Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I don’t think the lack of damage is an indication, because Goku was just resuming the story to the Galactic Patrol guys. There was no need to be that much detailed. In a actual fight, I believe Toyotaro would want to give as much impact as he could.

In another way, Toyotaro’s Broli might not have that green-haired form, which could mean it’s exactly as powerful as Broli’s golden-haired form from the movie who keeps his armor.

You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.

It was revealed not too long ago that the old Broly form that forced Gogeta to go Blue wasn't in Toriyama's script. According to Tori's original version, Broly should've reached the limit just as SS when Paragus dies, but the director threw in the green-haired version from the 90s.

The movie poster Broly, the XV2 Broly and probably the Broly will get in FighterZ is a creation of the director, not Toriyama.

That would explain why the introduction of his Full Power SSJ form was so quick and without any comment from anyone watching the fight. But where was this said?

[Miracles]

Cause Goku and Vegeta's clothes aren't damaged in a promo shot [not an actual story depiction] Broly isn't that strong in the manga?

Come on guys.

Imo he is the same. He posed the same threat and was as challenging.

The point is, the images were not an actual account of the battle.
They show Broly happened and the patrol arc continues from the Broly movie.

[Koitsukai]

You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.

It was revealed not too long ago that the old Broly form that forced Gogeta to go Blue wasn't in Toriyama's script. According to Tori's original version, Broly should've reached the limit just as SS when Paragus dies, but the director threw in the green-haired version from the 90s.

The movie poster Broly, the XV2 Broly and probably the Broly will get in FighterZ is a creation of the director, not Toriyama.

That would explain why the introduction of his Full Power SSJ form was so quick and without any comment from anyone watching the fight. But where was this said?

The interview is from february-march
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -shintani/

You think that Full Power Super Saiyan Broly doesn't exist in the Manga?! Interesting. Never thought of such a possibility. This would make the Movie Canon only in the anime then.

It was revealed not too long ago that the old Broly form that forced Gogeta to go Blue wasn't in Toriyama's script. According to Tori's original version, Broly should've reached the limit just as SS when Paragus dies, but the director threw in the green-haired version from the 90s.

The movie poster Broly, the XV2 Broly and probably the Broly will get in FighterZ is a creation of the director, not Toriyama.

Interesting. Although, I think that one more stage would be vital to showcase Broly's power. C-type doesn't sound that much of a peak power to force you into fusion, especially after being in the Wrathful II stage just before.

I guess Tori envisioned SS Broly's strenght to be what in the movie was his FP, but without green hair or looking like the old Broly.

[Kenneth La Torre]

cant believe people are making an argument that because goku and vegeta didnt seem visibly damaged, that broly wasnt so strong in the manga... in the same page that goku outright said broly was TOO MUCH for both of them in blue... and to say his FPSSJ form doesnt exist in the manga isnt accurate. after all, FPSSJ came about because broly was loosing to a much more powerful warrior than two super saiyan blues. you guys look into things too much. its a recap image, not the entire story. and it is non-sense to think he would reach god of destruction levels of power with his regular ssj form.

[Grand Marshal 1]

cant believe people are making an argument that because goku and vegeta didnt seem visibly damaged, that broly wasnt so strong in the manga... in the same page that goku outright said broly was TOO MUCH for both of them in blue... and to say his FPSSJ form doesnt exist in the manga isnt accurate. after all, FPSSJ came about because broly was loosing to a much more powerful warrior than two super saiyan blues. you guys look into things too much. its a recap image, not the entire story. and it is non-sense to think he would reach god of destruction levels of power with his regular ssj form.

I place him at the level of post-movie SSJB KK×10 Goku level, which should be above 2nd Omen Goku, GoD Mode Toppo and perhaps, just perhaps a low powered Blue Evolution Vegeta (1st appearance) in comparison to the ToP characters of course. Definitely fusion worthy.

Of course he might be more than a match for these dudes, giving a very good run for the money of Vegito Blue and Giant Corrupted Merged Zamasu, who fall imo between GoD Toppo and 3rd Omen Goku. This is a highball for Broly, even as a FP SSJ.

[Kenneth La Torre]

cant believe people are making an argument that because goku and vegeta didnt seem visibly damaged, that broly wasnt so strong in the manga... in the same page that goku outright said broly was TOO MUCH for both of them in blue... and to say his FPSSJ form doesnt exist in the manga isnt accurate. after all, FPSSJ came about because broly was loosing to a much more powerful warrior than two super saiyan blues. you guys look into things too much. its a recap image, not the entire story. and it is non-sense to think he would reach god of destruction levels of power with his regular ssj form.

I place him at the level of post-movie SSJB KK×10 Goku level, which should be above 2nd Omen Goku, GoD Mode Toppo and perhaps, just perhaps a low powered Blue Evolution Vegeta (1st appearance) in comparison to the ToP characters of course. Definitely fusion worthy.

definitely NOT fusion worthy. worthy enought to get beat by a ssj fusion? definitely, but blue fusion is required. he is stronger than any antagonist that isnt possibly jiren, he is beerus tier in fact, regardless of if he is weaker or stronger than him. nothing in those 2 pages, at all, indicate he was that weak.

[RandomGuy96]

The interview is from february-march
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -shintani/

"For Cheelye and Lemo, I basically drew them to be as faithful to Toriyama’s designs as possible. Broli was a different story, though. The only designs I received were up to him wearing his armor, and it gave off a very different impression than the Broli of the past. Personally, I had a very strong image of Broli based on the previous movies, so I created my own design for him at Full Power from scratch. I just had the urge to see him lose his shirt and run wild at the end. Toriyama had stated that he didn’t want him to be overly macho, so I aimed to make him look as huge as possible, yet still within the confines of not going overboard with it."

So his LSS/FPSS form didn't exist in Toriyama's version and was created from scratch by the animation staff. By that logic, in Toriyama's script, was SS1 Broly the one who was stronger than Beerus? Considering his Human-Oozaru form should be 1/5 the strength of his SS form, and his Human-Oozaru form was being overwhelmed 1v1 vs Goku, then Beerus is definitely less than five times stronger than the Blues if we take SS1 Broly as the max of 'canon' Broly.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The interview is from february-march
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -shintani/

"For Cheelye and Lemo, I basically drew them to be as faithful to Toriyama’s designs as possible. Broli was a different story, though. The only designs I received were up to him wearing his armor, and it gave off a very different impression than the Broli of the past. Personally, I had a very strong image of Broli based on the previous movies, so I created my own design for him at Full Power from scratch. I just had the urge to see him lose his shirt and run wild at the end. Toriyama had stated that he didn’t want him to be overly macho, so I aimed to make him look as huge as possible, yet still within the confines of not going overboard with it."

So his LSS/FPSS form didn't exist in Toriyama's version and was created from scratch by the animation staff. By that logic, in Toriyama's script, was SS1 Broly the one who was stronger than Beerus? Considering his Human-Oozaru form should be 1/5 the strength of his SS form, and his Human-Oozaru form was being overwhelmed 1v1 vs Goku, then Beerus is definitely less than five times stronger than the Blues if we take SS1 Broly as the max of 'canon' Broly.

complete baseless assumption. his ssj form is stacked up on his ikari forms, thus the reason he remains oozaru like. his ssj form is about 40-50x his ikari. thus why gogeta in ssj isnt so far above, despite gogeta being blue level in base.

[Block88]

Cause Goku and Vegeta's clothes aren't damaged in a promo shot [not an actual story depiction] Broly isn't that strong in the manga?

Come on guys.

Exactly they ssj broly was still too much for them that they had to fuse no ifs or and about it

[Grand Marshal 1]

cant believe people are making an argument that because goku and vegeta didnt seem visibly damaged, that broly wasnt so strong in the manga... in the same page that goku outright said broly was TOO MUCH for both of them in blue... and to say his FPSSJ form doesnt exist in the manga isnt accurate. after all, FPSSJ came about because broly was loosing to a much more powerful warrior than two super saiyan blues. you guys look into things too much. its a recap image, not the entire story. and it is non-sense to think he would reach god of destruction levels of power with his regular ssj form.

I place him at the level of post-movie SSJB KK×10 Goku level, which should be above 2nd Omen Goku, GoD Mode Toppo and perhaps, just perhaps a low powered Blue Evolution Vegeta (1st appearance) in comparison to the ToP characters of course. Definitely fusion worthy.

definitely NOT fusion worthy. worthy enought to get beat by a ssj fusion? definitely, but blue fusion is required. he is stronger than any antagonist that isnt possibly jiren, he is beerus tier in fact, regardless of if he is weaker or stronger than him. nothing in those 2 pages, at all, indicate he was that weak.

I think that having him above GoD Toppo, perhaps above Merged Zamasu and slightly below 3rd Omen Goku, isn't a lowball. Never said he was weak. 3rd Omen Goku was roughly on PAR with Full Power/100% Jiren and in the realm equal or even above God's of Destruction. Vegito and Zamasu entered that spectrum even by a little in the FT Arc. Seeing how Goku and Vegeta only resorted to Blue to fight Broly, of course fusion would be the answer.

Never did I personally say that Broly is weak. If you think that 3rd Omen Goku level is weak, then I don't know. Thus Broly has the potential to defeat Beerus. No statement was ever made in comparison to Jiren's strength, but if anything, Broly could push him go Full Power. The ToP Jiren of course.

And Hogeta went Blue only to destroy Broly. He was never on that level. I think that even if Super Gogeta was slightly weaker or totally equal to Broly, the latter as a FP SSJ could have fought equally with SSJ2 Gogeta and be defeated by a Super Saiyan 3.

Gogeta went for the kill though.

his ssj form is about 40-50x his ikari. thus why gogeta in ssj isnt so far above, despite gogeta being blue level in base.

Simply impossible. You have a Wrathful II Broly being low SSJB level. Adn you are telling me that it was natural for Goku and Vegeta to trade blows with C-type Broly, or for Freeza to survive 1 hour of pummeling even in True Golden, by a Broly who would be at least 40× Blue? No way. It was just the next step to him becoming a Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

Simply impossible. You have a Wrathful II Broly being low SSJB level. Adn you are telling me that it was natural for Goku and Vegeta to trade blows with C-type Broly, or for Freeza to survive 1 hour of pummeling even in True Golden, by a Broly who would be at least 40× Blue? No way. It was just the next step to him becoming a Super Saiyan.

Why should it matter anyway? Even if Broli was just twice as strong as Freeza, that difference should be enough to kill him. The whole Broli vs. Freeza stuff was supposed to be a gag.

I think it’s more consistent that Super Saiyan powers-up Broli as much as it powers-up Gogeta.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Simply impossible. You have a Wrathful II Broly being low SSJB level. Adn you are telling me that it was natural for Goku and Vegeta to trade blows with C-type Broly, or for Freeza to survive 1 hour of pummeling even in True Golden, by a Broly who would be at least 40× Blue? No way. It was just the next step to him becoming a Super Saiyan.

Why should it matter anyway? Even if Broli was just twice as strong as Freeza, that difference should be enough to kill him. The whole Broli vs. Freeza stuff was supposed to be a gag.

I think it’s more consistent that Super Saiyan powers-up Broli as much as it powers-up Gogeta.

Ok, perhaps. But if so, then that would mean 50×Base. Gogeta went SSJ. Broly was a C-type. So that means that Broly's Base should be comparable to Gogeta.

Not that Wrathful II Broly is equal to Base Gogeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Ok, perhaps. But if so, then that would mean 50×Base. Gogeta went SSJ. Broly was a C-type. So that means that Broly's Base should be comparable to Gogeta.

Not that Wrathful II Broly is equal to Base Gogeta.

Broli was what? What is C-Type and Wrathful II?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ok, perhaps. But if so, then that would mean 50×Base. Gogeta went SSJ. Broly was a C-type. So that means that Broly's Base should be comparable to Gogeta.

Not that Wrathful II Broly is equal to Base Gogeta.

Broli was what? What is C-Type and Wrathful II?

Apparently, C-Type is meant to refer to a Super Saiyan that's weird like that, coming from the original portrayal of Broly. It really doesn't appl to the new Brol anyways

As for Wrathful II, I'm guessing they mean Ikari Broly when his Oozaru power increased his size and gave him the wild hair.

Anyways, I'm of the opinion that Ikari Broly serves as the base form of Ikari SS Broly due to him not using Super Saiyan yet and thus gaining the usual 50 times boost from the form that all other Saiyans get, albeit with the downside of the uncontrollability of his Oozaru power. Makes sense since Ikari SS Broly is portrayed as in a similar boat to SS Gogeta who's just a normal Super Saiyan with Fusion power boosting it to ludicrous levels.

[ankokudaishogun]

Ok, perhaps. But if so, then that would mean 50×Base. Gogeta went SSJ. Broly was a C-type. So that means that Broly's Base should be comparable to Gogeta.

Not that Wrathful II Broly is equal to Base Gogeta.

Broli was what? What is C-Type and Wrathful II?

Type-C refers to Broly's base Super Saiyan design in Movie-10, as it was referred as such(with type-A being the restricted Super Saiyan in Movie-8 and Type-B being the Legendary Super Saiyan design in both movies) in some artbook

Wrathful II... no idea. most likely headcanon from the wikia.

[Hugo Boss]

About “C-Type”, why not just call him Super Saiyan?! That appears to be a super-specific name that only refers to Broli in his second coming movie.

Also, Wrathful is understandable but rather a confusing option if it refers to a specific form, since Broli fights like that in all his forms. Let alone calling it I or II.

But back to the point. Super Saiyan seems to factor on top of his Great Ape powers, not on Broli’s base level, which is only as strong as Goku and Vegeta’s.

[ankokudaishogun]

About “C-Type”, why not just call him Super Saiyan?! That appears to be a super-specific name that only refers to Broli in his second coming movie.

it is. It's specifically a design term.
I blame the wikia for popularizing the term as referring to something different than a normal Super Saiyan

[Grand Marshal 1]

Guys, relax. You are being very nitpicky. Call the forms whatever you like. Of course the Wiki has invalid info. Did I present something from there? No.

Still, what makes you think that Broly went SSJ on top of Wrathful/Ikari? Makes no sense. He simply went a step further. No need to relate him that much with SSJ4 or Golden Great Ape. Wrathful itself is meant to represent that.

Also, it was made evident that Broly's Base was significantly above SSJ. Even Goku commented as much. Most certainly, he is a low SSJ3, if not equal. This also comes in defense to why Goku and Vegeta didn't use midway transformations and once their Super Saiyan was outmatched, they went God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Guys, relax. You are being very nitpicky. Call the forms whatever you like. Of course the Wiki has invalid info. Did I present something from there? No.

Still, what makes you think that Broly went SSJ on top of Wrathful/Ikari? Makes no sense. He simply went a step further. No need to relate him that much with SSJ4 or Golden Great Ape. Wrathful itself is meant to represent that.

Also, it was made evident that Broly's Base was significantly above SSJ. Even Goku commented as much. Most certainly, he is a low SSJ3, if not equal. This also comes in defense to why Goku and Vegeta didn't use midway transformations and once their Super Saiyan was outmatched, they went God.

Because he literally went Super Saiyan while in his Ikari state? It's clear that he doesn't utilize the power of Super Saiyan in that form. Freeza killed his dad and made him rage out into a Super Saiyan stacked on top of his SSB-level Ikari form; he retains his size increase and wild hair, and he still has the green aura of his prior Ikari state.

We see later that Gogeta replicates feats that support it being a straight SS boost, since he dodges and deflects blasts from Ikari SS Broly just like SSB Goku did in his base form and is shown to be an equal in raw power when he himself turns Super Saiyan.

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that Ikari SS is just stacking SS on top of Ikari as if the latter is a base form. Technically speaking, Broly's still in his base form albeit heavily increased in strength, and it isn't something that supersedes SS like with Ultimate Gohan.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Guys, relax. You are being very nitpicky. Call the forms whatever you like. Of course the Wiki has invalid info. Did I present something from there? No.

Still, what makes you think that Broly went SSJ on top of Wrathful/Ikari? Makes no sense. He simply went a step further. No need to relate him that much with SSJ4 or Golden Great Ape. Wrathful itself is meant to represent that.

Also, it was made evident that Broly's Base was significantly above SSJ. Even Goku commented as much. Most certainly, he is a low SSJ3, if not equal. This also comes in defense to why Goku and Vegeta didn't use midway transformations and once their Super Saiyan was outmatched, they went God.

Because he literally went Super Saiyan while in his Ikari state? It's clear that he doesn't utilize the power of Super Saiyan in that form. Freeza killed his dad and made him rage out into a Super Saiyan stacked on top of his SSB-level Ikari form; he retains his size increase and wild hair, and he still has the green aura of his prior Ikari state.

We see later that Gogeta replicates feats that support it being a straight SS boost, since he dodges and deflects blasts from Ikari SS Broly just like SSB Goku did in his base form and is shown to be an equal in raw power when he himself turns Super Saiyan.

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that Ikari SS is just stacking SS on top of Ikari as if the latter is a base form. Technically speaking, Broly's still in his base form albeit heavily increased in strength, and it isn't something that supersedes SS like with Ultimate Gohan.

Gogeta makes sense. Yes. I am not taking Freeza's gag battle as valid info as requested by some. But still. How can you explain the battle between Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta with Super Broly. I would change my mind and believe all of you if it was that simple. But it is not. How can 2 Blues challenge, strike, occasionally push back and counterattack someone who is 50 times superior? (again not saying that Freeza would have not survived as an argument). That's all I want you to answer to me, but you don't. I have elaborated with all my points. But I only see the same case with Gogeta from everyone.