"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Beerus clearly said battle power that is "SUPERFICIAL" is not godly. All Goku did was RAISE his battle power just like he does in SSJ. That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.

None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.

Well we know for a fact that Blue consumes tons of energy. We don't know if red consumes more energy than SSJ3.

I don't think this scene follows a specific logic. Vegeta was in SSG, went straight back to base, and then activated SSJ. Order was not necessarily between the highest-spending and least-spending transformations.

So at least for me, SSG definitely uses less energy than SSJ3 (considering all of Goku's fights using these two forms) and while SSB uses more energy than God, it's not a big difference. SSJ3 Goku was unable to defeat someone weaker than him due to the transformation drawback, while unmastered SSB Vegeta fought for long periods of time against Black and did not complain about it.

[Miracles]

None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.

Well we know for a fact that Blue consumes tons of energy. We don't know if red consumes more energy than SSJ3.

There is evidence for both sides. For example in the Broly movie, Goku opted to fight broly in SSJ God instead of SSJ3. This however can be chalked up to him requiring that much power to deal with him, as he also skipped over SSJ2. In the Anime's tournament of power we see Goku in his fight with Caulifla and Kale we see Goku Burst into SSJ3 for a short moment before going back to super saiyan 2, but goes into God form later when he had gotten more energy. This is the anime continuity though, so we can't know for sure.

Yeah, you're right. It's just not definitive which consumes more.

None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.

Well we know for a fact that Blue consumes tons of energy. We don't know if red consumes more energy than SSJ3.

I don't think this scene follows a specific logic. Vegeta was in SSG, went straight back to base, and then activated SSJ. Order was not necessarily between the highest-spending and least-spending transformations.

So at least for me, SSG definitely uses less energy than SSJ3 (considering all of Goku's fights using these two forms) and while SSB uses more energy than God, it's a big difference. SSJ3 Goku was unable to defeat someone weaker than him due to the transformation drawback, while unmastered SSB Vegeta fought for long periods of time against Black and did not complain about it.

Yeah, no doubt. I wasn't discussing which form consumed more energy. I was just proving that the god forms and SSJ forms are not the same. So even if Goku reverted back from blue to red to SSJ3 that doesn't break any story point in DB.

[Dragon Wukong]

I dunno. Seems like SS3 consumes less energy than SSG. Otherwise how would Goku drop from SSG (from not having enough energy to be/stay in the form) and still be able to use SS3?

At least in the manga continuity, anyways.

[superfan2024]

I'm still confused by how Goku went down from God to Super Saiyan 3... why not regular Super Saiyan?

[Grimlock]

That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.

"Seeping Ki out" only happens during Golden Freeza saga, way after Goku achieved Super Saiyan God for the first time. It has nothing to do with Super Saiyan God to begin with. The way Toei presented the idea, I'd say it is more likely a "requirement for a better control" (or whatever the actual reason is) for/before achieving Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for the first time. They can't sense the Ki of Gods of Destruction because reasons, but it has nothing to do with "seeping out Ki", this was introduced much later, in a completely different context to explain something else.

You shouldn't really mix things up like that. And I don't know what is your point anymore, if you are still trying to prove that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not Super Saiyan with god powers, then you are far away from that with this subject.

[Miracles]

That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.

"Seeping Ki out" only happens during Golden Freeza saga, way after Goku achieved Super Saiyan God for the first time. It has nothing to do with Super Saiyan God to begin with. The way Toei presented the idea, I'd say it is more likely a "requirement for a better control" (or whatever the actual reason is) for/before achieving Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for the first time. They can't sense the Ki of Gods of Destruction because reasons, but it has nothing to do with "seeping out Ki", this was introduced much later, in a completely different context to explain something else.

You shouldn't really mix things up like that. And I don't know what's your point anymore, if you are still trying to prove that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not Super Saiyan with god powers, then you're far away from that with this subject.

When Goku was in Super Saiyan, Beerus outright stated that battle power [ki] appearing superficially isn't godly. When Goku became god, the rest of the Z Senshi couldn't sense him cause the Ki was contained within. This showed that god and Super Saiyan are different due to the fact that ki does not leak out in one but leaks out in the other. There is no god powers in super Saiyan like you claimed.

[Grimlock]

When Goku was in Super Saiyan, Beerus outright stated that battle power [ki] appearing superficially isn't godly.

Yes. Because all that happened in that moment was Goku receiving energy from the others. That is why his Ki wasn't godly.

When Goku became god, the rest of the Z Senshi couldn't sense him cause the Ki was contained within.

Yes. Like I said, they couldn't sense Goku's Ki anymore because reasons. He became a god and for some reason, they can't sense him anymore. It was never explained why characters can't sense god Ki.

This showed that god and Super Saiyan are different due to the fact that ki does not leak out in one but leaks out in the other. There is no god powers in super Saiyan like you claimed.

You don't get to tell me that Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God are different forms when I just said in this very discussion that they belong to different branch of transformations.

Again and for the last time, "seeping out Ki" not only was introduced way after Goku achieves Super Saiyan God for the first time, as it is a fact that Goku was leaking out Ki at that moment. Because he hadn't learned not to leak it out at that point. Goku would only learn it during Golden Freeza saga specifically in Toei's continuity.


And finally, this subject has absolutely nothing to do with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being Super Saiyan with god powers (our original subject of discussion). Which is something I'm still waiting for you to prove otherwise (as you claim) and debunk official statements.

[Miracles]

When Goku was in Super Saiyan, Beerus outright stated that battle power [ki] appearing superficially isn't godly.

Yes. Because all that happened in that moment was Goku receiving energy from the others. That is why his Ki wasn't godly.

Please stop ignoring "SUPERFICIALLY."

When Goku became god, the rest of the Z Senshi couldn't sense him cause the Ki was contained within.

Yes. Like I said, they couldn't sense Goku's Ki anymore because reasons. He became a god and for some reason, they can't sense him anymore.

That's cause his battle power was no longer "SUPERFICIALLY" appearing where it could be sensed.

You don't get to tell me that Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God are different forms when I just said in this very discussion that they belong to different branch of transformations.

Again and for the last time, "seeping out Ki" not only was introduced way after Goku achieves Super Saiyan God for the first time, as it is a fact that Goku was leaking out Ki at that moment. Because he hadn't learned not to leak it out at that point. Goku would only learn it during Golden Freeza saga specifically in Toei's continuity.

And finally, this subject has absolutely nothing to do with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being Super Saiyan with god powers (our original subject of discussion). Which is something I'm still waiting for you to prove otherwise (as you claim) and debunk official statements.

Wrong, God Ki was differentiated from Super Saiyan in BoG. You keep ignoring the fact that Beerus said Goku's Ki appearing outwardly is ungodly. However, it became godly when his Ki was contained within, therefore could not be sensed and being godly. Showing that it is impossible to have god Ki in Super Saiyan, which you said is possible here...

There's Super Saiyan then god forms. God forms then super Saiyan reversed.

There isn't. Super Saiyan is part of a branch of transformations, Super Saiyan God is part of another.

There is no god powers in Super Saiyan

There is, that's exactly what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is/means.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I dunno. Seems like SS3 consumes less energy than SSG. Otherwise how would Goku drop from SSG (from not having enough energy to be/stay in the form) and still be able to use SS3?

At least in the manga continuity, anyways.

Well, Vegeta was in SSG and returned to base but was still able to use SSJ. Like I said, this scene doesn't seem to follow this energy-based logic of transformations. Currently Goku may already be able to use SSJ3 without wasting as much energy as before, but I still believe SSG and SSB spend less

[JulieYBM]

I re-read the comic version of the Zamasu fight last night and was really struck by how cool Vegeta's strategy with Super Saiyan God is. I definitely hope that it comes back into use. I might not be a fan of multiple transformations but Toyo-tarou repeating his idea from his Dragon Ball AF comic was a really good idea.

[TKA]

I dunno. Seems like SS3 consumes less energy than SSG. Otherwise how would Goku drop from SSG (from not having enough energy to be/stay in the form) and still be able to use SS3?

Because SSG and SSB use god ki. If they got their god ki drained then they just can't sustain their god forms. It doesn't suggest that SS3 takes less ki to maintain.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I re-read the comic version of the Zamasu fight last night and was really struck by how cool Vegeta's strategy with Super Saiyan God is. I definitely hope that it comes back into use. I might not be a fan of multiple transformations but Toyo-tarou repeating his idea from his Dragon Ball AF comic was a really good idea.

The God-Blue technique? Yes, it is a favorite of mines as well. Using Super Saiyan God for it's low energy consumption and superiority over the standard SSJ Forms and then switching to Super Saiyan Blue for an instant to defend/attack.

In the Anime it was used by Goku in the ToP though. Not to the same extent but still. However, it's true might as a technique (could even be considered a "form" as Kaio Ken itself is a technique considered "form") in shown in the manga.

There, Super Saiyan Blue's Full Potential is way stronger than the standard Blue. And by explosively unleashing it's power for a few seconds, no stamina/energy was wasted on top of using Full Potential Blue, equivalent in strength to Perfected Super Saiyan Blue.

I can go on forever lol.

But I do not recall something similar being used in AF... Could you please show me?

[Grimlock]

However, it became godly when his Ki was contained within, therefore could not be sensed and being godly. Showing that it is impossible to have god Ki in Super Saiyan, which you said is possible here...

Never was it said Goku's Ki was "contained within" in Movie 14. Also, not being able to sense Ki has nothing to do with god ki not being able to be used along with Super Saiyan.

Anyway, it seems you're gonna go with your "headcanon" no matter what, then there's no reason to continue this. Word of advice: do not put your own information above all else and stop ignoring official statements. Go with them instead.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I would love to insert my opinion into this God Ki discussion, but I probably shouldn't drag on this too.

So to change subject, guys do you remember when they said that Moro wasn't the Arc's final villain or something? Could they refer to the prisoners? Or someone actually strong?

Fan theory, but would it be a good idea for Bojack and his gang to escape the Galactic Prison? Say that this was their opportunity to be "canonized". I mean, it would be more interesting if powerful prisoners were also released with Moro's wish, but without them being allies.

Still I will always bitch about Sealas and his bot not being involved in this arc,when Toyo himself drew his design as a galactic patrol member. This arc is 50-50 Toyo/Tori (at least the concept has to be) so it should be possible. But I think that Tori's presence isn't felt as the arc keeps on going. The trip to Yadrat has to be a good one. Hopefully.

[Miracles]

However, it became godly when his Ki was contained within, therefore could not be sensed and being godly. Showing that it is impossible to have god Ki in Super Saiyan, which you said is possible here...

Never was it said Goku's Ki was "contained within" in Movie 14. Also, not being able to sense Ki has nothing to do with god ki not being able to be used along with Super Saiyan.

Anyway, it seems you're gonna go with your "headcanon" no matter what, then there's no reason to continue this. Word of advice: do not put your own information above all else and stop ignoring official statements. Go with them instead.

I'll stay with canon statements in context over official sayings all day. In BoG, Beerus stated godly Ki isn't "battle power appearing superficially." When Goku became god, the Z senshi couldn't sense his Ki. It no longer appeared outwardly [superficially] but inwardly. That's why they could sense Goku's ki when he lost the god form and reverted back to Super Saiyan. Showing that there is no god ki in Super Saiyan form. Keep ignoring factual context.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I would love to insert my opinion into this God Ki discussion, but I probably shouldn't drag on this too.

So to change subject, guys do you remember when they said that Moro wasn't the Arc's final villain or something? Could they refer to the prisoners? Or someone actually strong?

Fan theory, but would it be a good idea for Bojack and his gang to escape the Galactic Prison? Say that this was their opportunity to be "canonized". I mean, it would be more interesting if powerful prisoners were also released with Moro's wish, but without them being allies.

Still I will always bitch about Sealas and his bot not being involved in this arc,when Toyo himself drew his design as a galactic patrol member. This arc is 50-50 Toyo/Tori (at least the concept has to be) so it should be possible. But I think that Tori's presence isn't felt as the arc keeps on going. The trip to Yadrat has to be a good one. Hopefully.

In fact, this "another villain besides Moro" thing was just an impression of Ryokuta (leaker who usually gives information about the chapters), that is, they are just personal opinions based on what was read. At this point, it doesn't seem that another villain other than Moro will emerge. But Moro itself may just be an introduction to something bigger

[Grand Marshal 1]

I would love to insert my opinion into this God Ki discussion, but I probably shouldn't drag on this too.

So to change subject, guys do you remember when they said that Moro wasn't the Arc's final villain or something? Could they refer to the prisoners? Or someone actually strong?

Fan theory, but would it be a good idea for Bojack and his gang to escape the Galactic Prison? Say that this was their opportunity to be "canonized". I mean, it would be more interesting if powerful prisoners were also released with Moro's wish, but without them being allies.

Still I will always bitch about Sealas and his bot not being involved in this arc,when Toyo himself drew his design as a galactic patrol member. This arc is 50-50 Toyo/Tori (at least the concept has to be) so it should be possible. But I think that Tori's presence isn't felt as the arc keeps on going. The trip to Yadrat has to be a good one. Hopefully.

In fact, this "another villain besides Moro" thing was just an impression of Ryokuta (leaker who usually gives information about the chapters), that is, they are just personal opinions based on what was read. At this point, it doesn't seem that another villain other than Moro will emerge. But Moro itself may just be an introduction to something bigger

I would love for something new. I mean, he could serve a purpose as an introduction to a new concept or a bunch of new ideas. But, I would love it if they tied the Demon Realm in the continuity somehow with Moro's death. Perfect time to introduce the Makaioshins as well, given how Tori had ideas about them, but never implemented them.

[Thani]

But unless they were harshly retconned, the makaioshin wouldn't matter all that much. They're originally supposed to be weaker than the Kaioshin, and them being stronger than a hakaishin would make little sense.

[Toxin45]

Anyone surprise about the Cell Jrs returning?

[ahill1]

I don't think it's the Shunkan Ido Vegeta wants tbh... doubt they'd keep that as a suspense, as being the highlight of the last chapter were it an already shown technique. Plus I can't see how it could be used to counter attack Moro's absorptions technique other than teleporting to behind him and offing him that way, which I don't think they'll abide for as that would be too boring.