"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:21 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:57 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:30 pm

As for the chapter itself... Once again, Toriyama has come up with a creative new opponent for everyone to fight in Super, and once again that opponent is encased in a shell of zero personality... Ugh.
We still don't know Toriyama's involvement in all of this. Personally I don't really feel Toriyama in this arc at all
Which really doesn't make much sense since it was initially said that he would be more involved than usual.

The way I see it, either he provided a more solid explanation of this arc to Toyotaro (which means that a potential anime adaptation which can happen since it was a manga-only chapter given how the Super anime had concluded in a previous arc, would be nearly exactly the same) or he was heavily involved early on and then passed the torch to Toyo yet again, once he thought that no more assistance was required.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:37 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:21 am
Which really doesn't make much sense since it was initially said that he would be more involved than usual.

The way I see it, either he provided a more solid explanation of this arc to Toyotaro (which means that a potential anime adaptation which can happen since it was a manga-only chapter given how the Super anime had concluded in a previous arc, would be nearly exactly the same) or he was heavily involved early on and then passed the torch to Toyo yet again, once he thought that no more assistance was required.
I remember Toyo saying he's teaming up with Toriyama for the next story. That's about all I've heard since last year. My take is, it's a Toyotaro story with Toyotaro characters, and Toriyama's guidance on what "works" and what doesn't.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am

Regardless of how Toyotaro and Toriyama are now working together, it’s clear that it’s working. The Moro arc has been the best arc in the manga so far. I’d even go so far to say the best arc across both DBS adaptations.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FlpShimizu » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:46 am

The break neck pace of the manga got old once the Anime improved. Now it's flowing in a speed much closer to what we had before Super.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:44 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:57 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:30 pm

As for the chapter itself... Once again, Toriyama has come up with a creative new opponent for everyone to fight in Super, and once again that opponent is encased in a shell of zero personality... Ugh.
We still don't know Toriyama's involvement in all of this. Personally I don't really feel Toriyama in this arc at all
The arrangement has always been that Toriyama writes the story outline, then Toyotaro does a rough draft of the chapters, Toriyama and him exchange notes and make changes (sometimes Toriyama will end up drawing a panel or two himself), and eventually they come to a completed chapter.

Even if Toyotaro is collaborating much more heavily with this story outline, Toriyama should still know better than to have a main villain who's devoid of emotion and personality. And yet, he really has a pattern of doing this kind of thing (Geran, for instance -- that's Jiren, for those of you who prefer incorrect names ;) ).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
Regardless of how Toyotaro and Toriyama are now working together, it’s clear that it’s working. The Moro arc has been the best arc in the manga so far.
I’d even go so far to say the best arc across both DBS adaptations.
That is debatable ... I still believe that the Zamasu arc is still better being more original and with a better villain, in addition to the fact that the fights feel much more choreographe in the Manga

the only thing I see better in the participation of secondary characters but honestly it is something that the anime had already done before and exceeds ...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:57 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm
OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
Regardless of how Toyotaro and Toriyama are now working together, it’s clear that it’s working. The Moro arc has been the best arc in the manga so far.
I’d even go so far to say the best arc across both DBS adaptations.
That is debatable ... I still believe that the Zamasu arc is still better being more original and with a better villain, in addition to the fact that the fights feel much more choreographe in the Manga

the only thing I see better in the participation of secondary characters but honestly it is something that the anime had already done before and exceeds ...
I can't say I agree with the secondary characters being handled better in the anime. In general, Super does a miserable job with its supporting cast. Yeah, they show up, but for what? No one grows, no one develops, and it's just so obvious that there's no story left to tell with 99% of this cast. Everyone was fully developed by the end of the Boo arc and it shows. Toriyama didn't use the cast perfectly, but he knew when it was time to bench certain characters.

Nothing good came out of the anime using Kuririn or Tenshinhan. They're handled even worse in the manga, granted, so maybe I can concede and say the anime did a better job with the supporting cast overall, but even then, it's still a really bad job.

Regardless, the Moro arc is working for me because it's actually allowing itself to breathe. Having just reread the Super manga, it's just so chaotically fast paced and not in a good way. There's no room to explore actual character growth and Toyotaro doesn't compare to Toriyama at all in terms of artistry. But he's gotten better and the Moro arc is taking its time in a way that goes beyond "super long fight with Zamasu."

It's also just refreshing. Moro's a pretty traditional super villain, but I'm perfectly fine with that considering most of the series' antagonists tend to be either Freeza or "Freeza But Bland." Or sometimes just straight up bland!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:11 pm


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:12 pm

Michsi wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:00 pm
BWri wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:46 am
Zamasu55 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:03 am
Piccolo better not job...
Not only did he job out, but he also made mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake, the worst one being leaving all his friends unprotected on the lookout (half of which have no powers) to save Jaco when he knows at minimum Jaco was strong enough to survive a fight with Freeza soldiers so likely strong enough to survive a fall from the lookout. It was overall the most sloppy showing for Piccolo yet, but the deck was also stacked against him with 7-3's cornucopia of buffs. I was hoping after the last chapter that he'd stop making pointless errors, but Toyotaro and Toriyama doubled down on Piccolo being an idiot.
As someone who's really invested in this character and painfully aware of how unfavorably he's been written, I don't see how this chapter was so bad for him. The only mistake he made was not being more careful with getting grabbed by the neck, which can be chalked up to 73 being faster than he suspected- he was distracted at the time.
What exactly made you think he was written like an idiot.
He turned his back on 73 to get the drop on Shima thus opening himself up to getting grabbed after being told one of them copies powers by grabbing. He did that to save the other bad guys, but leaving himself open like that puts his own friends in danger and we see the results of that, his abilities were stolen and he created an impossible situation for himself, one he wouldn't survive without Gohan's intervention. For Piccolo to be such a careful and cerebral character, that was quite dumb.
Also, he didn't abandon his friends,

He did. He left them with someone stronger than he was who could've wiped them all away in one shot. That's dumb.
he went after Jaco because he thought he was in immediate danger of falling to his death, and two of the attackers followed them down- if anything, this drew danger away from the Lookout so it would've been worse if he went back up there .

That's just a lucky happenstance. He had no way of knowing that those two wouldn't just wipe out Dende, Bulma, Satan, Krillin, and the Macareni gang. He knows that they're low down killers, as evidenced by Shima attempting to murder Pasta.
Guess he trusted Kuririn enough to handle one .
Handle a guy stronger than himself and an additional fighter he has no data on? The smarter move is to yell, "Krillin, Jaco, NOW!" Krillin goes to get Jaco and Piccolo gets to keep his eyes on the threats. He was much more tactical in the Garlic Jr. filler arc. This is just ... bad.
Then he flung himself
Yeah, foolishly, leaving everyone including himself vulnerable to attack. It was piss poor decision making. Piccolo's decision making has always been a little bit flawed where he makes these big miscalculations and oversights but they leaned super hard into that in this chapter. I liked the action and the spotlight he received, but man, just let him finish what he starts and not look like a bumbling idiot. Not only that, but he tries to match, move for move, a guy who he knows has infinite stamina.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:15 pm

Toyo retconing manga UI with anime UI is smart. If you can't beat it steal it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:16 pm

Dragon Ball Super has basically doubled down on all of Piccolo's worst aspects from the Boo arc (really, everyone's worst aspects from the Boo arc) without any of the good.

Even in the Boo arc where Piccolo's role is considerably lessened, he is: wise, strategic, and can contribute meaningfully in ways directly outside of combat. He buys just enough time where Goten and Trunks could have killed Boo with their training; he thinks to destroy the Room of Spirit and Time's door, trapping Boo inside, which is a genuinely good idea in spite of Boo temper tantrumming his way out; and he even gets to play volleyball.

Piccolo in the Super manga is just an utter disaster. From Goku telling him he has no chance against Frost and letting Vegeta just take his spot, to now this, it's hard to deny what's happened to Piccolo. Which is a shame because it's so clear that Toriyama wants him around, but neither the anime or the manga has found a way to use Piccolo properly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:21 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:16 pm
Dragon Ball Super has basically doubled down on all of Piccolo's worst aspects from the Boo arc (really, everyone's worst aspects from the Boo arc) without any of the good.

Even in the Boo arc where Piccolo's role is considerably lessened, he is: wise, strategic, and can contribute meaningfully in ways directly outside of combat. He buys just enough time where Goten and Trunks could have killed Boo with their training; he thinks to destroy the Room of Spirit and Time's door, trapping Boo inside, which is a genuinely good idea in spite of Boo temper tantrumming his way out; and he even gets to play volleyball.

Piccolo in the Super manga is just an utter disaster. From Goku telling him he has no chance against Frost and letting Vegeta just take his spot, to now this, it's hard to deny what's happened to Piccolo. Which is a shame because it's so clear that Toriyama wants him around, but neither the anime or the manga has found a way to use Piccolo properly.
My thoughts exactly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:30 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:10 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:33 pm
Piccolo was a brilliant tactician that could hold his own against the fiercest warriors earth had to offer. Now he gets a few panels to job to some newly introduced fodder? Get out of here with that shit.
I never saw that aspect of Piccolo's character in the original series. Like, ever.
There was that aspect to his character, at least compared to others, but it never resulted to much because his plans would usually never be fully realized. He was written so that you could see him being that way because on paper, his plans make a lot of sense, but honestly he was also written as reckless and as someone who isn't fully prepared, is prone to surprise, and not very good at improvising. This chapter seemed to lean into the latter pretty hard. I was hoping he'd grow and overcome, but this is the story of the Saiyans. I shouldn't ever forget that.
Regardless, Toyotaro properly lays down the foundation for why OG73-I is a troublesome opponent, so it made sense for the battle to unfold in the way it did. I wasn't a case of Piccolo jobbing out. It was simply a case of unorthodox ability that, from Piccolo's perspective, he had no counter for.
True. It's why I'm not that upset that he lost. It's just, with how things were written, it's written in a way that the conclusion of Piccolo losing feels like it came before the how. It's like the whole point was for Piccolo to lose and then they filled out the details later. The infinite stamina thing is what makes me feel this way. It feels a bit shoehorned in to me. Infinite stamina is a crazy concept because in this verse it means infinite ki as well. That deserves more than some offhand remark that says some rando prisoner just has it, because ... science planet. And shouldn't Piccolo have thought of some counter to this by now? Not saying he should've figured it out, but as a serious fighter who dealt with this before, seems like he should've put more thought into ways to challenge this.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:01 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:57 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm
OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:23 am
Regardless of how Toyotaro and Toriyama are now working together, it’s clear that it’s working. The Moro arc has been the best arc in the manga so far.
I’d even go so far to say the best arc across both DBS adaptations.
That is debatable ... I still believe that the Zamasu arc is still better being more original and with a better villain, in addition to the fact that the fights feel much more choreographe in the Manga

the only thing I see better in the participation of secondary characters but honestly it is something that the anime had already done before and exceeds ...
I can't say I agree with the secondary characters being handled better in the anime. In general, Super does a miserable job with its supporting cast. Yeah, they show up, but for what? No one grows, no one develops, and it's just so obvious that there's no story left to tell with 99% of this cast. Everyone was fully developed by the end of the Boo arc and it shows. Toriyama didn't use the cast perfectly, but he knew when it was time to bench certain characters.

Nothing good came out of the anime using Kuririn or Tenshinhan. They're handled even worse in the manga, granted, so maybe I can concede and say the anime did a better job with the supporting cast overall, but even then, it's still a really bad job.
Krillin had his fall after retire of battles reliving old traumas in his life so unfortunate with the return of frieza and with his new mental training but that he managed to overcome thanks to the support of his friends and new family that motivated him to continue, not that he was particularly well, thsi worked in principle but the problem is that there was not much he could do in the tournament or some opponent with whom he relates.
piccolo on the other hand had his moment when he training gohan and his interaction with the namekians of U6 served as a character development for him, piccolo felt overwhelmed by the powers of his opponents and the level of sacrifice from they, he feel that he not could defeat them and to believe that he did not deserve to do it either ... this changed when gohan saved him realizing that he was not alone and that you had his reasons to win
so it seemed like a good participation from him
OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:57 pm
Regardless, the Moro arc is working for me because it's actually allowing itself to breathe. Having just reread the Super manga, it's just so chaotically fast paced and not in a good way. There's no room to explore actual character growth and Toyotaro doesn't compare to Toriyama at all in terms of artistry. But he's gotten better and the Moro arc is taking its time in a way that goes beyond "super long fight with Zamasu."
I really agree with that in the manga
OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:57 pm
It's also just refreshing. Moro's a pretty traditional super villain, but I'm perfectly fine with that considering most of the series' antagonists tend to be either Freeza or "Freeza But Bland." Or sometimes just straight up bland!
personally I consider moro is boring with his desire cliche of domination galactic at this point ... with his current powers he must be the least ambitious villain of all[

anyway opinions ...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:40 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:15 pm
Toyo retconing manga UI with anime UI is smart. If you can't beat it steal it.
How's he retconing Manga UI?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:21 am

Enjoyed the chapter.

Know there is some blowback about Piccolo being grabbed and while even he thought it was sloppy, and I do see why, since its made explicitly clear that 73 used a special ability they copied in order to get the sneak up on Piccolo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:53 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:21 am
Enjoyed the chapter.

Know there is some blowback about Piccolo being grabbed and while even he thought it was sloppy, and I do see why, since its made explicitly clear that 73 used a special ability they copied in order to get the sneak up on Piccolo.
I don't know about that. Did 73 use that portal thing? Whatever he did, it wasn't explicit. We don't even know how that portal works if that's what you're mentioning. Is it an object or an ability? Does one jump into it or is it like IT? If 73 had to jump into it, it would just solidify that Piccolo took his eyes off of him, which again, is a bone-headed move.

**NVM. You're right. I reread and saw 73 using the tall hedgehog's teleporting ability just before he attacks Piccolo.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:10 am

I was wondering about what will be of Neo Namek. Can they even bring back the deceased Namekians? Didn’t Shenron already grant that wish once during the battle between Goku and Freeza?

Getting rid of U7 Namekians for good would be a ballsy choice but it could benefit the story by removing another set of DBs to up the tension a little bit and to actually make the Super Dragon Balls more relevant as the gang could be forced to gather them in the future to grant their wishes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:37 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:10 am
I was wondering about what will be of Neo Namek. Can they even bring back the deceased Namekians? Didn’t Shenron already grant that wish once during the battle between Goku and Freeza?

Getting rid of U7 Namekians for good would be a ballsy choice but it could benefit the story by removing another set of DBs to up the tension a little bit and to actually make the Super Dragon Balls more relevant as the gang could be forced to gather them in the future to grant their wishes.
Porunga lives on through Esca, so he can revive the rest of the Namekians. I like the idea of making the "normal" Dragon Ball sets less accessible/usable, but I don't think that's the way things are going.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:53 am

I didn't even consider the possibility of writing out a set of Dragon Balls, but now I so desperately want it even though it probably won't happen.

Even for just an arc or two. I miss having the Dragon Balls out of the picture. Toriyama found creative ways to get around the Dragon Balls between the Piccolo Daimao and Freeza arcs. I want to see the series do that again.
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