Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

[MyVisionity]

It matters in the context of what was said previously. The suggestion was to turn him into a respectable black person. I'm saying he's not a black person, he is a genie, a creature or whichever. I don't see how a monster like being would suit him being a human black person.

This is what I thought you meant. Sometimes the context is not always clear, so it can get tricky.

i actually really like blue, even if really effeminate villains is kinda overplayed. he's super entertaining and probably more than anything i love his section of the story, those pirate caves are so fun. furukawa's performance in the anime is also so good, lol, despite the issues toei added with him.

The General Blue arc might be my favorite of the Red Ribbon Saga, and Furukawa is great.

The effeminate aspect of the character seems to contribute to the overall stereotype in my view, and not as some kind of sincere depiction of a gay man, so that's interesting. But I am not gay for what it's worth.

https://twitter.com/pspiq3/status/1012118936496812038

The above Twitter post on Popo's origin is a great read, thanks for this.

[supersaiyanZero]

All of the LGBTQIA+ folks who posted in this thread said they didn't want the works censored but you're still going to turn around and say LGBTQIA+ folks are to blame for demanding censorship of older works?

I don't get your argument. Why punch down?

Is "punching down" the new buzzword? Did Dave Chapelle also "punch down"? I wasn't attacking tany specific LBGTQ....IA(?) folks in this thread, at all. I was pointing out how the notion to even being to censor previous works is absolutely ridiculous and spearheaded by what seems to be a politically charged, extremely immature ideology.

The effeminate aspect of the character seems to contribute to the overall stereotype in my view, and not as some kind of sincere depiction of a gay man, so that's interesting

I can see why this would be annoying, but where there is smoke there is fire. I am sure there are plenty of gay bear wrestling lumberjacks who build cabins with their bare hands, but I live in a very metropolitan, very liberal city and work in the creative field. I can tell you that from my experience, for whatever reason, the men here who are gay commonly display a flamboyant, effeminate nature. I understand this is not everybody, but i'd be lying if I said this generally wasn't the case. The guys who do though, generally display other artistic qualities that are generally flagged as "feminine" when it comes to fashion, color, composition, etc. which serves them very well.

Now I don't know where that comes from, whether its a cultural thing or a genetic thing or a weird extroverted expression of who they think they are. And I'll get ripped apart for this but think about the biggest diva you know..chances are it's a gay guy. Call me whatever you want, but I'm also willing to to say that the biggest assholes I know are straight white finance bros who border on being sociopaths. I really do think this warrants an objective discussion on what exactly is going on because I do find it very interesting. I guess my point is we shouldn't be offended too much by caricatures in a show meant for the lowest common denominator, although it would be nice to display a little diversity and complexity to such characters in order to make them more human.

[Soppa Saia People]

Is "punching down" the new buzzword? Did Dave Chapelle also "punch down"? I wasn't attacking tany specific LBGTQ....IA(?) folks in this thread, at all. I was pointing out how the notion to even being to censor previous works is absolutely ridiculous and spearheaded by what seems to be a politically charged, extremely immature ideology.

punching down w/r/t comedy has always been a thing, it's certainly been talked about more and recent years, but that doesn't make it a new thing or a "buzz word".

and yes, chapelle did go out of his way to punch down, he also made a shitty stand up special that covers the same topics as all the other washed up boomer comedians who are mad that they slightly got called out for bad jokes. also, who is saying that in this thread ? no one is saying "censor db, TORIYAMA IS CANCELLED" or anything even close to that.

[supersaiyanZero]

Is "punching down" the new buzzword? Did Dave Chapelle also "punch down"? I wasn't attacking tany specific LBGTQ....IA(?) folks in this thread, at all. I was pointing out how the notion to even being to censor previous works is absolutely ridiculous and spearheaded by what seems to be a politically charged, extremely immature ideology.

punching down w/r/t comedy has always been a thing, it's certainly been talked about more and recent years, but that doesn't make it a new thing or a "buzz word".

and yes, chapelle did go out of his way to punch down, he also made a shitty stand up special that covers the same topics as all the other washed up boomer comedians who are mad that they slightly got called out for bad jokes. also, who is saying that in this thread ? no one is saying "censor db, TORIYAMA IS CANCELLED" or anything even close to that.

Chapelle's special was the funniest, smartest thing I've seen in a while. In no way did he "punch down". In no way did he go "out of his way" to marginalize a group. When his jokes were about black people from his own personal experience, notice how the LBGTQ community wasn't up in arms? I am nowhere near right wing, but the "backlash" (which was what, like 1 vice article 1 vox article, and a 99% audience rotten tomato score after they deliberately tried make it look like it was horribly reviewed..which by the way, EVERYONE should be up in arms about LBGTQ or not) really showed how far off the deep end the far, far left has gone. I saw a man go up on stage and brilliantly expose the hypocrisy of the brand of buzzfeed politics the LBGTQ community uses as well as explore the racial and now ideological divide in the USA today.

[Shaddy]

In no way did he "punch down". In no way did he go "out of his way" to marginalize a group.

He did though. When a straight person, someone who is decidedly and definitively unoppressed in modern society, consciously and intentionally makes fun of and belittles marginalized groups like queer and trans people, that person is contributing to their marginalization. Did he mean to hurt anyone? Does he really hate them? Doesn't matter. Ask not what is in a man's heart but what effect his actions have on the world. And what does it say about you that when you see this...

the "backlash" (which was what, like 1 vice article 1 vox article, and a 99% audience rotten tomato score after they deliberately tried make it look like it was horribly reviewed..which by the way, EVERYONE should be up in arms about LBGTQ or not) really showed how far off the deep end the far, far left has gone

...you defend the idea that any detractors were just triggered far-left weirdos, and not people that maybe just didn't think it was all that funny? How much less plausible is it that some of the people who rated it highly were doing so because they like mean jokes about disenfranchised groups, and wanted to make it look like nobody else had a problem with it?

How viable is your strategy of claiming to not be right-wing at all,

I saw a man go up on stage and brilliantly expose the hypocrisy of the brand of buzzfeed politics the LBGTQ community uses as well as explore the racial and now ideological divide in the USA today.

...when I've seen you respond to discussion about toxic masculinity with "these weird soybeans lol", and you're currently responding to discussion of queer and trans people with "Dave Chappelle DESTROYS those crazy LGBT people!" while characterizing caring about harmful language as some kind of gross fringe belief?

(please say you're a "rational centrist", it'll be fucking hilarious)

[ABED]

He did though. When a straight person, someone who is decidedly and definitively unoppressed in modern society,

He's unoppressed because he's straight?

[Soppa Saia People]

Chapelle's special was the funniest, smartest thing I've seen in a while. In no way did he "punch down". In no way did he go "out of his way" to marginalize a group. When his jokes were about black people from his own personal experience, notice how the LBGTQ community wasn't up in arms?

why would they be ? dave chappelle is a black man, the LGBTQ+ community has tons of people from all different races, why would they be upset about a black man making jokes about black people ? it's actually kind of ironic you bring that up because chapelle himself has talked about the issues that have arose from those jokes, how loads of white people saw it as okay to make those kind of jokes when it's really not and none of them had the comedic edge that prime Chappelle had so it was even more racist.

and much of the backbone of the special was about Chappelle doubling down about his out of touch and bad jokes about the LGBTQ+ community, he absolutely punched down and IIRC he even tried to justify it in the special with "i had a positive interaction with a trans person therefore i'm allowed to make these jokes".

edit :

(please say you're a "rational centrist", it'll be fucking hilarious)

^^^

[supersaiyanZero]

In no way did he "punch down". In no way did he go "out of his way" to marginalize a group.

He did though. When a straight person, someone who is decidedly and definitively unoppressed in modern society, consciously and intentionally makes fun of and belittles marginalized groups like queer and trans people, that person is contributing to their marginalization. Did he mean to hurt anyone? Does he really hate them? Doesn't matter. Ask not what is in a man's heart but what effect his actions have on the world. And what does it say about you that when you see this...

the "backlash" (which was what, like 1 vice article 1 vox article, and a 99% audience rotten tomato score after they deliberately tried make it look like it was horribly reviewed..which by the way, EVERYONE should be up in arms about LBGTQ or not) really showed how far off the deep end the far, far left has gone

...you defend the idea that any detractors were just triggered far-left weirdos, and not people that maybe just didn't think it was all that funny? How much less plausible is it that some of the people who rated it highly were doing so because they like mean jokes about disenfranchised groups, and wanted to make it look like nobody else had a problem with it?

How viable is your strategy of claiming to not be right-wing at all,

I saw a man go up on stage and brilliantly expose the hypocrisy of the brand of buzzfeed politics the LBGTQ community uses as well as explore the racial and now ideological divide in the USA today.

...when I've seen you respond to discussion about toxic masculinity with "these weird soybeans lol", and you're currently responding to discussion of queer and trans people with "Dave Chappelle DESTROYS those crazy LGBT people!" while characterizing caring about harmful language as some kind of gross fringe belief?

(please say you're a "rational centrist", it'll be fucking hilarious)

You know what's fucking hilarious? That I can't make an objective observation on anything the left does without being crucified. I'm either a right wing slimy republican or "rational centrist" who has ties to white supremacy and secretly holds nazi meetings in my basement. How fucking ridiculous is that.

It gets better. I am unable to criticize the idea that not everything is offensive. I am unable to point out that the so called marginalized groups that encompasses every pronoun in the book are crying about oppression without knowing what that means. I am not allowed to have a problem with a vocal minority that cries rape over the silliest things. These people, and I do believe it is a vocal minority absolutely take away from real problems that the gay community as a whole has had to overcome and STILL has to overcome.

Dave Chappelle is "decidedly unopressed"? Are you fucking kidding me? What, because he is rich? Because he's a celebrity? Because he's straight? His whole career has been about exposing the ugly side of America's deep rooted racism and how his own people unknowingly play into that stereotype at the amusement of those in power. Before he was Dave Chappelle he was still a black man living in America and his bits, if you were actually listening, come from his own personal experience and the points of view he has developed about them. That's his biggest draw, he wraps a very profound and deep understanding of racial and socioeconomic divide in something people can digest easily. He was doing it then and he is doing it now.

You want to talk about toxic masculinity? Let's also talk about victim mentality. Let's also talk about who a vocal minority acts as if they are they end all be all when comes to assessing who his toxic and who isn't. What should be said and what shouldn't. That the ideology they peddle is as divisive as it gets. I can go on and on, and give me a stick to shake at the right and I will do so just as vehemently. Its very interesting that you instantly put me in one camp or the other based on the fact that I thought there was nothing wrong with the Chapelle special. Very interesting and telling indeed.

[supersaiyanZero]

Chapelle's special was the funniest, smartest thing I've seen in a while. In no way did he "punch down". In no way did he go "out of his way" to marginalize a group. When his jokes were about black people from his own personal experience, notice how the LBGTQ community wasn't up in arms?

why would they be ? dave chappelle is a black man, the LGBTQ+ community has tons of people from all different races, why would they be upset about a black man making jokes about black people ? it's actually kind of ironic you bring that up because chapelle himself has talked about the issues that have arose from those jokes, how loads of white people saw it as okay to make those kind of jokes when it's really not and none of them had the comedic edge that prime Chappelle had so it was even more racist.

and much of the backbone of the special was about Chappelle doubling down about his out of touch and bad jokes about the LGBTQ+ community, he absolutely punched down and IIRC he even tried to justify it in the special with "i had a positive interaction with a trans person therefore i'm allowed to make these jokes".

edit :

(please say you're a "rational centrist", it'll be fucking hilarious)

^^^

Let me blow your mind: The narrow minded people that took his jokes that way are the same narrow minded people that are taking his jokes as an offensive tirade and running with that narrative. They're both simply unable to comprehend what he is actually saying.

Just because he's black and not gay does not mean he can't have an opinion about an ideological movement that is grounded on borderline draconian tendencies. He is giving us his perspective, as an observer, to what is going in the world around him. It wasn't just the comedic edge that Chappelle had over his would-be competitors, it's the fact that he had something compelling and complex to say underneath it all.

[Soppa Saia People]

Let me blow your mind: The narrow minded people that took his jokes that way are the same narrow minded people that are taking his jokes as an offensive tirade and running with that narrative. They're both simply unable to comprehend what he is actually saying.

Just because he's black and not gay does not mean he can't have an opinion about an ideological movement that is grounded on borderline draconian tendencies. He is giving us his perspective, as an observer, to what is going in the world around him. It wasn't just the comedic edge that Chappelle had over his would-be competitors, it's the fact that he had something compelling and complex to say underneath it all.

but it's not even a unique perspective, so many other comedians who very lightly got called out have made the same type of specials about this type of stuff. yes much of chappelle's early work about race and racism was a bit more cutting edge then what you saw at the time, which makes sense because that's something he deals with and something he understands. it is painfully obvious that chappelle doesn't understand the LGBTQ+ community or the struggles they face, so rather then try and understand it he just went for the same shitty, tired jokes about them, proceed to double down on them, and then went "cancell culture is so hard on rich people like", which again, about 69 other washed up comedian's have done.

[ABED]

Who are the washed up comedians you're referring to?

[supersaiyanZero]

Let me blow your mind: The narrow minded people that took his jokes that way are the same narrow minded people that are taking his jokes as an offensive tirade and running with that narrative. They're both simply unable to comprehend what he is actually saying.

Just because he's black and not gay does not mean he can't have an opinion about an ideological movement that is grounded on borderline draconian tendencies. He is giving us his perspective, as an observer, to what is going in the world around him. It wasn't just the comedic edge that Chappelle had over his would-be competitors, it's the fact that he had something compelling and complex to say underneath it all.

but it's not even a unique perspective, so many other comedians who very lightly got called out have made the same type of specials about this type of stuff. yes much of chappelle's early work about race and racism was a bit more cutting edge then what you saw at the time, which makes sense because that's something he deals with and something he understands. it is painfully obvious that chappelle doesn't understand the LGBTQ+ community or the struggles they face, so rather then try and understand it he just went for the same shitty, tired jokes about them, proceed to double down on them, and then went "cancell culture is so hard on rich people like", which again, about 69 other washed up comedian's have done.

Please tell me the struggles of the gay community in which a man belonging to race that has been openly bought, traded, and sold as property would not understand. A race that has been set back by generations because they were not allowed to be literate. A people who are still to this day depicted in the media as low intellect savages. Who to this day are not allowed to step foot in certain areas, and are still targeted as criminals because of the prejudice instilled by our culture. Please.

This my friends, is the irony of it all.

[JulieYBM]

Trans people are murdered for being trans and it's actually legal, so please don't saying we know nothing about oppression. I just spent two weeks in the south--two thousand miles from home--having to pretend to be cishet so that I didn't get assaulted, raped or sodomized for using the woman's rest room or buying gas and food. I was genuinely fearful of my life when that cop asked to search through my stuff. What if he commented on my woman's clothing in my suitcase? What if he got hostile?

Like, trans people get treated like shit by society, friends and family. Bigotry and discrimination is rral and will psychologically attack us.

Cishet folks don't get to make jokes about 'them Alphabet people'. They don't get to joke about things they know nothing about or not symphasize with. That's their privilege for not having to worry about being called a faggot tranny by their own familes, told they're making a mistake for being themselves, have children taken from them or windi g up jobless and homeless.

[ABED]

No one should be making jokes at the expense of oppressed groups, period, regardless of one's gender, sexual orientation, income, etc. I don't see the humor in making fun of people's unchosen characteristics. Sadly, I think there seems to be a little one-upmanship of whose group is more oppressed than whose going on here.

[MyVisionity]

He did though. When a straight person, someone who is decidedly and definitively unoppressed in modern society,

He's unoppressed because he's straight?

In terms of sexuality (and other social categories), yes he would be privileged and unoppresed. In terms of race, obviously not. It's possible to be both privileged and unprivileged at the same time.

[ABED]

He did though. When a straight person, someone who is decidedly and definitively unoppressed in modern society,

He's unoppressed because he's straight?

In terms of sexuality (and other social categories), yes he would be privileged and unoppresed. In terms of race, obviously not. It's possible to be both privileged and unprivileged at the same time.

Are we going to start weighing these sort of things? Because that feels like the next step with that view. So overall is he privileged or unprivileged?

I have issues with terms like "privilege", but at it's best, what it is about is reminding people that their experiences aren't the same as everyone else's, to not make assumptions, and pay attention to the world around you.

[MyVisionity]

He's unoppressed because he's straight?

In terms of sexuality (and other social categories), yes he would be privileged and unoppresed. In terms of race, obviously not. It's possible to be both privileged and unprivileged at the same time.

Are we going to start weighing these sort of things? Because that feels like the next step with that view. So overall is he privileged or unprivileged?

I have issues with terms like "privilege", but at it's best, what it is about is reminding people that their experiences aren't the same as everyone else's, to not make assumptions, and pay attention to the world around you.

Like I said, he is both oppressed/unprivileged/etc. and unoppressed/privileged/etc., to speak broadly. Just like most people. I'm not attempting to weigh anything, just stating the science of it. Since the topic was regarding sexual orientation/identify/etc., that's where the point of focus is this case.

(I don't know what's wrong with the text formatting, sorry.)

[ABED]

Fair enough.

Has anyone here argued that old DB material should be edited? And I don't just mean this thread. Has anyone seen anyone on this forum argue that the anime and manga should edit out "outdated LGBT+" content?

[Soppa Saia People]

Please tell me the struggles of the gay community in which a man belonging to race that has been openly bought, traded, and sold as property would not understand. A race that has been set back by generations because they were not allowed to be literate. A people who are still to this day depicted in the media as low intellect savages. Who to this day are not allowed to step foot in certain areas, and are still targeted as criminals because of the prejudice instilled by our culture. Please.

This my friends, is the irony of it all.

they aren't mutually exclusive, just because black people are more oppressed currently and historically does not mean that queer people aren't oppressed currently or historically. i won't claim their at the same level as the struggles of black people, indigenous people, asian people, hispanic people, etc, but it's not like the oppression of queer groups doesn't exist, and it's ridiculous to say that it doesn't matter because other oppressed groups have and continue to have it worse. the struggles of queer people are unique and unless you're queer, you won't understand it, just like how if you're not NDN, you're not gonna understand the struggles of indigenous people, and so on. from his special it was clear chappelle doesn't want to understand and doesn't care about the struggles of queer people and instead just wanted to treat them like a joke because he got very minor backlash about his old and tired jokes about them.

[goku the krump dancer]

Fair enough.

Has anyone here argued that old DB material should be edited? And I don't just mean this thread. Has anyone seen anyone on this forum argue that the anime and manga should edit out "outdated LGBT+" content?

Not that I can think of.. Hell I think the LGBT discussions haven't been very prevalent on this forum at all up until the past few months, not that its a bad thing, as time goes on and allows societies to "Change" and as long as Dragon Ball continues to be a main stay in the anime industry, the doors will continue to open about how different subject matters apply to the series we all on this forum hold near and dear. Which is cool, it can allow for some challenging discussions, which is healthy for the brain.


That said though, I think a lot of folks forget how unapologetic and insensitive ( I guess ) Japan is/can be. Remember guys, yes they may all say sumimasen and arigato but this is also still the place where people can buy USED fricken PANTIES from a vending machine.and sniff em This is also the place where people can buy brown skin spray to look more like "Kokujin" (Black People) when they go to hip-hop clubs.

Anything can be played up for a joke if done without malice and thats how comedians typically write their material and you're allowed not to like it if you dont want to but that doesnt make the comedian a bad person, it just means you're not fond of certain jokes and thats okay too.

Dragon Ball's depiction of a gay guy was played up just fine if you ask me. General Blue was a villain at the end of the day, he was a general of an army who was seeking world domination, who just so happens to be fonder of guys and it wasnt until he ogled over a kid where he was kinda considered gross but again it wasnt the focal point of him or the arc as whole, its just a tidbit about him that makes him stand out a bit.