usual sense, more like just being fully prepared.

So, Base Broly = monster
Ikari Broly = x10 base
Ikari II Broly = x20 base?
SS = x50 base
FP SS = x100 base?

I feel I'm contradicting myself somewhere :think:
Not really. I initially had Wrathful II Broly at ×20 but to make it better with the numbers, I made it a ×25. The rest we can agree on. As for your thoughts on God, I inevitably mixed some headcannon there.

In the Manga it is somewhat implied that Blue equals 5 times God. To be honest, I see no problem with this logic in the anime. Blue can be ×5 God.

As for Broly's fight with God Goku, his initial power in the Wrathful II state wouldn't be enough to force Goku to go Blue. While fighting a relaxed God Goku, this is his actual power of the state. But then, he powers up and gets at least 2 times stronger. Things get even. Then he powers up again and gets at least another 2 times stronger, or 4 times his initial Wrathful II state.

Basically, we got a low SSJ3 level Base Broly (taking into account all powerups). He goes Wrathful I and gets the standard ×10 on top of his Base. He nearly immediately goes Wrathful II and gets the full power of the stage. A 2.5× Wrathful I. This puts his low SSJ3 Base at a multiplier of ×25. Keep this in mind.

What do I have for SSJG matters for my theory. I have established a multiplier for SSJG which makes sense. It is the sum of the multiplier of 5 Super Saiyans, multiplied by the multiplier of a sixth one (the one who receives the energy). Meaning 250×50=12500. My SSJG multiplier is 12500 ×Base.

Back to our main point. Broly's Base should be at a ×400 (highball) level of Goku's and Vegeta's Bases. 25 times that equals 10000 ×Base Goku or Vegeta. SSJG has a multiplier of 12500, which is why Goku can casually fight Broly. The latter adapts and from a instant Rage Boost overpowers God Goku and his technique, confusing the latter and trapping him in his own attack. At this point Broly powers up and gets as I told you a 2 times increase. This places him above God Goku, but it was made clear in this movie that superior skills can earn you some great ground in fighting. Goku struggles with God's full power and Broly counters easily. Broly powers up again and gets 40000× Base. Goku loses his footing and gets wrecked. He goes into Blue.

With the multiplier for SSJG that I have and Blue being 5×God, this places Blue at 62500×Base. Broly can't powerup more. Goku is above him. This is the power gap that made Vegeta feel uneasy with Goku not killing Broly. He was around 70% Blue. Enough for a challenging fight, but enough to show a clear victor.

C-type is special. Not only is it a manifestation of Broly's true SSJ power, thus functions like the False SSJ, regular SSJ in comparison to SSJ2 etc, but it is just the standard multiplier. ×50 Base. only 2 times stronger you would say. But even so, he shouldn't be able to fight with Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue like that for so long. Neither hold back the supposedly superior to Blue, True Golden Freeza. He also gets a powerup from the transformation sequence. The standard 2 times one. No need to highball.

THIS places him at a ×4 of his fully powered (with all powerups accounted) Wrathful II state from the fight with Goku. He is now stronger than two SSJBs together. Not by much, but he is. Besides, as you said Goku and Vegeta managed to deal some damage, but Broly was going berserk and thus didn't indicate any reaction to that damage.

For FP SSJ Broly, he reaches his peak. No more powerups. Just another 2 times multiplier. The end. From that point he can't go further. He simply tries to recover his lost power through the fight with Gogeta. Broly only gets weaker by the second. At this point, I would say that he should be on the level of a Blue Kaio Ken ×10 Goku from the end of the movie. It doesn't seem much, but imo, Broly can defeat anyone in the Top below 2nd Ultra Instinct Omen Goku with ease.
Oh I see, now, I agree, I'm confortable with those god multipliers too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:37 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:43 pm
It should be pointed out that Broli was drawing power from his Great Ape humanoid form as soon as Vegeta started overpowering him with Super Saiyan. Actually, his base was a little bit stronger than Vegeta’s. His Great Ape humanoid form is what we view as modern SS4. Going SS on top of that is just overboard.
SS4 is usually seen as Ozaru+SS+Control

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:42 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:37 pm
SS4 is usually seen as Ozaru+SS+Control
These are the original characteristics of SS4, from Dragon Ball GT. I’m talking about Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:29 pm

I suspect SS Broly is not that strong in the manga. In addition to the brief image we saw of CSSB Goku and Vegeta fighting him, we also see that in the manga version of the battle, Goku and Vegeta didn't sustain any visible damage. Their clothes aren't even torn:
Image
Keep in mind, Beerus and Jiren have both been shown to be able to leave a CSSB in a crumpled heap after one or two hits even in the manga, so it's not like Toyotaro is averse to the idea itself.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:56 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:29 pm
I suspect SS Broly is not that strong in the manga. In addition to the brief image we saw of CSSB Goku and Vegeta fighting him, we also see that in the manga version of the battle, Goku and Vegeta didn't sustain any visible damage. Their clothes aren't even torn:
Image
Keep in mind, Beerus and Jiren have both been shown to be able to leave a CSSB in a crumpled heap after one or two hits even in the manga, so it's not like Toyotaro is averse to the idea itself.
That is a good argument indeed.

Come to think of it though, Broly might be on the same level as in the Movie for the following reasons.

Perfected SSJB is meant to use total concentration for unleashing 100% of Blue's power. In the Manga, SSJB loses power significantly faster than in the anime. That said, there are instances where Blue is below even a fully powered Super Saiyan God, something that never happened in the anime.

That said, Perfected Blue can have a multiplier of 10×Blue or 2×Blue, depending on how much the user's power has dropped in the regular state of Blue, prior using the Perfected variant. However, Perfected Blue never surpasses regular Blue's 100% power.

In the anime, the power of the user can drop significantly but nowhere near as in the Manga. I would say that an 70+-80% power is the least the Saiyan can unleash.

In the movie Broly as a C-type was above 2 SSJBs in strength. By my calculations not by much, but still superior. These Blues were nearly at 100% power. Why? Vegeta just transformed without being exhausted and his comments on Goku's Blue power being enough to take out Broly (who in Wrathful II was 70% Blue imo) hints the same.

So in the anime, what is known as Full Potential Blue in the Manga (100% Blue without achieving Perfection) is what is being used. That's equal to Perfected Blue.

Say that in the Manga Goku and Vegeta used Perfected Blue when at 50% of power. Prior using said form, Broly was surely overpowering them. For Manga standards they were using Super Saiyan Blue. Just like in the anime. And Broly in the Manga as a C-type stood equally against 2 Perfected Blues.

With this logic, Broly as a C-type is just as strong in the Manga as in the Anime. Around 4 SSJBs for both continuities. Now, there might be a difference in power for the different time-line characters but imo, Broly posed the exact same threat to both the anime and the Manga. Which is also why the events of the movie are pretty much Canon in both universes. Nothing contradicts the other.

Of course according to Toyotaro, Goku and Vegeta could go Perfected. A surprise for Broly but even so, they just made things even. And we actually got this from the movie too. Early in the fight between Broly and the duo of course. Even so, they couldn't finish C-type Broly, despite being Perfected Blues. Which resulted in Fusion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:25 am

I don’t think the lack of damage is an indication, because Goku was just resuming the story to the Galactic Patrol guys. There was no need to be that much detailed. In a actual fight, I believe Toyotaro would want to give as much impact as he could.

In another way, Toyotaro’s Broli might not have that green-haired form, which could mean it’s exactly as powerful as Broli’s golden-haired form from the movie who keeps his armor.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:25 am
I don’t think the lack of damage is an indication, because Goku was just resuming the story to the Galactic Patrol guys. There was no need to be that much detailed. In a actual fight, I believe Toyotaro would want to give as much impact as he could.

In another way, Toyotaro’s Broli might not have that green-haired form, which could mean it’s exactly as powerful as Broli’s golden-haired form from the movie who keeps his armor.
You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:09 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:15 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:25 am
I don’t think the lack of damage is an indication, because Goku was just resuming the story to the Galactic Patrol guys. There was no need to be that much detailed. In a actual fight, I believe Toyotaro would want to give as much impact as he could.

In another way, Toyotaro’s Broli might not have that green-haired form, which could mean it’s exactly as powerful as Broli’s golden-haired form from the movie who keeps his armor.
You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.
It was revealed not too long ago that the old Broly form that forced Gogeta to go Blue wasn't in Toriyama's script. According to Tori's original version, Broly should've reached the limit just as SS when Paragus dies, but the director threw in the green-haired version from the 90s.

The movie poster Broly, the XV2 Broly and probably the Broly will get in FighterZ is a creation of the director, not Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:57 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:09 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:15 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:25 am
I don’t think the lack of damage is an indication, because Goku was just resuming the story to the Galactic Patrol guys. There was no need to be that much detailed. In a actual fight, I believe Toyotaro would want to give as much impact as he could.

In another way, Toyotaro’s Broli might not have that green-haired form, which could mean it’s exactly as powerful as Broli’s golden-haired form from the movie who keeps his armor.
You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.
It was revealed not too long ago that the old Broly form that forced Gogeta to go Blue wasn't in Toriyama's script. According to Tori's original version, Broly should've reached the limit just as SS when Paragus dies, but the director threw in the green-haired version from the 90s.

The movie poster Broly, the XV2 Broly and probably the Broly will get in FighterZ is a creation of the director, not Toriyama.
Interesting. Although, I think that one more stage would be vital to showcase Broly's power. C-type doesn't sound that much of a peak power to force you into fusion, especially after being in the Wrathful II stage just before.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:22 pm

Cause Goku and Vegeta's clothes aren't damaged in a promo shot [not an actual story depiction] Broly isn't that strong in the manga?

Come on guys.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:22 pm
Cause Goku and Vegeta's clothes aren't damaged in a promo shot [not an actual story depiction] Broly isn't that strong in the manga?

Come on guys.
Imo he is the same. He posed the same threat and was as challenging.
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