Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:48 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:15 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:58 pm
Questrider wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:00 am
Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.
I never understood some of the fandom's logic behind the bold:

-Broly fought a stronger Goku and Vegeta than what Jiren faced.
-Goku and Vegeta RAN away from Broly and looked for another way to deal with him.
-They didn't run from Jiren but tried to still beat him head up with their OWN power.
-Jiren was weaker to a SINGLE character in UI Goku.
- Broly was at the level of a FULL POWER Blue Fuson in Gogeta.

It's quite evident that Broly is the stronger between the two.
Not sure if Gogeta was going all out... Also nothing indicates massive powerups from the end of the ToP to the Broly movie. Eps 125-131 happened in mere minutes and what happened in these eps is pretty much what we call post-ToP.

Only Freeza has been mentioned to have POSSIBLY trained by the time of the movie. Also, it really didn't matter if Goku and Vegeta could run away from Jiren. They couldn't really. Nowhere to go. So they didn't delay the inevitable and fought.

Also they had the option of fusion. And by now Vegito Blue should be just a percentage weaker than Gogeta Blue. But hey, they didn't use it. They didn't feel confident. So yeah.

Jiren was presented to be the multiverse's top dog. Why immediately replace him? 0 narrative advantage. Presenting this new enemy, who the characters roughly approached in power, a power beyond the GoDs, only to get us to the next level with someone supposedly "even" stronger.

Still not buying that Broly is stronger. Not yet at least. His first appearance isn't his final one.
The numerical strength gains is an unknown. The fact remains that Broly fought a stronger Goku and Vegeta than Jiren. Secondly, narration wise, Goku and Vegeta do not use fusion unless they have no chance at victory individually/teamwork. This alone proves Broly is stronger than Jiren. It took a full power fusion; proof of that: Blue Gogeta was used, The highest mode for the god power. Even with that it took A TON to put Broly away. While Jiren only lost to a single character in UI Goku.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:59 pm

Seeing as how Ultra Instinct is portrayed as generally on the same level as if not vastly superior to even SSB Fusion, I'm inclined to think that HP Jiren surpasses SSFP Broly by a fairly wide margin.

I will grant that SSFP Broly might be stronger than regular FP Jiren, but ONLY in raw power, and certainly not enough to really grant him an advantage.

Feat wise, SSFP Broly wasn't too impressive beyond lasting somewhat decently against SSB Gogeta. However, it's clear that, unlike as Super Saiyans, he's clearly outclassed this time around against the Fusion. Broly also only got compared to Beerus, whereas Jiren was compared to the level of God of Destruction as a whole. His full power was enough to even take on the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct Omen, no small feat given that SSB/KKx20 Goku was pushing the former with all his might and STILL barely stalemating Jiren's glare.

That's a power difference DEFINITELY in the order of Fusion through the simple math of it.

I think that SSFP Broly is ultimately equal in power to Jiren's normal full power, maybe slightly above it, but not enough to actually place him as the stronger fighter overall. He mostly just got beat on by a Gogeta fused off of Goku and Vegeta who didn't really get magnitudes of orders stronger through the Tournament of Power; small increases generally, big increases through limit breaks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:24 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:55 pm
Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)
You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. 1) SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect so this is only an inconsistent feat. ,If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make 2) SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.
1) God-level characters choosing to not threaten the universe doesn't mean they can't do at all. It's been common knowledge that DB character can maintain their attack potency while keeping their destruction power low ever since Piccolo Daimao blew up the city (or when Roshi blew up the moon). Though, if you still want to be the logic you're using, then most DB character's aren't more than mountain level because their attacks rarely destroy or threaten to destroy more than that.

2) In that case, Freeza/Boo blowing up planets shouldn't matter in any way for these comparisons because they're just to make them look cool.
I don’t know if you really understood the point I made, but since the story isn’t affected by those “feats”, we shouldn’t be saying X character in DBSuper is definitely stronger than Y character in DBGT, since the “feat” aspect isn’t presented consistently in the fights. So, it’s quite possible that a character that wasn’t shown threatening the universe in DBGT to be stronger than a character that did it on DBSuper. I’m not exactly claiming that SSBlue can’t replicate the same collateral damage as SSGod showed before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:13 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:59 pm
Seeing as how Ultra Instinct is portrayed as generally on the same level as if not vastly superior to even SSB Fusion, I'm inclined to think that HP Jiren surpasses SSFP Broly by a fairly wide margin.

I will grant that SSFP Broly might be stronger than regular FP Jiren, but ONLY in raw power, and certainly not enough to really grant him an advantage.

Feat wise, SSFP Broly wasn't too impressive beyond lasting somewhat decently against SSB Gogeta. However, it's clear that, unlike as Super Saiyans, he's clearly outclassed this time around against the Fusion. Broly also only got compared to Beerus, whereas Jiren was compared to the level of God of Destruction as a whole. His full power was enough to even take on the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct Omen, no small feat given that SSB/KKx20 Goku was pushing the former with all his might and STILL barely stalemating Jiren's glare.

That's a power difference DEFINITELY in the order of Fusion through the simple math of it.

I think that SSFP Broly is ultimately equal in power to Jiren's normal full power, maybe slightly above it, but not enough to actually place him as the stronger fighter overall. He mostly just got beat on by a Gogeta fused off of Goku and Vegeta who didn't really get magnitudes of orders stronger through the Tournament of Power; small increases generally, big increases through limit breaks.
Saying the sum of the parts is equal/greater than fusion is contradictory to the entire DB story. Especially when fusion was deemed "unfair" in the Broly movie. Fusion was only used when opponents combined their might and were way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. Jiren NEVER presented such a threat BUT Broly did however.

It's obvious Broly is the stronger of the two.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:17 pm

Eh, Fusion wasn't used against Jiren despite Merged Zamasu being the weaker one.

Besides that, the Tournament of Power didn't allow for good use of Fusion anyways. Not to mention that Fusion doesn't seem to factor in Ultra Instinct into its power boost seeing as how the form is consistently displayed as in the same range as SSB Fusion and often much greater.

Fundamental difference in perspectives, as usual. None of us are budging and can't see where the other is coming. Ergo, no point in arguing it to begin with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:24 pm

You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. 1) SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect so this is only an inconsistent feat. ,If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make 2) SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.
1) God-level characters choosing to not threaten the universe doesn't mean they can't do at all. It's been common knowledge that DB character can maintain their attack potency while keeping their destruction power low ever since Piccolo Daimao blew up the city (or when Roshi blew up the moon). Though, if you still want to be the logic you're using, then most DB character's aren't more than mountain level because their attacks rarely destroy or threaten to destroy more than that.

2) In that case, Freeza/Boo blowing up planets shouldn't matter in any way for these comparisons because they're just to make them look cool.
I don’t know if you really understood the point I made, but since the story isn’t affected by those “feats”, we shouldn’t be saying X character in DBSuper is definitely stronger than Y character in DBGT, since the “feat” aspect isn’t presented consistently in the fights. So, it’s quite possible that a character that wasn’t shown threatening the universe in DBGT to be stronger than a character that did it on DBSuper. I’m not exactly claiming that SSBlue can’t replicate the same collateral damage as SSGod showed before.
But it doesn't really matter if the story is "affected" by that, it's was stated numerous times whether by characters or the narrators himself that if they didn't stop somehow then the universe will be destroyed. And that alone puts SSG above Omega Shenlong because the latter actually wanted to destroy the universe, but if he could've done as easy as SSG, then he simply would've done so instead of going for the "Infecting planets with Negative Energy" route.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:13 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:59 pm
Seeing as how Ultra Instinct is portrayed as generally on the same level as if not vastly superior to even SSB Fusion, I'm inclined to think that HP Jiren surpasses SSFP Broly by a fairly wide margin.

I will grant that SSFP Broly might be stronger than regular FP Jiren, but ONLY in raw power, and certainly not enough to really grant him an advantage.

Feat wise, SSFP Broly wasn't too impressive beyond lasting somewhat decently against SSB Gogeta. However, it's clear that, unlike as Super Saiyans, he's clearly outclassed this time around against the Fusion. Broly also only got compared to Beerus, whereas Jiren was compared to the level of God of Destruction as a whole. His full power was enough to even take on the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct Omen, no small feat given that SSB/KKx20 Goku was pushing the former with all his might and STILL barely stalemating Jiren's glare.

That's a power difference DEFINITELY in the order of Fusion through the simple math of it.

I think that SSFP Broly is ultimately equal in power to Jiren's normal full power, maybe slightly above it, but not enough to actually place him as the stronger fighter overall. He mostly just got beat on by a Gogeta fused off of Goku and Vegeta who didn't really get magnitudes of orders stronger through the Tournament of Power; small increases generally, big increases through limit breaks.
Saying the sum of the parts is equal/greater than fusion is contradictory to the entire DB story. Especially when fusion was deemed "unfair" in the Broly movie. Fusion was only used when opponents combined their might and were way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. Jiren NEVER presented such a threat BUT Broly did however.

It's obvious Broly is the stronger of the two.
Fusion wasn't even an option for Goku and Vegeta in TOP because 1) It's impossible to teach in the time frame (ToP was nearly 50 minutes, and Vegeta & Goku took an hour in the movie) and 2) UI activated for Goku when he fought Geran. That didn't happen in the Broli movie.

It's easy to see Geran as stronger than Broli, when the former gets definitive statements that he's GoD level or possibly beyond and the latter only gets a maybe that he's that strong.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:08 pm
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:29 pm

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.
Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.
Could be that the multipliers for both forms changed as both of them got stronger.


Such a thing has never been implied. Also, forms rarely if ever change multipliers. And if they did since Freeza mastered his form, the multiplier should go up, so an evenly matched true form Freeza should be way stronger Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Not even.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:57 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:29 pm

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.
Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.
My theory is that Freeza in order to eliminate the strain of his Golden form he reduced the multiplier.

Think of it like in RoF he used SSG2 and in the ToP he used SS.

That's the only way I can explained this.
In Dragon Ball when a form is mastered it usually gets stronger, not weaker. That and dropped has to sizable to say Gold and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are even multipliers now, when Gold took Freeza from noticeably inferior to dominate, especially in the retelling.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:37 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:31 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm


1) God-level characters choosing to not threaten the universe doesn't mean they can't do at all. It's been common knowledge that DB character can maintain their attack potency while keeping their destruction power low ever since Piccolo Daimao blew up the city (or when Roshi blew up the moon). Though, if you still want to be the logic you're using, then most DB character's aren't more than mountain level because their attacks rarely destroy or threaten to destroy more than that.

2) In that case, Freeza/Boo blowing up planets shouldn't matter in any way for these comparisons because they're just to make them look cool.
I don’t know if you really understood the point I made, but since the story isn’t affected by those “feats”, we shouldn’t be saying X character in DBSuper is definitely stronger than Y character in DBGT, since the “feat” aspect isn’t presented consistently in the fights. So, it’s quite possible that a character that wasn’t shown threatening the universe in DBGT to be stronger than a character that did it on DBSuper. I’m not exactly claiming that SSBlue can’t replicate the same collateral damage as SSGod showed before.
But it doesn't really matter if the story is "affected" by that, it's was stated numerous times whether by characters or the narrators himself that if they didn't stop somehow then the universe will be destroyed. And that alone puts SSG above Omega Shenlong because the latter actually wanted to destroy the universe, but if he could've done as easy as SSG, then he simply would've done so instead of going for the "Infecting planets with Negative Energy" route.
Why do you assume SSBlue can do that and Omega Shenron can’t? Both never did it, but at least we know one of them could. Why Omega Shenron would even do that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:37 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:31 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:04 pm

I don’t know if you really understood the point I made, but since the story isn’t affected by those “feats”, we shouldn’t be saying X character in DBSuper is definitely stronger than Y character in DBGT, since the “feat” aspect isn’t presented consistently in the fights. So, it’s quite possible that a character that wasn’t shown threatening the universe in DBGT to be stronger than a character that did it on DBSuper. I’m not exactly claiming that SSBlue can’t replicate the same collateral damage as SSGod showed before.
But it doesn't really matter if the story is "affected" by that, it's was stated numerous times whether by characters or the narrators himself that if they didn't stop somehow then the universe will be destroyed. And that alone puts SSG above Omega Shenlong because the latter actually wanted to destroy the universe, but if he could've done as easy as SSG, then he simply would've done so instead of going for the "Infecting planets with Negative Energy" route.
1) Why do you assume SSBlue can do that 2) and Omega Shenron can’t? Both never did it, but at least we know one of them could. 3) Why Omega Shenron would even do that?
1) Because SSB is definitely stronger than SSG (who did that), that's why SSB can do it as well. Do you believe that SS3 Goku can't blow up a planet because he never did it despite being much stronger than DBZ Freeza?

2) I've already stated why. SSG's means of destroying the universe is much faster than the Omega's "Infecting planet" route seeing as how the former needed to only do three punches in, and the latter needed a large time to set up.

3) To destroy the universe like he planned to.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 pm
1) Because SSB is definitely stronger than SSG (who did that), that's why SSB can do it as well. Do you believe that SS3 Goku can't blow up a planet because he never did it despite being much stronger than DBZ Freeza?

2) I've already stated why. SSG's means of destroying the universe is much faster than the Omega's "Infecting planet" route seeing as how the former needed to only do three punches in, and the latter needed a large time to set up.

3) To destroy the universe like he planned to.
Blowing up the planet should be even easier. Why didn’t Omega Shenron just destroy the planets one by one?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:17 pm

HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:57 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm
HeroR wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 pm


Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.
My theory is that Freeza in order to eliminate the strain of his Golden form he reduced the multiplier.

Think of it like in RoF he used SSG2 and in the ToP he used SS.

That's the only way I can explained this.
In Dragon Ball when a form is mastered it usually gets stronger, not weaker. That and dropped has to sizable to say Gold and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are even multipliers now, when Gold took Freeza from noticeably inferior to dominate, especially in the retelling.
Just because he hasn't happend doesn't mean it can't.

Fact is Golden Freeza did decrease his multiplier and assuming he overclocked his transformation in RoF but not in the ToP explains things nicely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am

Until I see real feats from FP SS Broly, I'm not buying he is stronger than Jiren. We can argue all year long, the fact remains the same: Jiren almost defeats MUI Goku, the guy that had all the GoDs standing up in awe and Beerus clenching his teeth out of envy. Actually MUI wasn't enough to ring him out or knock him out cold. It took three guys together to take him out after that beating!

While Broly, well, he is still wondering how could he ever lay hands on a non-UI dude. If they really wanted to portray FPSS Broly as the new boss, then they could've let him land at least 1 (one) blow, right? but FPSS Broly landed 0(zero) blows against SSB Gogeta. Zero. Not even one. That was the most uneven fight I've seen in a long time, I wanted Broly to hit Gogeta at least once, I felt sorry for him, really.
If FPSS Broly put up a fight instead of being an angry punching ball, then yes, I would probably say Jiren has no chance. Or if they had Goku say something much clearer than MAYBE stronger than Beerus.

On the other hand, Jiren is clearly stronger than his GoD who was said to be stronger than Beerus. And who knows Beerus better? Whis or us? I'm not that arrogant to question a teacher talking about his student just so I can be right, Beerus is stated to be inferior to Belmond in physical strenght, at best they are the same tier, and Jiren is out of Belmond's league by the time the ToP ended. One can feel free to argue Whis's statement, I won't be taking part of that. So, statements alone put Jiren above Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 am

Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:36 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:13 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:59 pm
Seeing as how Ultra Instinct is portrayed as generally on the same level as if not vastly superior to even SSB Fusion, I'm inclined to think that HP Jiren surpasses SSFP Broly by a fairly wide margin.

I will grant that SSFP Broly might be stronger than regular FP Jiren, but ONLY in raw power, and certainly not enough to really grant him an advantage.

Feat wise, SSFP Broly wasn't too impressive beyond lasting somewhat decently against SSB Gogeta. However, it's clear that, unlike as Super Saiyans, he's clearly outclassed this time around against the Fusion. Broly also only got compared to Beerus, whereas Jiren was compared to the level of God of Destruction as a whole. His full power was enough to even take on the Genkidama and Ultra Instinct Omen, no small feat given that SSB/KKx20 Goku was pushing the former with all his might and STILL barely stalemating Jiren's glare.

That's a power difference DEFINITELY in the order of Fusion through the simple math of it.

I think that SSFP Broly is ultimately equal in power to Jiren's normal full power, maybe slightly above it, but not enough to actually place him as the stronger fighter overall. He mostly just got beat on by a Gogeta fused off of Goku and Vegeta who didn't really get magnitudes of orders stronger through the Tournament of Power; small increases generally, big increases through limit breaks.
Saying the sum of the parts is equal/greater than fusion is contradictory to the entire DB story. Especially when fusion was deemed "unfair" in the Broly movie. Fusion was only used when opponents combined their might and were way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. Jiren NEVER presented such a threat BUT Broly did however.

It's obvious Broly is the stronger of the two.
Fusion wasn't even an option for Goku and Vegeta in TOP because 1) It's impossible to teach in the time frame (ToP was nearly 50 minutes, and Vegeta & Goku took an hour in the movie) and 2) UI activated for Goku when he fought Geran. That didn't happen in the Broli movie.

It's easy to see Geran as stronger than Broli, when the former gets definitive statements that he's GoD level or possibly beyond and the latter only gets a maybe that he's that strong.
Jiren's definitive statement was only stronger than Belmond. Goku beat Jiren with UI therefore stronger than Belmond. Since Beerus is Goku's benchmark [Magazine guide didn't even know if Mastered UI Goku was stronger than Beerus with a "might be"] he is stronger than both Jiren and Belmond. Therefore the much stronger opponent than Jiren in Broly got the only comparison to Goku's benchmark in name, with the word "probably stronger than Beerus."

Fusion was available with the Patora. However, Goku and Vegeta never considered it because they were sure enough that they could beat Jiren with their own power. They never lost hope against Jiren. It doesn't matter if UI was there for Goku in the TOP. The fact is, even if Goku went UI against Broly, still would be a more powerful UI Goku than the one Jiren fought. So it's still demonstrates Broly is stronger.

Toriyama's narration always has fusion as Goku and Vegeta's last resort. They use it against opponents who have merged in order to even the score, who are way out of their league and it also hurts their pride. Since they refuse to use it because it is not their own power. Broly is stronger than Jiren who lost to a single when Broly lost to a full power double and some.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:38 am

So, I've thrown this out before, but how powerful do you guys think the base Saiyans were in the Broly movie before Broly amped up with Oozaru power to surpass Super Saiyan Vegeta?

Goku, Vegeta, and Broly were all pretty much equal in power in their base forms before Broly started adapting and drawing out more of his hidden power, but since they never fight anyone else to act as a comparison, we don't know where they're supposed to rest.

I ask because the movie more closely follows Toriyama's outline of things due to being a movie and not a full series, and I wonder just where he thinks everyone should be and how that's presented in the film.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:04 am

I honestly don’t understand these vehement opinions about Jiren vs. Broli. There is nothing comparing them. It doesn’t matter if they are compared to Gods of Destruction, or have fought completely different characters in different forms. It’s quite possible that either one is stronger than the other. Time will tell.
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:07 pm
Many seem to call the God's Crimson Radiance state (my thing), Chou Super Saiyan or whatever. I am reffering to the Post-SSJG SSJ Goku of course, which imo is a primitive stage of Super Saiyan Blue.

Now, is this the same form with the SSJ produced by the failed God Ritual? If not, then what should we name that? It is clearly just an empowered SSJ but when SSJ4 was practically going through the same power-up it became known as a Ultra Full Power SSJ4. Should this be a UFP SSJ? Would it be possible for the same form to have been used against Z Broly by Goku? I mean Piccolo is a Namekian, but wasn't just pure energy what was being given to Goku?

And of course, it is out of question that this form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan 2 Quake of Fury (my naming for Vegeta's powerups which is clearly distinctive from SSJ2 Rage) and even Super Vegito.

But would it be stronger than God's Crimson Radiance SSJ Goku? Or even than his Post-SSJG Base which was tapping into that power too?
I don’t recall these super specific names. They are just Super Saiyan with different powerlevels. The first attempt of creating SSGod produced a powered-up version, but there isn’t a consensus on how much powerful it is, so it’s not out of question that it is weaker than SS Vegetto, for example, but it’s probably weaker than the version which Goku fought Beerus with.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:38 am
So, I've thrown this out before, but how powerful do you guys think the base Saiyans were in the Broly movie before Broly amped up with Oozaru power to surpass Super Saiyan Vegeta?
Much stronger than all Freeza thugs and weaker than Final Form Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:01 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:10 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 pm
1) Because SSB is definitely stronger than SSG (who did that), that's why SSB can do it as well. Do you believe that SS3 Goku can't blow up a planet because he never did it despite being much stronger than DBZ Freeza?

2) I've already stated why. SSG's means of destroying the universe is much faster than the Omega's "Infecting planet" route seeing as how the former needed to only do three punches in, and the latter needed a large time to set up.

3) To destroy the universe like he planned to.
Blowing up the planet should be even easier. Why didn’t Omega Shenron just destroy the planets one by one?
Because going from planet to planet would’ve been slower than Omega’s infection method which multiplies the more it destroys. But even that method is still slower than three-shotting the universe through punches.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:37 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 am
1) Jiren's definitive statement was only stronger than Belmond. Goku beat Jiren with UI therefore stronger than Belmond. Since Beerus is Goku's benchmark [Magazine guide didn't even know if Mastered UI Goku was stronger than Beerus with a "might be"] he is stronger than both Jiren and Belmond. Therefore the much stronger opponent than Jiren in Broly got the only comparison to Goku's benchmark in name, with the word "probably stronger than Beerus."

2) Fusion was available with the Patora. However, Goku and Vegeta never considered it because they were sure enough that they could beat Jiren with their own power. They never lost hope against Jiren. It doesn't matter if UI was there for Goku in the TOP. The fact is, even if Goku went UI against Broly, still would be a more powerful UI Goku than the one Jiren fought. So it's still demonstrates Broly is stronger.

3) Toriyama's narration always has fusion as Goku and Vegeta's last resort. They use it against opponents who have merged in order to even the score, who are way out of their league and it also hurts their pride. Since they refuse to use it because it is not their own power. Broly is stronger than Jiren who lost to a single when Broly lost to a full power double and some.
1) Despite that, there's still nothing on if Vermoud's and Beerus's are any different. On top of that, EP130 Geran unlocked even more power and it increased dramatically from his former full-power which would at least make him dramatically stronger than Vermoud and most likely Beerus.

2) Goku and Vegeta simply didn't try fusion because messing it up even once (let alone twice like in the movie) would've cost them the tournament. Their hope didn't waiver against Geran because they were actually using SSBKKx20 & SSBE and could beat Geran by a ring-out. If we're still going with the "Broli forced them to fuse, while Geran didn't" then it's still not a 1-to-1 comparison because Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse while Geran would've had to make a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE fuse.

3) That narration isn't consistent in Boo arc, because they resorted to the Genki-Dama after fusing. It also isn't consistent in the movie, because they didn't even use their best forms nor Genki-Dama before they fused against an Broli (who wasn't fused). The entire point of "fusing is a last resort" as a reason for why someone is stronger than another is shaky at best, because do it when they have a bit of trouble.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:50 am

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:01 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:10 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 pm
1) Because SSB is definitely stronger than SSG (who did that), that's why SSB can do it as well. Do you believe that SS3 Goku can't blow up a planet because he never did it despite being much stronger than DBZ Freeza?

2) I've already stated why. SSG's means of destroying the universe is much faster than the Omega's "Infecting planet" route seeing as how the former needed to only do three punches in, and the latter needed a large time to set up.

3) To destroy the universe like he planned to.
Blowing up the planet should be even easier. Why didn’t Omega Shenron just destroy the planets one by one?
Because going from planet to planet would’ve been slower than Omega’s infection method which multiplies the more it destroys. But even that method is still slower than three-shotting the universe through punches.
Why are you assuming he wants to do that as fast as possible? How do you know that?

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