Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

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Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:55 pm

First off, I apologize if this is not worthy of a thread.

I would like to put forward the petition that fans start using SS as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan, and not SSJ. I'm not sure where this is originated from but it's become more pervasive to me that we're using it out of tradition and it makes us as a community look backwards and, frankly, kind of ignorant.

I used it once upon a time as well, but was only following the bandwagon before I soon realized that the primary Japanese fan community doesn't even use it and it may seem strange to them. It's actually kind of the opposite, they use SS while we use SSJ. In fact, Saiyajin is supposed to be only one word (although the root has been used in other ways, like Saiya power).

Also, all the official English and Japanese AFAIK use SS and not SSJ to denote Super Saiyan.

This isn't some English vs Japanese terms of preference btw. Like legit SSJ makes no sense from either standpoint, because it's not two words, it's just one.

Thoughts? If not, why should SSJ stay? If so, how can we finally try to make a change in the community as a whole?

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:16 pm

I never used "SSJ" cause it's incorrect. However all you can do is inform, and people will have to decide themselves if they will stop using it.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm

Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh......

You want to use "SS"... to describe a race that can turn into super-powered blond people with blue eyes...

...You absolutely positive that couldn't go wrong? In any way?
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:56 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm
Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh......

You want to use "SS"... to describe a race that can turn into super-powered blond people with blue eyes...

...You absolutely positive that couldn't go wrong? In any way?
This is what I was thinking. Besides, 'SS' can mean many other things in English, whereas 'SSJ' is unique and everyone will know what you are talking about.
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Plenty of people do. In fact, I'd wager most do. Where, besides communities with crusty old people like here, do you see people using "SSJ" in earnest? I don't say that as some challenge or mocking rhetorical question - I'd genuinely love to know, because any time I see it come up elsewhere, it's just people asking what SSJ means without anyone ever actually saying SSJ in any surrounding context!

(PS - Most folks who used/use "Saiya-jin" typically do so as such: hyphenated. This is one of the many reasons, Nazi nonsense included, that folks my age adopted "SSJ" as the acronym over "SS".)

(PPS - General reminder that quite a few countries' localizations use "Saiyajin" or "Saiya-jin".)

You do you. People will probably know what you mean. My solution was simply to stop ever hyphenating it (and since I'm typically writing long-form content anyway, that's not an issue.)
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by KBABZ » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:13 pm

Honestly it doesn't really matter to me. Dragon Ball has SO MANY different takes and preferential spellings on things (including Goku, Son Goku, Son Gokuu and Gokou, to list just a single character) that you can't get hung up on which is the best, intended, most superior one. Sometimes I'll use a dub-ism for convenience, like when I use Special Beam Cannon, or I'll use one that I like better because that's what I grew up hearing, like Flying Nimbus.

But to me it's fruitless and more than a bit daft to try and impose your terminology viewpoint on others. The important thing is that we all know what we're talking about, and that generally isn't a problem around here.

The exception of course is Hercule.
Fionordequester wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm
Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh......

You want to use "SS"... to describe a race that can turn into super-powered blond people with blue eyes...

...You absolutely positive that couldn't go wrong? In any way?
Honestly I don't think this matters too much. SS is still used for ships for example, including Pokémon's SS Anne. Plus their eyes turn green anyways, not blue.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:51 pm

I love the idea of a petition. It tickles me in certain ways to think that there's someone out there that thinks that a bunch of "signatures" from like-minded people, should dictate others' artistic vision (like a movie, book, or TV show), or in this case, preference. I'm astounded to think that someone actually thinks that they can get others to to do what they prefer through something as comically nonsensical as a petition.

I feel like anyone can find others to sign anything. But even so, why do it? Does it really bother anyone that different people prefer different terminology? I don't use abbreviations at all -- I am perfectly fine writing out the whole name for it. But I'm not telling others not to use abbreviations.

I'm not trying to come off aggressively, but I apologize if I did. I just legitimately don't understand what anyone thinks a petition would accomplish. No website with any number of people would influence me to change my preference.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Char Aznable » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:17 pm

‘SSJ’ is a holdout term from the 90s and early 2000s that is just really hard to shake now, I for one find ‘SS’ or ‘SS2’, etc., to just be...weird? Yeah, I guess you can say weird. It’s just not what I’m used to reading or using.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:01 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:56 pm
Fionordequester wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 pm
Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh......

You want to use "SS"... to describe a race that can turn into super-powered blond people with blue eyes...

...You absolutely positive that couldn't go wrong? In any way?
This is what I was thinking. Besides, 'SS' can mean many other things in English, whereas 'SSJ' is unique and everyone will know what you are talking about.
I honestly had no idea that such an acronym in regards to Nazi Germany even existed. However, I am almost certain that most fans will not recognize such a connection simply because it is quite obscure especially as an acronym.

Also as others mentioned their eyes turn green, not blue. Sure it's not that much different but a nuance is a nuance.
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:13 pm
Honestly it doesn't really matter to me. Dragon Ball has SO MANY different takes and preferential spellings on things (including Goku, Son Goku, Son Gokuu and Gokou, to list just a single character) that you can't get hung up on which is the best, intended, most superior one. Sometimes I'll use a dub-ism for convenience, like when I use Special Beam Cannon, or I'll use one that I like better because that's what I grew up hearing, like Flying Nimbus.

But to me it's fruitless and more than a bit daft to try and impose your terminology viewpoint on others. The important thing is that we all know what we're talking about, and that generally isn't a problem around here.

The exception of course is Hercule.
Oh no, I'm quite sure that everyone who's been in the community long enough will know what "SSJ" or "SS" refers to when used. Context is often easy to identify in DB. However, it's often about how it is posed to a newcomer or even an outside anime community. As VegettoEX mentioned, many newcomers would ask what does "SSJ" stand for, and then we tell them, and then they will immediately register the words "Saiya" and "Jin" as if Jin is a normal word in Japanese by itself! And people who are even somewhat versed in Japanese know better, that Jin by itself is not used in Japanese but rather it is used with more than one Kanji character or when describing a certain class of people/race. And that's because "Jin" is the Chinese reading vs. "Hito" which is the Japanese reading where the latter can often be separated as a single word. If it were "Saiya no hito" then SH or SNH would make sense but "Jin" does not, as far as my understanding goes.

Basically we are teaching foreigners bad Japanese grammar and vocab manners. We are also not helping localize certain official terms or conventions (i.e. SS) used that make sense, just like we are not helping by using official localization terms such as Special Beam Cannon that make no sense.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:05 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:51 pm
I love the idea of a petition. It tickles me in certain ways to think that there's someone out there that thinks that a bunch of "signatures" from like-minded people, should dictate others' artistic vision (like a movie, book, or TV show), or in this case, preference. I'm astounded to think that someone actually thinks that they can get others to to do what they prefer through something as comically nonsensical as a petition.

I feel like anyone can find others to sign anything. But even so, why do it? Does it really bother anyone that different people prefer different terminology? I don't use abbreviations at all -- I am perfectly fine writing out the whole name for it. But I'm not telling others not to use abbreviations.

I'm not trying to come off aggressively, but I apologize if I did. I just legitimately don't understand what anyone thinks a petition would accomplish. No website with any number of people would influence me to change my preference.
I didn't literally mean a petition. I was just putting forward the idea that we should try to spread and enable the usage of SS for Super Saiyan and eliminate this absolutely erroneous use of SSJ.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:10 pm

At the end of the day...who cares? It's just an artifact of the old days and people wound up following along with it.
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by KBABZ » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:20 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:01 pm
Basically we are teaching foreigners bad Japanese grammar and vocab manners. We are also not helping localize certain official terms or conventions (i.e. SS) used that make sense, just like we are not helping by using official localization terms such as Special Beam Cannon that make no sense.
But Dragon Ball kinda intrinsically has that problem in the way Goku himself talks. It's been emphasized by folks like Julian that manga like Dragon Ball are terrible ways to learn how to speak Japanese because of the informal dialects.

I would also like to point out that many acronyms derive letters from syllables in the name; SSJ is taking its letters from the primary syllables of Super Saiyajin, which isn't that hard to figure out.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Tian » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:51 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:20 pm
But Dragon Ball kinda intrinsically has that problem in the way Goku himself talks. It's been emphasized by folks like Julian that manga like Dragon Ball are terrible ways to learn how to speak Japanese because of the informal dialects.
True. The translator of the Mexican dub had said something like that:
Español: le debo mucho a Gokú, siempre fue mi maestro de japonés, aunque lamentablemente habla un idioma muy vulgar y yo no podía hablar así, seguí estudiando japonés, regresé a México, y a perfeccionarlo más que nada.

English: I owe a lot to Goku, he always was my Japanese teacher, although he unfortunately speaks in a too vulgar language and I couldn't speak like that, I continued studying Japanese, went back to Mexico, and improve it more than anything.
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Vijay » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:50 am

Never dreamt I'd see the day when someone suggests using "SS" as "SSJ" implies fans are stuck-up @ ancient/backward heydays

I personally feel its unethical to impose views on every user. That being said, I myself used SS when I was newbie...even before I even knew anythin abt Kanzenshuu.

Now...I feel as if its matter of pride. Using SSJ not only feels like homage, old fans tributing to original japanese version but with Super, Heroes still on-going & with Kanzenshuu being the only place with remaining original Japanese version fans discussing, it appears as if "SSJ" or any original japanese version associated terms must be made status quo.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:27 am

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:05 pm
I didn't literally mean a petition. I was just putting forward the idea that we should try to spread and enable the usage of SS for Super Saiyan and eliminate this absolutely erroneous use of SSJ.
Yeah, but why? Here's what I find interesting: we live in a world where expression, opinions, preferences, and passions are accepted and celebrated... until they differ from the norm; then they're looked down upon. Now the "norm" has shifted and moved to "counterculture," which has become the norm to those people that follow that. Express yourself and do what makes you happy... unless it goes against my way of thinking, then don't do it. I can wear a torn up tshirt that looks like it hasn't seen a washing machine in 5 years, spike my hair up to look like a Super Saiyan, and put on green lipstick and it's all cool, but if I put on one of those stupid red hats, the entire mood changes. A person could show up to a rally to support ending world hunger, but would get vilified for supporting construction of a homeless shelter in a particular neighborhood (seen first hand).

I support people's preferences to use whichever technology they want for whichever reason they want. Yes, this isn't as extreme as my other examples, but what's wrong with supporting different views? It's "erroneous," but who cares? You tell them, they nod, and continue on with their lives. I think it's silly to use "Frieza," but I know why people do. I think it's ridiculous when someone uses a Japanese name like "Toppo" and a dubism like "Spirit Bomb" in the same sentence, but it's okay.

I don't think it's up to me to control others, I can only control myself. I control how I spell things, which terminology I use, etc. I can share my opinion and that's about it.

For example, I like to use "Kurilin." There's a reason I like it -- I like that it keeps the "kuri" pun, and can still read like the dub version of his name, so I don't use a different spelling than when I say it out loud. Someone could argue with me that it's "erroneous." I mean, I can argue it right back, but at the end of the day, as much as I understand why others wouldn't use it, it won't stop me from using it. It's the same thing -- people know why they use "SSJ" even if you don't, so what's the problem?

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by omegacwa » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:08 am

I typically use SSJ for the Z forms, so SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 and SSJ4 for GT but when we get to the god forms I drop the J for some reason. So SSG, SSGSS or SSB, and SSGSSE or SSBE.

I remember a long time ago someone somewhere saying "SS Goku? What is that? The name of a ship?" So I always associate SS with that and it sounds wrong.

Personally I don't care which version you use. I'll know what you mean.

Also, side note, I feel like a I use a mix of dub and original terms. Not sure why that is. Like I call him Toppo and probably will forever, but I swap between Genki Dama and Spirit Bomb. I spell Freeza this way and not Frieza. I'm sure there are more I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:21 am

I'll never stop use SSJ because that come from Supâ Saiya-jin and for me that give a foreign feeling to the terms. I mostly use the japanese terms over any dub one. For me it's just that I stick to the original, the japanese terms are so much cooler (pun intended) and exotic that's nice change of pace.

You will never saw me use Cumber for Kanba and I use Kyabe for Cabba (beside in France a cabas it's certain type of bag, thus I use Kyabe). Though I admit I use Broly instead of Broli because I don't know the name looks more badass with an Y than a I.

Beside SS1 or SS2 when I read it at loud voice either in english or in french that doesn't appeal to me it feels like there is something missing. Or SSJ1 or SSJ2 the sound J had a little awesome feeling that please my hear.
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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Rakurai » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:58 am

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:20 pm
But Dragon Ball kinda intrinsically has that problem in the way Goku himself talks. It's been emphasized by folks like Julian that manga like Dragon Ball are terrible ways to learn how to speak Japanese because of the informal dialects.

I would also like to point out that many acronyms derive letters from syllables in the name; SSJ is taking its letters from the primary syllables of Super Saiyajin, which isn't that hard to figure out.
I get what you're saying, and I think that's an exaggeration. Yes Goku talks with a fairly Japanese slangy manner (he is no worse than a lot of rap/hip-hop artists speaking in slangy English), but he's the only one out of countless other characters in DB, some of who can speak in very formal Japanese (e.g. Frieza, Gohan, Whis). Reading DB manga has helped me in a not-so-terrible manner. Otherwise you might as well discourage people who are learning Japanese from reading most of Shonen Jump manga.

And you miss my point. Saiyajin isn't two words (IE not Saiya Jin); it's one. That would be like abbreviating "Oozaru" as "OZ" in something like Golden Oozaru (GO/GOZ). I know that's not an acronym in use in DB and there's not many acronyms that use Oozaru in general but my point still stands.
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:27 am

Yeah, but why? Here's what I find interesting: we live in a world where expression, opinions, preferences, and passions are accepted and celebrated... until they differ from the norm; then they're looked down upon. Now the "norm" has shifted and moved to "counterculture," which has become the norm to those people that follow that. Express yourself and do what makes you happy... unless it goes against my way of thinking, then don't do it. I can wear a torn up tshirt that looks like it hasn't seen a washing machine in 5 years, spike my hair up to look like a Super Saiyan, and put on green lipstick and it's all cool, but if I put on one of those stupid red hats, the entire mood changes. A person could show up to a rally to support ending world hunger, but would get vilified for supporting construction of a homeless shelter in a particular neighborhood (seen first hand).

I support people's preferences to use whichever technology they want for whichever reason they want. Yes, this isn't as extreme as my other examples, but what's wrong with supporting different views? It's "erroneous," but who cares? You tell them, they nod, and continue on with their lives. I think it's silly to use "Frieza," but I know why people do. I think it's ridiculous when someone uses a Japanese name like "Toppo" and a dubism like "Spirit Bomb" in the same sentence, but it's okay.

I don't think it's up to me to control others, I can only control myself. I control how I spell things, which terminology I use, etc. I can share my opinion and that's about it.

For example, I like to use "Kurilin." There's a reason I like it -- I like that it keeps the "kuri" pun, and can still read like the dub version of his name, so I don't use a different spelling than when I say it out loud. Someone could argue with me that it's "erroneous." I mean, I can argue it right back, but at the end of the day, as much as I understand why others wouldn't use it, it won't stop me from using it. It's the same thing -- people know why they use "SSJ" even if you don't, so what's the problem?
The first and second bold I support. The third bold I do not. They can be mutually exclusive. If something is wrong then I will call it out.

I am not trying to force, control, or brainwash people into using SS instead of SSJ. I am trying to bring about a change by clearing up some misassumptions and pointing out errors in the use of terminology, coupled with official media usage. Now there are times when the official media gets it wrong or contradicts itself, but this is not one of them and a case where both the English and Japanese conventions actually converge. It is up to you in the end to decide what to use, but to keep using something from the old fan days when anybody who contributed set their own jargon is just straight up backwards to me. It's like using the term "Mystic Gohan" when all official media points towards Ultimate Gohan. Or like using "KHH" as an abbreviation for Kamehameha which I don't need to explain why is also really, really wrong to use.

Also to point out, your example is a wrong one. Toppo is an official localization name for English subs. Obviously translated to English the pun should remain (IE it should be Top, I think this is true for the English dub) but it is what it is. So using "Toppo" and "Spirit bomb" in the same sentence is still correct in the context of localization. But I get what you mean by it.
omegacwa wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:08 am
I typically use SSJ for the Z forms, so SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 and SSJ4 for GT but when we get to the god forms I drop the J for some reason. So SSG, SSGSS or SSB, and SSGSSE or SSBE.

I remember a long time ago someone somewhere saying "SS Goku? What is that? The name of a ship?" So I always associate SS with that and it sounds wrong.

Personally I don't care which version you use. I'll know what you mean.

Also, side note, I feel like a I use a mix of dub and original terms. Not sure why that is. Like I call him Toppo and probably will forever, but I swap between Genki Dama and Spirit Bomb. I spell Freeza this way and not Frieza. I'm sure there are more I just can't think of them off the top of my head.
I think the reason why you do this is exactly because of very old translation quips. When the DB Renaissance occurred with BoG, SSGSS was (and still is) used widely, which led to people also adopting derivatives of the acronym like SSG in it. I am personally all in for that as it is both official and is in line with both English and Japanese grammar.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by Tcof » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:03 pm

Saiyajin is supposed to be only one word
Nope
You ever notice Japanese way of speak English ? they always speak the last consonant character out load instead make it silent like it suppose to. Like White, will sound like 'why to'. Black will be 'back ku'. or something like that
in Asian languages, each sound it make a word. This is true for all the case i have seen

So saiyanjin will be pronounce as three words Sai Yan Jin SSJ make perfect sense.

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Re: Petition to use SS, not SSJ, as an abbreviation for Super Saiyan

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:08 pm

Tcof wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:03 pm
So saiyanjin will be pronounce as three words Sai Yan Jin SSJ make perfect sense.
It's five different syllables: sa - i - ya - ji - n. Saying that's different "words" isn't really the best way to describe it. It's one complete phrase meaning the Saiya people.
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