I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:10 pm

SS3 is valid.
SS4 is valid.

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:05 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:02 pm
The word “edgy” seems to get used a lot to describe things that people don’t like. I wouldn’t describe SSJ4 as “edgy”, but I will agree that it’s probably not something Toriyama would’ve ever come up with. Still, I think SSJ3 is just as much at fault in leading to this once popular trend of overly designed fan made forms. SSJ4 at least has an interesting concept behind it.
SS3 is so un Toriyama like to me which is why I am convinced he never intended it to be used again which I think goes will us not meant to be seeing Goku ever again once he hits other world. Also with modern DB he and Toei seem fine practically binning the form. The only stickler in my theory is Gotenks but given Gotenks doesn't have pupils I am guessing it was last minute decision on Toriyama's part to have Gotenks go 3 hence why he forgot the pupils. That's what I am sticking with.
Vijay wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:04 am
KBABZ wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:49 am
Normally I'd agree but c'mon, we had Super Saiyan 3 first! That started the trend of a noticeably radical design difference from the previously expressed forms, what with the long hair and pronounced brows. SS4 I agree is a more involved design, but for me it gets a pass because there's a great in-universe justification for it.
What's d great in-universe explanation did SSJ4 had to justify it's existence 🤣🤣🤣

More like TOEI's cheap attempt to cash-in on nother SSJ form to raise their merchandise sales. Dats it
Well up until a few years ago SS4 was one of the least commercialised forms & back when Toei made GT the show was still aimed at kids so there was very little they could commercialise anyway. But since the series is aimed now at well adults basically canon doesn't matter so they are merchandising SS4 out the wazoo to make up for the lost years of marketing.

So if Toei decided to make SS4 just to have it merchandised it decades later you'd be right on the money!

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:09 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:05 pm
SS3 is so un Toriyama like to me which is why I am convinced he never intended it to be used again which I think goes will us not meant to be seeing Goku ever again once he hits other world. Also with modern DB he and Toei seem fine practically binning the form. The only stickler in my theory is Gotenks but given Gotenks doesn't have pupils I am guessing it was last minute decision on Toriyama's part to have Gotenks go 3 hence why he forgot the pupils. That's what I am sticking with.
I have seen some people suggest that the Super Saiyan 3 transformation was meant to be a self-parody of the series’ over reliance on Super Saiyans by that point, but I’m not entirely sure I buy that explanation, since the transformation itself wasn’t really played for laughs in-universe.

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:13 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:09 pm
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:05 pm
SS3 is so un Toriyama like to me which is why I am convinced he never intended it to be used again which I think goes will us not meant to be seeing Goku ever again once he hits other world. Also with modern DB he and Toei seem fine practically binning the form. The only stickler in my theory is Gotenks but given Gotenks doesn't have pupils I am guessing it was last minute decision on Toriyama's part to have Gotenks go 3 hence why he forgot the pupils. That's what I am sticking with.
I have seen some people suggest that the Super Saiyan 3 transformation was meant to be a self-parody of the series’ over reliance on Super Saiyans by that point, but I’m not entirely sure I buy that explanation, since the transformation itself wasn’t really played for laughs in-universe.
I don't buy it either. Everything about how that form is presented implies it's meant to be taken seriously.

I do kinda agree about SSJ4 being glorified fan fiction.
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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by KBABZ » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:20 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:09 pm
I have seen some people suggest that the Super Saiyan 3 transformation was meant to be a self-parody of the series’ over reliance on Super Saiyans by that point, but I’m not entirely sure I buy that explanation, since the transformation itself wasn’t really played for laughs in-universe.
I don't think it was meant to be a parody, but it is a semi-deconstruction as far as "new form is better" that was also explored with the Ascended Super Saiyan thing in the Cell arc. The basic idea is that SS3 IS indeed quite powerful, but it expends so much energy that it's impractical for most situations so you're better off not relying on it. For example, Goku can't hold the form very long when he's alive, it burns through his time among the living while he's brought back thanks to Baba, and it also burns through the time Gotenks can remain fused. It isn't the sure-fire bet that a mastered Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 were, which is a clever subversion of what the audience might expect from Dragon Ball.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Potara-Warrior96 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:00 pm

I disagree with the idea of SSJ4 starting the trend of "bad" fan-forms even though as one User already stated that most fan forms was simple recolors of already existing canon forms. I'm sorry but DBS transformations aren't simple especially if they're recolors of existing forms. This form is imho what one would call simple. It changes Gokus eyes and hair widly but also keeps everything else for the most part untouched.

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:31 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:09 pm
I know this is bait, but this post is ironic funny because the majority of the "Fan designs" from the early 2000s on deviant art and the like were literally just badly done color swaps of SS1-4. (Sound familar? But it's okay because Toriyama/toe made them.)

Super Saiyan 4 isnt "edgy," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Just because it's not a recolor and they did something different it's not "something a teen would make."
really ... not, most they were inspired on SSJ5 ... which is based on the ssj4 only bigger, with more colors and more hair

who do all these look like

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:38 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:31 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:09 pm
I know this is bait, but this post is ironic funny because the majority of the "Fan designs" from the early 2000s on deviant art and the like were literally just badly done color swaps of SS1-4. (Sound familar? But it's okay because Toriyama/toe made them.)

Super Saiyan 4 isnt "edgy," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Just because it's not a recolor and they did something different it's not "something a teen would make."
really ... not, most they were inspired on SSJ5 ... which is based on the ssj4 only bigger, with more colors and more hair

who do all these look like
That second and third one you showed were just recolors too. Not sure wtf that last one is supposed to be.

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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:31 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:38 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:31 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:09 pm
I know this is bait, but this post is ironic funny because the majority of the "Fan designs" from the early 2000s on deviant art and the like were literally just badly done color swaps of SS1-4. (Sound familar? But it's okay because Toriyama/toe made them.)

Super Saiyan 4 isnt "edgy," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Just because it's not a recolor and they did something different it's not "something a teen would make."
really ... not, most they were inspired on SSJ5 ... which is based on the ssj4 only bigger, with more colors and more hair

who do all these look like
That second and third one you showed were just recolors too. Not sure wtf that last one is supposed to be.
the second has more hair, horns and is also based on SSJ4 in addition to having being saturated with colors instead of just one.
the third one wants to combine the SSJ3 and SSJ4 darkening the colors giving a bad look .... edgy
thing that no official transformation does.

The last one is what you get when you think "different" is better ...

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Kefla » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:58 pm

At least Super Saiyan 4, isn’t some cheap repaint of already existing forms. God and Blue are cheap rip-offs.

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:29 pm

Kefla wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:58 pm
At least Super Saiyan 4, isn’t some cheap repaint of already existing forms. God and Blue are cheap rip-offs.
nobody can copy himself ...

SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ SAN DANKAI, SSJ Legendary were visually equal transformations which was fine ... there was no reason for a drastic change ... for some reason there are people who want the Saiyans to have transformations as in other series, the hollow in bleach or kyuuby mode in naruto but for me that doesn't fit with DB and what is established in the series, a change of aura was the most natural

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:05 am

SSJ4 was awesome and a totally new direction that went straight to the roots of Saiyan power.
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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Skar » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:16 pm

Fan fiction transformations have usually been recolors of previous forms. SSJ4 may have started the trend of overly designed forms but there have been many fans who went with a simpler approach of just recoloring base and SSJ. If we ever see an Ultra Instinct SSJ4, it might look the same as the old SSJ5 fanart :think: .

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:29 pm
Kefla wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:58 pm
At least Super Saiyan 4, isn’t some cheap repaint of already existing forms. God and Blue are cheap rip-offs.
nobody can copy himself ...

SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ SAN DANKAI, SSJ Legendary were visually equal transformations which was fine ... there was no reason for a drastic change ... for some reason there are people who want the Saiyans to have transformations as in other series, the hollow in bleach or kyuuby mode in naruto but for me that doesn't fit with DB and what is established in the series, a change of aura was the most natural
Wtf is San dankai??

Regardless, the Grade 2/3 forms weren’t even really new forms. It’s like saying Freeza’s final form and 100% full power are “different forms” when they’re not.

Legendary was it’s own thing all together.

It’s not necessarily that recolors are bad. But after SIX of them in a row, it gets silly.

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:36 pm

You just answered your own question. "Super Saiyajin Dai-Ni Dankai" and "Super Saiyajin Dai-San Dankai" are the Japanese names for "Super Saiyan Grade 2" and "Super Saiyan Grade 3", respectively.
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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:46 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:26 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:29 pm
Kefla wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:58 pm
At least Super Saiyan 4, isn’t some cheap repaint of already existing forms. God and Blue are cheap rip-offs.
nobody can copy himself ...

SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ SAN DANKAI, SSJ Legendary were visually equal transformations which was fine ... there was no reason for a drastic change ... for some reason there are people who want the Saiyans to have transformations as in other series, the hollow in bleach or kyuuby mode in naruto but for me that doesn't fit with DB and what is established in the series, a change of aura was the most natural
Wtf is San dankai??

Regardless, the Grade 2/3 forms weren’t even really new forms. It’s like saying Freeza’s final form and 100% full power are “different forms” when they’re not.

Legendary was it’s own thing all together.

It’s not necessarily that recolors are bad. But after SIX of them in a row, it gets silly.
Frieza was a natural thing ... he use all its power
the others are considered advanced forms and that were achieved through training I do not see it different from the SSBE that was achieved through training.

the last line is a valid argument

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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:06 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:26 pm
It’s not necessarily that recolors are bad. But after SIX of them in a row, it gets silly.
Yep, it's the law of diminishing marginal utility/returns at work.
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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:10 am
SSJ2 was lazy SSJ upgrade that is completely forgotten by staff and was never memorable except for one fight in Cell saga
I find it odd how people say that SS2 was forgotten because of Toriyama's comments back in 2013, especially considering in the Super anime, SS2 is actually the most prominent "classic" SS form. I believe the Saiyans use it more than any other of the OG Super Saiyan forms throughout the 131 episodes, considering:
Goku repeatedly defaults back to it over SS1
This is Vegeta's highest OG SS form achieved
Trunks perfected it and did whatever Super Saiyan Rage is with it
Gohan, whenever he uses Super Saiyan, goes with this
It's the highest level the U6 Saiyans achieved, including Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan 2 form

It seems to me that, at some point between Toriyama's "I forgot SS2 and SS3 are different forms" and "SS2 and SS3 are pointless power increase" interviews back in 2013 and Super's airing from 2015 to 2018, he and the staff believed that Super Saiyan 2 is some optimum state, capable of being stronger than SS1 but not overly taxing like SS3.
I believe it's a different case in the manga, but I've not been following the manga.


On the main topic:
I have a love-hate relationship with SS4. I believe it was damned by GT being a pile more than any inherent awfulness.
GT could have been improved in so many ways. For example: I can accept Goku being turned back into a kid for a while, but only if the Black Star Dragon Balls were in actuality like a monkey's paw version of the original: the wish's intentions are subverted by him actually rapidly aging back to an adult over the course of the year, which makes SS4 no longer such a bizarre state.

SS4 isn't overdesigned; it's bizarrely designed, what with the red fur and eyeliner and magical clothes (though in kung fu fantasy stories, transformations magically creating new clothes isn't exactly a new concept; SS4 is just so subtle with it that it it seems like an animation error). Shift the colors back to brown, get rid of the goth highlights, and you have something closer to what I feel SS4 was meant to be: a callback to Sun Wukong. I mean, the yellow eyes give it away.
SS4 being "Super Wukong" makes it a cool form in principle, but it's all the strangeness that ruins it.
Image

Another thing that ruined SS4 is that it doesn't really feel like a Super Saiyan transformation as much as it feels like an Oozaru transformation that they happened to call "Super Saiyan 4". It definitely feels like the intention was more for it to be a "primal Saiyan".


It being the root of all those edgy fan-transformations, though? Well... Honestly, I'd pin the blame more on the old power-weighed Super Saiyan grades, which introduced the concept of "beyond Super Saiyan". But even then, I think Dragon Ball was always set up for fans coming up with new transformations and power-weighted techniques. In xianxia fiction, it's hard to get invested in a particular level of power because you know that, by genre conventions, there's always going to be a higher level beyond it unless the story ends immediately after, sort of like how, in Western fantasy serials, the super-powered artifact of +2 magic will soon been surpassed by the hyper-powered artifact of +3 magic if the series keeps going long enough or if limits aren't established early on.

I remember when I was about 8 or 9 years old, back when I first became a DBZ fan. I knew of Super Saiyan, but I didn't know of any forms beyond it. What's more, I only knew of Super Saiyan from Legacy of Goku— the TV dub had gotten to the Cell arc, but I missed all of it and I was only watching reruns of the Saiyan and Freeza sagas instead. I hadn't seen anything past Freeza except for a single midnight episode of the early Buu arc (well before I cared at all about Dragon Ball). I hadn't seen OG DB or DBGT, and I never looked up anything DBZ related on the Internet either. Yet I remember distinctly creating a "Super Super Saiyan", or a transformation that was basically a Super Saiyan going Super Saiyan. My 8-year-old self was validated when I discovered that was exactly what Super Saiyan 2 was (at least in the dub).
I also knew of Kaioken and how there were multipliers of it, and envisioned things like Super Saiyan Kaioken (again, before I ever learned Super Kaioken was a thing) and Kaioken x500.
I also remember creating a blue Super Saiyan that had a lot of crescent-like sparkles and was like a Super Saiyan with godly powers. And there was also a red Super Saiyan (not Super Kaioken) that was more powerful than a Super Saiyan 4. This was in 2003 to 2004, mind you, and I even still have that shitty fan comic I made of the latter. This Red Super Saiyan was edgier than Super Saiyan God and was used by a Tullece knock-off, but like the blue Super Saiyan, it was just a recolor of SS1.

Point is, we'd get edgy fan transformations regardless of if SS4 existed or not. They might not have fur and eyeliner and mullets as often as we've gotten, but it was inevitable.
Last edited by Yuli Ban on Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ss4 started trend of overdesigned fan fictiony forms

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:28 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm
especially considering in the Super anime, SS2 is actually the most prominent "classic" SS form.
Not at all. Despite the increased screentime Super Saiyan 2 got, Super Saiyan still and unfortunately was the prominent one.
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm
Goku repeatedly defaults back to it over SS1
Goku never reverts back to Super Saiyan 2. But he uses it against Trunks, Gohan, Zamasu, Goku Black, Kale and Caulifla.
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm
This is Vegeta's highest OG SS form achieved
And only used twice: against Goku and against Buu.
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm
Trunks perfected it and did whatever Super Saiyan Rage is with it
Assuming Super Saiyan Rage has any relation to Super Saiyan 2.
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 pm
Gohan, whenever he uses Super Saiyan, goes with this
Assumption for the most part. We are only sure he used Super Saiyan 2 against Piccolo. If we are considering Dragon Ball Z/Majin Buu saga, then he used just once against Kibito.
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Re: I believe Super Saiyan 4 started a trend of over-designed, fan-fictiony forms

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:06 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:26 pm
It’s not necessarily that recolors are bad. But after SIX of them in a row, it gets silly.
Yep, it's the law of diminishing marginal utility/returns at work.
Unfortunately.

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