Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

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ZeroNeonix
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ZeroNeonix » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:47 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:51 pm
Hmm...Vegeta probably could have flown back to Capsule Corp, get onto one of the space pods, and gtfo. Kold can't sense energy, and unlike Freeza he wouldn't have a hard on for Vegeta so unless Vegeta catches his eye, I doubt Kold would notice.
Vegeta is too prideful for that. He'll only run when he's thoroughly beaten, once he has used up all his strength. He'll fight or die.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:20 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:47 am
FoolsGil wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:51 pm
Hmm...Vegeta probably could have flown back to Capsule Corp, get onto one of the space pods, and gtfo. Kold can't sense energy, and unlike Freeza he wouldn't have a hard on for Vegeta so unless Vegeta catches his eye, I doubt Kold would notice.
Vegeta is too prideful for that. He'll only run when he's thoroughly beaten, once he has used up all his strength. He'll fight or die.
He can't be both too prideful to fight to his last breath, and not prideful enough so that he's a coward for this entire chapter until this moment. Where was his pride when humans, a Namekian, and a cat showed him up? But, for the sake of this argument, let's say that you're right...Why is he fighting for the Earth? Why now, suddenly he's incensed? Why now he wants to make a stand, on a planet he doesn't care about, to save a race he doesn't care about?

Frankly at this point, because we need Bulma to be attracted to Vegeta, he had to do something so Trunks will get born.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Regarder » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:56 pm

The issue fanfics set in this period have to solve is that Vegeta is caught between his Frieza saga characterization as a sneaky cheat who high tails it at the first sign of trouble, and his Cell saga characterization as a pride monster who defines being a Saiyan as testing himself in a good even fight. Those two Vegeta overlap because Saiyan pride was a part of his character from the beginning, but as it grew to become his character, any traits that pointed in the other direction disappeared, and at the transitional point you could haphazardly have him behave either way based on nothing if you don't think it through carefully.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ZeroNeonix » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:01 pm

FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:20 pm
He can't be both too prideful to fight to his last breath, and not prideful enough so that he's a coward for this entire chapter until this moment. Where was his pride when humans, a Namekian, and a cat showed him up? But, for the sake of this argument, let's say that you're right...Why is he fighting for the Earth? Why now, suddenly he's incensed? Why now he wants to make a stand, on a planet he doesn't care about, to save a race he doesn't care about?

Frankly at this point, because we need Bulma to be attracted to Vegeta, he had to do something so Trunks will get born.
It's not about defending anyone. He's willing to blow up the entire Earth and himself in his effort to kill Cold off for good. He doesn't care about them at all yet. He wants to go out fighting, in a display of Saiyan power. The only reason he escaped Earth on his first visit, if you recall, was because he could barely move. He physically could not fight any more. While running in that situation was humiliating, it would have been worse to die by some weak Earthling who just happened to be there at the right moment.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:01 pm
FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:20 pm
He can't be both too prideful to fight to his last breath, and not prideful enough so that he's a coward for this entire chapter until this moment. Where was his pride when humans, a Namekian, and a cat showed him up? But, for the sake of this argument, let's say that you're right...Why is he fighting for the Earth? Why now, suddenly he's incensed? Why now he wants to make a stand, on a planet he doesn't care about, to save a race he doesn't care about?

Frankly at this point, because we need Bulma to be attracted to Vegeta, he had to do something so Trunks will get born.
It's not about defending anyone. He's willing to blow up the entire Earth and himself in his effort to kill Cold off for good. He doesn't care about them at all yet. He wants to go out fighting, in a display of Saiyan power. The only reason he escaped Earth on his first visit, if you recall, was because he could barely move. He physically could not fight any more. While running in that situation was humiliating, it would have been worse to die by some weak Earthling who just happened to be there at the right moment.
You point out the first time he tried to escape, badly broken, better to run than die as his honor was already stained. And I point the second time he tried to get off planet. Namek. Freeza's second form terrified him, but Freeza wouldn't let him escape. Which is why I question why he doesn't do the same here. It seems that Vegeta has polarizing, contradictory examples of being both a prideful prince, and a clear coward.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:54 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 pm
You point out the first time he tried to escape, badly broken, better to run than die as his honor was already stained. And I point the second time he tried to get off planet. Namek. Freeza's second form terrified him, but Freeza wouldn't let him escape. Which is why I question why he doesn't do the same here. It seems that Vegeta has polarizing, contradictory examples of being both a prideful prince, and a clear coward.
While I'd agree the writing for Dragon Ball has some holes and inconsistencies in it, this isn't one of those things I see as a contradiction. If there's one person Vegeta would act cowardly around, it's the person who mercilessly murdered his entire race, including his entire family, keeping him as his royal pet. Judging from the way he burst into tears, begging Goku to finish Frieza off--something Vegeta never does--it's clear he had some very personal feelings towards Frieza. Even now, in Super, he's the only person who seems concerned that Frieza is still alive.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Brikikoz » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:40 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 pm
It seems that Vegeta has polarizing, contradictory examples of being both a prideful prince, and a clear coward.
He does, because Toriyama had just made the decision to keep him around instead of leaving him a dead villain.

Once Vegeta got resurrected, his personality had to change to be a regular with Toriyama's plotting.

Toriyama also tends to go back and forth a lot; possibly because he just forgets and goes back to stereotypes he remembers.

-Vegeta cries and begs for justice when killed by Freeza, but after resurrection he is the prideful stereotype who HAS to beat Kakkarot.
-Then he cries and decides to never fight ever again after Cell, but that's forgotten in Buu when he has to beat Kakkarot again.
-Then he admits Goku is number 1 and the series ends on that character development. Until 10 real-life years later, Toriyama rewrites the epilogue to have Vegeta once again obsessed with beating Kakkarot.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm

Brikikoz wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:40 am
FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 pm
It seems that Vegeta has polarizing, contradictory examples of being both a prideful prince, and a clear coward.
He does, because Toriyama had just made the decision to keep him around instead of leaving him a dead villain.

Once Vegeta got resurrected, his personality had to change to be a regular with Toriyama's plotting.

Toriyama also tends to go back and forth a lot; possibly because he just forgets and goes back to stereotypes he remembers.

-Vegeta cries and begs for justice when killed by Freeza, but after resurrection he is the prideful stereotype who HAS to beat Kakkarot.
-Then he cries and decides to never fight ever again after Cell, but that's forgotten in Buu when he has to beat Kakkarot again.
-Then he admits Goku is number 1 and the series ends on that character development. Until 10 real-life years later, Toriyama rewrites the epilogue to have Vegeta once again obsessed with beating Kakkarot.
The only one I have a problem with is that last one. The first two are justifiable since Vegeta is still carrying his Goku related baggage until the final fight with Majin Boo.

But then Toriyama added in that panel in the Kanzenban and Super is basically acting like Vegeta never had an incredibly important epiphany about Goku's character at the end of the series.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:20 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm
But then Toriyama added in that panel in the Kanzenban and Super is basically acting like Vegeta never had an incredibly important epiphany about Goku's character at the end of the series.
Bolded for emphasis since, while I can't really disagree with the Kanzenban panel when taken on it's own, I disagree in the case of Super. That's not what I got out of it at all, nor how I think they likely intended it to be taken.

The second episode of Super goes over the Vegeta situation fairly well - he still remembers his acknowledgment of Goku as '#1', but despite that admission, Goku keeps training. Goku keeps striving to get better and better, and Vegeta notices that and is unable to comprehend why at first. Then he realizes that it must mean Goku can tell there's still strength to be gained yet, and if Goku can reach new levels, then surely Vegeta can as well. This also means to him that, just because Goku is '#1' right now, it doesn't mean that will have to always be the case, and maybe Vegeta can catch up to or even surpass him still yet!

And then as the rest of Super plays out, Vegeta does indeed keep striving to get better than Kakarot, but it is nowhere near the same as it once was. I won't lie, I'm not a big fan of Vegeta in the older material. I find him grating far more often than I find him cool, and that usually comes down to that attitude. He screams and, frankly, whines constantly about how he should be the strongest just because, and then gets his butt handed to him as a result. This is especially true in regards to Goku, where Vegeta usually makes the WORST DECISIONS IMAGINABLE just for the chance of proving he's got the bigger energy level dick in comparison to Goku's. See Majin Vegeta. In Super however? Vegeta's got the drive to out do Goku, but it's in a much healthier, much less abrasive, and to me at least, much more enjoyable manner. He's not screaming constantly about how he should be the best just because he's the prince. He's truly wanting to get stronger just for the sake of getting stronger now, as well as a drive to protect his new home, something he once thought gave Goku more power.

If you're going to continue the story of Dragon Ball and have Vegeta involved, you can't leave him just resigned to the fact that he's never going to be able to keep up. Even GT eventually realized this and had to shoehorn in a way for him to suddenly catch up to Goku's latest gains at the end, because if you don't have an active Vegeta, then you just don't really have Vegeta at all. So rather than us just being told Vegeta's over his obsession with Goku in one way, we're instead shown that he's over it in an entirely different way, and it's a way that allows him to still be used, and that's the only real choice they had as far as I can see it.

Anyway, mini-rant over, and I don't mean all of this towards you directly. I've just seen this sentiment raised a number of times before, and it just feels like it's probably the wrong takeaway from what we're actually shown.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:21 pm

I also disagree with the notion that Vegeta's character development from the Buu saga was thrown out the window. Vegeta is not obsessed with beating Goku any more. He just wants to get stronger. His rivalry with Goku is still there, but it's healthier. When Frieza offers him a place back at his army for finishing Goku off, he even acknowledges that Goku is basically his carrot on a stick, saying something to the effect of, "That's tempting. Once upon a time, I might have taken you up on that offer. But as much as I hate to admit it, I need this clown. He drives me to keep improving."

He knows Goku will always be one step ahead of him, but that doesn't matter. He'll always keep trying, chasing after his rival to greater heights.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Brikikoz » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:47 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:20 pm

If you're going to continue the story of Dragon Ball and have Vegeta involved, you can't leave him just resigned to the fact that he's never going to be able to keep up. Even GT eventually realized this and had to shoehorn in a way for him to suddenly catch up to Goku's latest gains at the end, because if you don't have an active Vegeta, then you just don't really have Vegeta at all.
Exactly. Which is why I said above that Toriyama just resorts to the same simple concepts he introduced the characters with when he can't develop them.

Toriyama, in the end, isn't a very good writer. He's like George Lucas. Creative genius and bursting with amazing imagery and ideas...but can't really write character development. It's why he drops characters all the time after making them major players; after they fulfill their plot point, they are totally irrelevant and he forgets about them.

Even Goku doesn't really develop much over the entire series...which is kind of the point, since this is Dragonball, a fighting manga. It's tailored to be this way; drama and deep introspective moments are not priorities for the target audience who want to see cool fights.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:55 pm

While I prefer Goku to Vegeta's Vegeta's motivation and development is still in play. In the Buu saga when Vegeta admits Goku is number it's not that he no longer wants to surpass Goku just that now it's not his be all end all that he will do what ever takes to get. Vegeta goes from putting the planet at risk to fight Goku to choosing to let Goku train with Whis while he stays with his pregnant wife.

Surpassing Goku is just a hobby or a way to have fun in the post Buu era Vegeta where as pre Buu it was the end all be all goal.

Vegeta goes from always making an excuses on how he can catch Goku to the number 1 speech being his acceptance that Goku is stronger at this moment in time.

Compare Vegeta reacting to SSJ3 where he admits Goku is strongest to when he sees Goku during the 50% power up and the Cell fight. All he can think about is getting stronger and with Buu he wants Goku to win so he can go home.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:26 am

People get hung up on Vegeta's admission in the speech but miss the most important part: Vegeta understanding why Goku was always a step ahead of him and why his obsession was unhealthy. That was the important stepping stone in his development. At the end of the day, Vegeta is still a Saiyan!
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Brikikoz » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:28 pm

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:30 pm

Scared of attack of like 4-5 million Vegeta, while Cold had power way above 150 millions..why i even ask, PL in most specials are completely messed up.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Brikikoz » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 pm

coola wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:30 pm
Scared of attack of like 4-5 million Vegeta, while Cold had power way above 150 millions..why i even ask, PL in most specials are completely messed up.
Power Levels were totally meaningless halfway through Namek; Toriyama doesn't even bring them up post SSJ.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:50 am

Brikikoz wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 pm
coola wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:30 pm
Scared of attack of like 4-5 million Vegeta, while Cold had power way above 150 millions..why i even ask, PL in most specials are completely messed up.
Power Levels were totally meaningless halfway through Namek; Toriyama doesn't even bring them up post SSJ.
He didn't bring them up post second form Frieza.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Brikikoz » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:02 pm

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:37 pm

You don't even need power levels to know that 50% Freeza, much less Cold, was dozens of times stronger than Vegeta or Piccolo (thank you, Kaio-ken numbers). So yeah, this plan is complete bullshit and Goku should know ahead of time that Piccolo and Vegeta are useless.
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He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:42 pm

I thought this would end with Goku doing a Warp Kamehameha, like that old fan theory, that was popular among those who thought Freeza had actually powered up to a level far beyond Goku's, meaning Trunks and Goku in either timeline only managed to win due to catching him off-guard.

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