Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:12 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:53 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm
"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.
It's not a useless platitude. It may not seem like things are getting better when you're in the thick of things, but it should serve as a reminder that the struggle is worth it. Maybe some mean it as a way to take the wind out of people's sails, but not everything is meant in bad faith.

Do you think being transgender in the 50's would be preferable? Almost nothing ever occurs as fast as we want it, but people giving you encouragement, even clichés, should not be automatically disregarded as disingenuous.

Here's another cliché, but on that none the less holds true - almost nothing worth having in life comes easy.
This post is exactly what I just finished describing in the post you are quoting. Honey, this means nothing. You're trying to force modern experiences and past experiences into a competition just to belittle modern experiences. This is not a competition. This is a "Hey, shit sucked then and it still fucking sucks now" situation.
I'm asking in the kindest of ways, please stop telling me what I mean. I am NOT belittling anyone's experiences. All I'm saying it's not all for not.

And it should be noted that no one here knows what my experiences are, I simply don't put shit on front street.

Kunzait, I understand where you're coming from, but you make it sound like those are small things because in the concrete here and now it doesn't seem like much solace, but it is a big f'n deal.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Skar » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:42 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:08 pm
"I haven't experienced or seen it myself, therefore it must not be a thing or be that big of a deal!" is the root fallacy behind a LOT of the ridiculous, absurd naivete that's at the heart of some of the blind (and blatantly incorrect) assumptions about the realities of these problems that people often make. Related point: see also the "Just World Fallacy".

Also, speaking as someone who's lived their whole life just outside of NYC: try moving into the city sometime for awhile, then get back to me on your thoughts on this matter.
It's best not to assume a person's experience. I have a big family so I traveled to many big cities while visiting them including NYC, Chicago, and Phoenix. The second generation, their kids, have all experienced more tolerance than their parents. I also lived in Amman, Jordan where most of my extended family lives. Even that country is becoming more progressive and accepting of minorities group than at any point in its history. They recently had a gay bar open in the city which would've been unheard of a few years ago.

I'm not pretending the world is a beautiful place where no one suffers anymore or diminish anyone's experience. My grandparents fled Palestine in 1948 while everyone who didn't make it out of the village were massacred. My grandmother was only 10 and her sister, my great aunt, was raped and killed. When they moved to Jordan, they were treated as second class citizens. Palestinian are still suffering now but have more sympathy across the world and Jordan is stricter in equal rights and anti-discrimination laws. My point was that the world is improving although not at the pace we would like but it's getting better.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:55 pm

And at no point have I ever implied I believe that the world is more just than it is. I have issues the same as everyone else. My huge issue with a term like privilege is it implies some sort of charmed life. People get the impression that it's like the Eddie Murphy White Face SNL sketch. What it really means is as a straight white male, I have plenty of issues, the same as everyone else, it's simply that my race, gender, sexual orientation aren't amongst them. All that said, I think you assume WAY too much about me.

The world is messed up. People get ahead that shouldn't, and people get hurt that shouldn't. We haven't learned from the lessons of the past and seem to be moving towards some form of statism (likely fascism). It can feel overwhelming and of little comfort to hear that things get better, but they do. I know that from my own life. For a while, I was bullied mercilessly for no reason other than I was small and shy. I don't like talking about it here because this isn't a therapist couch and it's been nearly 20 years, but I downed a bottle of pills when I was younger because I was deeply depressed and teased horribly in high school, but thankfully I lived to see things get better.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:57 pm

Intention and effect are two different things. Even if someone were simply trying to state what may be factually true, it can still have the effect of belittling people and their experiences. It can also, simultaneously, have the effect of providing "encouragement" or "solace" as was stated. You can't separate the two. But even if a person isn't being disingenuous, people can still feel deeply insulted when they hear those words.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:07 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:57 pm
Intention and effect are two different things. Even if someone were simply trying to state what may be factually true, it can still have the effect of belittling people and their experiences. It can also, simultaneously, have the effect of providing "encouragement" or "solace" as was stated. You can't separate the two. But even if a person isn't being disingenuous, people can still feel deeply insulted when they hear those words.
I get that, but I don't see who it's helping to assume the worst. It's best to communicate those feelings assuming you believe the person saying them has good intentions. To your last point, I think it's best to communicate that than just lump someone in with the disingenuous people who do want to silence others. I can certainly understand why someone who has a lot of experience hearing those words from people with less than honorable intentions would get fed up with those words outright. And not to make this about me, but am I coming across to anyone as some alt-right dick who just wants to bury my head in the sand and not hear about the issues facing the LGBT+ community and wants to "get politics out of my fighting show"?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:24 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:55 pm
My huge issue with a term like privilege is it implies some sort of charmed life.
No it doesn't. In the context of race, it means that your being White affords you certain advantages in life that non-Whites do not have. White privilege does not mean that your life will not have any issues. It also does not mean that you will necessarily have access to all of the benefits of White privilege. White privilege simply means that the racial group known as "White" is granted special privileges in this society. What that might amount to for any one White individual is another story.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:28 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:24 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:55 pm
My huge issue with a term like privilege is it implies some sort of charmed life.
No it doesn't. In the context of race, it means that your being White affords you certain advantages in life that non-Whites do not have. White privilege does not mean that your life will not have any issues. It also does not mean that you will necessarily have access to all of the benefits of White privilege. White privilege simply means that the racial group known as "White" is granted special privileges in this society. What that might amount to for any one White individual is another story.
It IMPLES both. And it's not that I have "advantages", it's that I don't have unfair obstacles put in my path. It's why I don't like using that term. It makes it seem as though people are given stuff. It lumps in people who are in fact given stuff because of their connections (like Benioff and Weiss, apparently) and people who don't have their race held against them. Two vastly different situations and considering them the same thing is bad for clarity in ones thinking.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm

Re privilege: as a Hispanic-White trans woman I have more privilege over a black trans woman, for example. I'm a little bit less likely to be murdered simply because I'm white-passing. That's what we mean by being aware of one's privilege.
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I don't believe that most people are saying that things aren't bad now, just that they were even worse 20/30+ years ago.
It's a false equivalence and structures the discussion as a competition between two things that are both unacceptable. "X is more unacceptable than Y!" is without a doubt the most useless discussion to have because Y is without a doubt still unequivocally unacceptable. If I can re-purpose a phrase from Kyle Kulinski: "nobody shows up to a pep rally for a tie".

Pride events--three of which I participated in this year as part of my first year being openly queer--are all about remembering those who brought us to where we are (the Stonewall riot and the various leaders of the queer movement, most of whom were people of color), celebrating who we are now and acknowledging that we still have way, way, way far left to go.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:35 pm

To get back on topic, one possible idea could be a scene like this:

The Z-senshi and their friends and family are visiting Planet Sadala in Universe 6 and meeting the king. He is introduced to Goku and his wife Chi-chi, Vegeta and Bulma, Krillin and 18, etc. Then he asks Piccolo if he has a partner too, but Piccolo just says something like 'I'm not interested in people that way'.

Then, since this is Dragonball, space pirates attack and the Z-senshi and the Universe 6 Saiyans have to fight together to defeat them in an epic battle.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:37 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
I can re-purpose a phrase from Kyle Kulinski: "nobody shows up to a pep rally for a tie".
Well that's not strictly true. I have a friend who plays chess and one of the things he often brags about is how he once drew a game against a Grandmaster - not beating him, just a draw. He seems very proud of that.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:44 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:37 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
I can re-purpose a phrase from Kyle Kulinski: "nobody shows up to a pep rally for a tie".
Well that's not strictly true. I have a friend who plays chess and one of the things he often brags about is how he once drew a game against a Grandmaster - not beating him, just a draw. He seems very proud of that.
"Chess kills"

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:28 pm
And it's not that I have "advantages", it's that I don't have unfair obstacles put in my path. It's why I don't like using that term. It makes it seem as though people are given stuff. It lumps in people who are in fact given stuff because of their connections (like Benioff and Weiss, apparently) and people who don't have their race held against them. Two vastly different situations and considering them the same thing is bad for clarity in ones thinking.
I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make. The people being "given stuff" are getting it because they are White. Your race not being an obstacle is because you are White. How is that not a privilege? The advantage is that you are White.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:44 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:37 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
I can re-purpose a phrase from Kyle Kulinski: "nobody shows up to a pep rally for a tie".
Well that's not strictly true. I have a friend who plays chess and one of the things he often brags about is how he once drew a game against a Grandmaster - not beating him, just a draw. He seems very proud of that.
"Chess kills"

Image
I was just responding to the 'pep rally' analogy.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:59 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:49 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:28 pm
And it's not that I have "advantages", it's that I don't have unfair obstacles put in my path. It's why I don't like using that term. It makes it seem as though people are given stuff. It lumps in people who are in fact given stuff because of their connections (like Benioff and Weiss, apparently) and people who don't have their race held against them. Two vastly different situations and considering them the same thing is bad for clarity in ones thinking.
I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to make. The people being "given stuff" are getting it because they are White. Your race not being an obstacle is because you are White. How is that not a privilege?
Because unless I'm given an unfair advantage (the unearned) I'm not actually being given something like it's a favor, I'm simply not being shackled. My issue with the term is that it's a package deal. It's lumping in people getting the unearned with those that aren't having something unjustly held against them as though they are fundamentally similar. It takes the eye off the real injustice being done - the bigotry. It also makes it seem like I'm better off because someone else was discriminated against. No one benefits. Also, instead of making people more understanding and sensitive to the real issues, it comes off as a term designed to induce guilt.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Metalwario64 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:17 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:55 pm
And at no point have I ever implied I believe that the world is more just than it is. I have issues the same as everyone else. My huge issue with a term like privilege is it implies some sort of charmed life. People get the impression that it's like the Eddie Murphy White Face SNL sketch. What it really means is as a straight white male, I have plenty of issues, the same as everyone else, it's simply that my race, gender, sexual orientation aren't amongst them. All that said, I think you assume WAY too much about me.
Damn... I was seeing the talk of privilege earlier and though the same thing to myself, but you worded it more eloquently than I would have.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:27 pm

Must be nice being a part of the Lucky Sperm Club: "I don't see how my being a cishet white man is really a privilege"-tier.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:59 pm
Because unless I'm given an unfair advantage (the unearned) I'm not actually being given something like it's a favor, I'm simply not being shackled. My issue with the term is that it's a package deal. It's lumping in people getting the unearned with those that aren't having something unjustly held against them as though they are fundamentally similar.
The fundamental similarity is that both of those groups are White. That's the advantage. White privilege means people are getting unearned advantages because of their race and also means that people do not have their race unjustly held against them because of their race. The Whiteness is what ties the two together. Your not being shackled is because of your race.
It also makes it seem like I'm better off because someone else was discriminated against.
That's exactly how it works. White privilege only exists as long as non-Whites are unprivileged or disadvantaged.

It is also very important to note in these topics the difference between the individual and social group. White privilege refers first and foremost to the racial group, not to the individual who may identify with said group. It's not something that necessarily defines any one person or persons. "Whiteness" in this sense transcends the individual.
Also, instead of making people more understanding and sensitive to the real issues, it comes off as a term designed to induce guilt.
I think that the tendency for people to claim that they are being made to feel guilty has less to do with the terminology and more to do with many people having a critical lack of knowledge and understanding of social privilege as a concept and social science overall. It's not something that the average person can just pick up without any time or study. That's not to say that "privilege" as a term can't be problematic. Just that it doesn't mean what many people may initially think it means. Not to assume anything about you specifically.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:01 am

I've been following this thread but not contributing very much. However, the debate on whether or not this is a better time in history to be LGBT+ did pique my interest enough to weigh in. I do feel it's been a little too dismissively "throw the baby out with the bathwater." I can only speak from my own experience (and quite frankly, even so I'm going to be purposely holding back quite a bit), but I began openly wearing women's clothes IN MISSISSIPPI in 2006. Remember, this is a state that is very well-documented in regards to fighting back hard (to make the biggest understatement of the century) against what it considers traditional values. Yet in the years I lived there and did that, the most I ever suffered was a few crude remarks and stares. I was able to stay employed, and I was even allowed to wear a skirt to my job, and the majority of customers I encountered received me positively. In the present, while I'm not in Mississippi, I am still in the south, and I have a human resources department at my job that will almost literally bend over backwards to accommodate anyone's journey of gender identity.

I know some of the people involved in this thread, and I know something of the struggles they've faced based on what they've told me. So I in no way want to come across as though I'm either bragging about my own good fortune or assuming that my own experiences are telling of the wider or all-encompassing picture. I only, only, ONLY do so in order to make you understand why I thank my lucky stars on a regular basis that I'm alive at the point in time I am now. Had I grown up in Mississippi at the same time a black man couldn't drink from the same fucking water fountain as a white man, someone like me would probably never have made it out alive. I certainly wouldn't have a job. I probably wouldn't have a family. Well, actually, the jury's still kind of out on that last one. And, yes, I know, I KNOW all of the things I just listed are either a reality or a legitimate fear for tons of people. They're a legitimate fear for ME. Every time I step out of the house, and I'm not beaten, bullied, fired, harassed, or killed, it makes me wonder if I'm that much closer to the other shoe dropping because my "lucky streak" can't hold out forever, can it? But I do feel my odds are infinitely greater nowadays (despite the previously-mentioned-in-this-thread Trump revolution that does make me fear going back to Mississippi now more than I ever did 10 years ago) than they would have been at almost any other point in this nation's past.

I say all of this to posit that I don't believe most of those in this thread saying "it's better now than it was before" are simply spouting platitudes or dismissing the real life and death struggles this community still faces to this day. There is truth to the notion that saying such a thing does little good for those who aren't fortunate enough to land under the safety of that particular umbrella of generalized good fortune and slow-moving progressive change. And whatever change is there is not enough to warrant a, "You're not oppressed anymore. We're in the most tolerant time ever! Buck up! Everything's going to be great!" Good Lord, do we have a long way to go, and I see evidence of that every single day of my life. And I certainly understand why, because of that, the very utterance of such a phrase would be bristling to many. But I must recognize that there is also plenty of truth to those who point out the undeniable progress that has been made, and for that I can't help but be grateful, even as I continue to struggle for a future where that needle has moved anywhere close to where it should be. I won't settle for where we are now, and neither should anyone else, but I can still take some relief in it.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:25 am

The issue that has made me ever so clearly angry has nothing to really do with whether things are 'better' or not. Yeah, technically, my chances of being left to bleed out after a random asshole cut off my penis and balls in a shopping mall bathroom is a little lower now than it would have been in 1953...but that's besides the point. That sweep-aside of the present is entirely inappropriate to do in the first place. It's...not going to help any of us. 'Brightsiding' this stuff doesn't help me not get constantly harassed by the public, my name constantly ridiculed as "not being my name" by customers or getting called slurs. It doesn't stop me from having to dive back into the closet do I don't get murdered by people if I choose to visit my friends who still live in conservative states. I'm still having to 'strategically transition' and that's pretty d*ng hard on my mental health.

Fuck, let me talk about something happy for once: going out with my purse and matte on is a lot of fun. Technically, my purse bothers my back since I'm not used to the placement of extra weight, but d*ng...that just gets a girl in the zone. I need to get around to looking for some nice leggings I can wear. I really love the compression of tight pants on my legs. It's so...skin-tight. :p I need to stop depression eating so I can comfortably fit into those $30 jeans I bought from Maurice's. Okay, so, like, why the h*ck have we girls not gotten better pockets on our clothes yet? Julie likes putting her hands in her pockets! Ugh.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:36 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:25 am
The issue that has made me ever so clearly angry has nothing to really do with whether things are 'better' or not. Yeah, technically, my chances of being left to bleed out after a random asshole cut off my penis and balls in a shopping mall bathroom is a little lower now than it would have been in 1953...but that's besides the point. That sweep-aside of the present is entirely inappropriate to do in the first place. It's...not going to help any of us. 'Brightsiding' this stuff doesn't help me not get constantly harassed by the public, my name constantly ridiculed as "not being my name" by customers or getting called slurs. It doesn't stop me from having to dive back into the closet do I don't get murdered by people if I choose to visit my friends who still live in conservative states. I'm still having to 'strategically transition' and that's pretty d*ng hard on my mental health.
And I certainly wouldn't say that phrase to you because I know you don't care for it, and as your friend I respect your boundaries. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm just saying, as someone else who can tick a lot of the same boxes you just listed in your post, I DO find it extremely helpful to my mental health to recognize this. You don't, and I certainly understand why. And I'm not going to push it farther than that. We don't have to speak with one voice. I only wish to add my voice to assert I don't necessarily think those espousing such a view are doing so out of ill-will or ignorance. I think it's a valid point, just as your refutation of it is.
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