Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Marty Kirra » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:14 pm

I don't really post here too much, but I don't like promoting a character as something they're not or at least not intentionally written as. I think in this context, it's better to use new characters rather than "rebranding" a character to fit an identity. If I can be even a bit more honest, at least within the realm of Dragonball, I'm a bit wary of Toei/Toriyama handling a character who would probably require a tiny bit more nuance in the writing realm.

I understand that representation is important, and I absolutely would not be against the addition of a new character who identifies as something other than straight, but I also understand that Dragonball might not be the series to do it. An earlier post mentioned "how about we stop projecting our identity politics onto some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?" , and I think the interpretation I get from this is basically the point I'm trying to make. Nothing in Dragonball is really handled with nuance and care outside of the fighting. Romance in this series isn't really thought out and happens behind the scenes.

But hey, if it's handled well, I won't complain!

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kendamu » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:15 pm

Hi. There's not a ton of positive queer representation in mainstream media. If there is representation it's often subtext only. Because of this we tend to interpret a lot of characters in our own completely valid way.

If you're not into the idea of Piccolo being NB or Ace in the same context that an NB person or Ace person might see Piccolo, it's not your job to tell others not to interpret Piccolo that way. Also, it costs nothing to just be nice to people and not throw around homophobic dogwhistles such as "identity politics."

We're only "politics" because conservative politicians keep trying to legislate us out of existence. So, yeah, the reply that VegettoEX deemed inappropriate is in fact inappropriate and everyone defending that reply is also being inappropriate by rationalizing their homophobia.

We make up some of the most important roles in both official localization of DB and in fandom. You've enjoyed our content. You've had fun discussions with us. You've bought our products.

Stop being mean to us.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:56 pm

I think Piccolo helping to give some representation to Agender/Asexual folks is a nice idea! And if they found some genuinely organic ways to feature that in the series, I wouldn't mind. Of course, all this is just our own wishing and fantasizing; it's always going to be up to writers to write these characters how they see fit.

Talking about it with others is an enjoyable way to connect over the series we love on another level. It allows us to explore ideas and concepts that both express something about ourselves-- that frankly, society has made more of a big deal out of than we ever have-- and our love for DragonBall.

I absolutely love interpreting Kale and Caulifla as queer because the series itself leaves them so open to interpretation, and after 30 years of DragonBall existing, I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with having some representation. Especially considering they're two characters that are frankly so enjoyable.

I think some of the anger that some of you guys are finding here stems firmly from the fact that, whenever we bring this topic up, people snap back at us immediately telling us we're asking to compromise the integrity of the writing for pandering, when all we actually want is to suggest ideas we have with other fans. We'd never bang down the doors of the writers to make them adopt our ideas, nor would we stop enjoying the content if they ignored us.

But it's just nice, y'know? To imagine if these characters we grew up with-- this story-- could reflect a bit of our lives, and a bit more of the world at large.

And yes, we know. It's DRAGONBALL. It's unlikely, it's largely "unnecessary", and it's not really the point of the series.

Trust us, we know.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:10 am

What is most upsetting is this idea that we have to constantly justify our inclusion in media. We have to dig for representation as it is and yet here we are, outcasts among other outcasts who must nevertheless justify out existence to fellow geeks. Am I pulling the victim card? Yeah, I am, 'cause the negative reaction and constant hiding behind 'artistic elitism' (for lack of a better term) is exhausting. Maybe, just maybe, there is nothing controversial about suggesting queer interpretations in our favorite media, especially in a thread dedicated to 'what-ifs'.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:25 am

And does anyone really think it would make any sense to portray Piccolo as a heterosexual man who was into girls? That would be changing his established character way more than calling him asexual would be.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:45 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:25 am
And does anyone really think it would make any sense to portray Piccolo as a heterosexual man who was into girls? That would be changing his established character way more than calling him asexual would be.
Sense, maybe not. It would definitely cause a hubbub, but seeing as he's got quite a number of fans that find him appealing apparently- enough for Toriyama to notice - I wouldn't be surprised if they one day went down this road. Namekian/ demon physiology isn't super well defined and the anime has no problem portraying him eating so who knows. I mean, there's like 0.0001% chance of that happening but I wouldn't call it an absolute 0.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:31 am

Michsi wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:45 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:25 am
And does anyone really think it would make any sense to portray Piccolo as a heterosexual man who was into girls? That would be changing his established character way more than calling him asexual would be.
Sense, maybe not. It would definitely cause a hubbub, but seeing as he's got quite a number of fans that find him appealing apparently- enough for Toriyama to notice - I wouldn't be surprised if they one day went down this road. Namekian/ demon physiology isn't super well defined and the anime has no problem portraying him eating so who knows. I mean, there's like 0.0001% chance of that happening but I wouldn't call it an absolute 0.
You're joking right? They would never go down this road, Piccolo's fan base is barely in it for the sexual stuff anyways. He has never been sexualised like the a couple of the females in the series, why in the world would they choose to all of a sudden give him an actual sex?

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:40 am

KaiserNeko wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:56 pm
I think Piccolo helping to give some representation to Agender/Asexual folks is a nice idea! And if they found some genuinely organic ways to feature that in the series, I wouldn't mind. Of course, all this is just our own wishing and fantasizing; it's always going to be up to writers to write these characters how they see fit.

Talking about it with others is an enjoyable way to connect over the series we love on another level. It allows us to explore ideas and concepts that both express something about ourselves-- that frankly, society has made more of a big deal out of than we ever have-- and our love for DragonBall.

I absolutely love interpreting Kale and Caulifla as queer because the series itself leaves them so open to interpretation, and after 30 years of DragonBall existing, I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with having some representation. Especially considering they're two characters that are frankly so enjoyable.

I think some of the anger that some of you guys are finding here stems firmly from the fact that, whenever we bring this topic up, people snap back at us immediately telling us we're asking to compromise the integrity of the writing for pandering, when all we actually want is to suggest ideas we have with other fans. We'd never bang down the doors of the writers to make them adopt our ideas, nor would we stop enjoying the content if they ignored us.

But it's just nice, y'know? To imagine if these characters we grew up with-- this story-- could reflect a bit of our lives, and a bit more of the world at large.

And yes, we know. It's DRAGONBALL. It's unlikely, it's largely "unnecessary", and it's not really the point of the series.

Trust us, we know.
I agree with everything you said except for the Kale and Caulifla part. Out of all the characters I wouldn't be a fan of the idea of them being queer.

mostly because it seems so convenient that two Saiyan women show up and they are holding hands and just doing stereotypical things you'd see in a typical 'girls' show in Japan. I found it quite insulting.

i'd prefer to have two characters that aren't a blatant stereotype. Not to mention Toriyama stated Saiyan's are in small numbers due to the fact they don't experience romantic feelings. but I have no problem with other relevant male or female characters being portrayed as queer. It just feels like a lot of the reason why they'd do it for Kale and Caulifla is for pure sexualisation purposes, appealing to the 'male fantasy'.

idk i hope that made sense though.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 am

Kale and Caulifla appeal to women-loving women too. I identify with with Kale's shy nature, confidence issues, self-disgust and intense attraction to a more dominant partner. If men masturbate to that I don't mind, they're a cute couple. I do, too!
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Plague-Memories » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:30 am

I always assumed piccolo was more asexual than anything.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:27 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:31 am
Michsi wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:45 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:25 am
And does anyone really think it would make any sense to portray Piccolo as a heterosexual man who was into girls? That would be changing his established character way more than calling him asexual would be.
Sense, maybe not. It would definitely cause a hubbub, but seeing as he's got quite a number of fans that find him appealing apparently- enough for Toriyama to notice - I wouldn't be surprised if they one day went down this road. Namekian/ demon physiology isn't super well defined and the anime has no problem portraying him eating so who knows. I mean, there's like 0.0001% chance of that happening but I wouldn't call it an absolute 0.
You're joking right? They would never go down this road, Piccolo's fan base is barely in it for the sexual stuff anyways. He has never been sexualised like the a couple of the females in the series, why in the world would they choose to all of a sudden give him an actual sex?
All I said is that there are fans out there that are into him like that (I used go around searching for Dragon Ball fanart from japanese fansites in the pre-pixiv/twitter days and you wouldn't believe how many of those I came across) Sure he doesn't hold a candle to Vegeta and Goku in that regard, but as I mentioned, he's got enough for Toriyama to have noticed. This might give writers ideas.
As far as my comment on chances not being a strict 0% that's mostly because ever since the Mai/Trunks development I believe nothing is off limits.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am

Kendamu wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:15 pm
Hi. There's not a ton of positive queer representation in mainstream media. If there is representation it's often subtext only. Because of this we tend to interpret a lot of characters in our own completely valid way.

If you're not into the idea of Piccolo being NB or Ace in the same context that an NB person or Ace person might see Piccolo, it's not your job to tell others not to interpret Piccolo that way. Also, it costs nothing to just be nice to people and not throw around homophobic dogwhistles such as "identity politics."

We're only "politics" because conservative politicians keep trying to legislate us out of existence. So, yeah, the reply that VegettoEX deemed inappropriate is in fact inappropriate and everyone defending that reply is also being inappropriate by rationalizing their homophobia.

We make up some of the most important roles in both official localization of DB and in fandom. You've enjoyed our content. You've had fun discussions with us. You've bought our products.

Stop being mean to us.
You are free to interpret Piccolo however you like. If him being a plant alien in a strange world resonates with someone being nonbinary, then all the power to you. You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand? Should we go back and edit some of the characters to be black since they were so poorly represented 30 years ago?

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:04 am

The cool thing about fan art is that you can have any character kiss any other character you like. I think it would be nice for aces to have a character like them, though. Piccolo mentioning something like "Uh...sorry, I'm not into that" or even "Uh...sorry, I'm ace." would be nice representation for aces. I had a non-binary co-worker who was ace, I think they would have enjoyed having a cool character like them in media.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:04 am
The cool thing about fan art is that you can have any character kiss any other character you like. I think it would be nice for aces to have a character like them, though. Piccolo mentioning something like "Uh...sorry, I'm not into that" or even "Uh...sorry, I'm ace." would be nice representation for aces. I had a non-binary co-worker who was ace, I think they would have enjoyed having a cool character like them in media.

Representation is harmless. If we can convince someone to create the content we want we should try.
Isn't it implicit that Piccolo is asexual?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:34 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:04 am
The cool thing about fan art is that you can have any character kiss any other character you like. I think it would be nice for aces to have a character like them, though. Piccolo mentioning something like "Uh...sorry, I'm not into that" or even "Uh...sorry, I'm ace." would be nice representation for aces. I had a non-binary co-worker who was ace, I think they would have enjoyed having a cool character like them in media.

Representation is harmless. If we can convince someone to create the content we want we should try.
Isn't it implicit that Piccolo is asexual?
It was never out right stated that he is asexual, but he is often shown to view romantic relationships as a weird and irrational concept. The closest we came to something like this is in FighterZ when Bulma accuses him of reading her mind and finding images of her naked in the bath and all he does is shrug her concerns off as something irrelevant. It's Kuririn actually that interjects and says that as a Namekian why would he be interested in girls, but again the focus is on his Namkian heritage.

As far as official statements go, Toriyama once mentioned Namekians might be hermaphrodites, which is actually the opposite of genderless.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:39 am

He's from a race that has one sex and reproduces asexually. Does it need to be stated? Of course he's not attracted to women.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:42 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:04 am
The cool thing about fan art is that you can have any character kiss any other character you like. I think it would be nice for aces to have a character like them, though. Piccolo mentioning something like "Uh...sorry, I'm not into that" or even "Uh...sorry, I'm ace." would be nice representation for aces. I had a non-binary co-worker who was ace, I think they would have enjoyed having a cool character like them in media.

Representation is harmless. If we can convince someone to create the content we want we should try.
Isn't it implicit that Piccolo is asexual?
Implication is meant to leave room for interpretation so that people can actually say "WELL, THIS ISN'T REALLY QUEER!!!!11oneoneeveln!!!" Why should I have to read a character as queer? Cishets never have to do as much digging.

Fuck the naysayers: Piccolo is ace. Kale is bi as fuck. Caulifla is bi as fuck. Whis is queer. Freeza is queer. Majin Buu is queer. Mister Satan is bi as fuck. Panchy is queer and poly. Pu-erh is gay as fuck.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:39 am
He's from a race that has one sex and reproduces asexually. Does it need to be stated? Of course he's not attracted to women.
Well that's what I see here some people say, that they'd want a clear statement from the character himself. Whenever it's brought up it's attributed to his Namekian biology which isn't the same as being ace.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:42 am
Implication is meant to leave room for interpretation so that people can actually say "WELL, THIS ISN'T REALLY QUEER!!!!11oneoneeveln!!!" Why should I have to read a character as queer? Cishets never have to do as much digging.

Fuck the naysayers: Piccolo is ace. Kale is bi as fuck. Caulifla is bi as fuck. Whis is queer. Freeza is queer. Majin Buu is queer. Mister Satan is bi as fuck. Panchy is queer and poly. Pu-erh is gay as fuck.
It's not deep digging. It's putting two and two together.
Well that's what I see here some people say, that they'd want a clear statement from the character himself. Whenever it's brought up it's attributed to his Namekian biology which isn't the same as being ace.
Fair enough. I was wondering. I don't know enough about this nor did I know 'asexual' had been abbreviated as 'ace'. I get that it's not the same exact thing as what is we would refer to as asexual.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Sin » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:10 pm

One thing I can't understand with all of this is that a portion of the black community have already been projecting their identity onto Piccolo for decades now and nobody has ever had an issue with that, what is wrong with LGBT+ doing the same?

As a straight white male (cishet is the term I believe), I am struggling to understand how some users are so aggressively against this, is this a class based mindset? Or geographical maybe? It's so sad seeing users I have respected for years showing themselves up with outdated principles and a lack of empathy for their fellow fans. There is room to agree and debate that Piccolo shouldn't suddenly play up to his sexuality as it wouldn't really seem very Dragonball, but there is no way whatsoever people should be told whether or not they can project their identity onto a character or situation.

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