Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

[Hugo Boss]

That’s totally your opinion though. You can’t claim that Jiren is stronger than X level from Namek Arc, since he fought weakened versions of Goku, Vegeta and Freeza as well. For all intents or purposes his level of drain could be that dramatic.

Since the claim here is that Goku & Vegeta's bases are a minor degree greater than their Boo arc selves, I totally can. Beerus was puzzled as to how Goku could have beaten Freeza, a Namek arc level fighter. Goku & Vegeta are claimed to only be a bit greater than their base selves from Beerus' estimate so that means weakened versions of these characters are Namek level. Additionally, Freeza at the end of the ToP wasn't nearly as drained as Goku & Vegeta. Freeza still had the power to launch a massive Ki blast at Jiren and then transform into his golden form afterwards, that's a rather big implication that he has a good amount of Ki left.

If Freeza had a good amount of ki left he would try to fight in his golden form. He used this form just for a quick assault, which means he was dramatically drained as well, as pretty much everyone post Ultra Instinct debut.

On top of that, Jiren could have easily knocked out Goku as he did to Vegeta. Goku just had lucky to not be chosen first. The best he could do was trying to hold a tired Jiren and he would have failed if Freeza didn’t charge into their position.

So, I don’t see how exactly you can made a valid comparison with characters at that level of drain, it’s a futile and excessively pedantic effort.

[theherodjl]

If Freeza had a good amount of ki left he would try to fight in his golden form. He used this form just for a quick assault, which means he was dramatically drained as well, as pretty much everyone post Ultra Instinct debut.

On top of that, Jiren could have easily knocked out Goku as he did to Vegeta. Goku just had lucky to not be chosen first. The best he could do was trying to hold a tired Jiren and he would have failed if Freeza didn’t charge into their position.

So, I don’t see how exactly you can made a valid comparison with characters at that level of drain, it’s a futile and excessively pedantic effort.

Freeza didn't fight as long & hard as Goku & Vegeta. In fact, Freeza activating his golden form(while Goku & Vegeta could not even turn on SSJ) is proof that Freeza still had a good amount of Ki. The assault on Jiren was to ensure U7's victory as planned by Freeza & 17 because it was a strategic decision. Freeza said he was doing it to be restored back to life, not because he was out of strength.

And this feat is incredible for a Base Saiyan, that's the point. No mere base Saiyan from DBZ(save for maybe Vegetto/Gogeta) could accomplish this.

There's enough evidence here to form a rough conclusion but a conclusion nonetheless.

[Koitsukai]

In the anime, Freeza was destroyed after facing Hakaishin Toppo and then Jiren put him down, but I can't remember what manga Freeza went through? did he get beat up by Jiren? IIRC he didn't suffer as his anime counterpart

[SSJgogeto]

1. That means Jiren drops all the way down in power to somewhere around DBZ's Namek arc if DBS Goku & Vegeta's bases aren't much higher than their DBZ selves. I know that characters lose considerable strength when they're tired...but there's no way Jiren is that weakened. Jiren upheaved a massive blast from Post-ROF Freeza's final form so he's still in the general strength of being far stronger than the majority of Z characters.
2. Not just "very strong". Any Base Saiyan holding onto a ROF Final Form Freeza-level opponent is stronger than the SSJs of old.

It's difficult to reach any sort of consensus on this issue. Here's what I think:

1 - IMO Jiren's strength was fluctuating in the last fight.
2 - I'm from the team "Goku in ROF was using 'Saiyan Beyond God'", so I can't agree with you in this

[Hugo Boss]

And this feat is incredible for a Base Saiyan, that's the point. No mere base Saiyan from DBZ(save for maybe Vegetto/Gogeta) could accomplish this.

There's enough evidence here to form a rough conclusion but a conclusion nonetheless.

Accomplish what? Goku didn’t accomplish nothing.

[theherodjl]

It's difficult to reach any sort of consensus on this issue. Here's what I think:

1 - IMO Jiren's strength was fluctuating in the last fight.
2 - I'm from the team "Goku in ROF was using 'Saiyan Beyond God'", so I can't agree with you in this

1. Hardly. Jiren was narrowly fighting on par against Goku & Vegeta's team-up for most of the fight and then boosted his power a little bit upon becoming enraged. His power was pretty consistent.
2. Considering that Saiyans can generally access a substantial degree of their transformation's power in their base forms, there's little reason to believe that ToP Base Goku & Vegeta are significantly weaker than "Saiyan Beyond God" because the state is merely using God power in their base forms. They can do that whenever they want.

[theherodjl]

Accomplish what? Goku didn’t accomplish nothing.

Preventing himself from being thrown off and then holding Jiren in place is an accomplishment.

[p-hyvo]

Yeah, they definitely are by a long shot.
Talking about the anime, they may have surpassed anyone in z in base by the start of the tournament of power.

In the manga, they are far from that instead. They are 20 times stronger than in the buu saga at best , because the manga scaling is really different from the anime's

[Hulk10]

Yeah, they definitely are by a long shot.
Talking about the anime, they may have surpassed anyone in z in base by the start of the tournament of power.

In the manga, they are far from that instead. They are 20 times stronger than in the buu saga at best , because the manga scaling is really different from the anime's

How different?

[p-hyvo]

Yeah, they definitely are by a long shot.
Talking about the anime, they may have surpassed anyone in z in base by the start of the tournament of power.

In the manga, they are far from that instead. They are 20 times stronger than in the buu saga at best , because the manga scaling is really different from the anime's

How different?

Really a lot.
In the anime, goku has absorbed the god in base.
In the manga he hasn't.

In the anime , zenkai still works.
In the manga, zenkai aren't a thing anymore.

In the anime, everything points to the fact that God's multiplier has changed since battle of God's.
In the manga, nothing does and god is still another realm of power if compared to normal ssj forms

In the anime, black goku only has rosè and it is a x50 on his base.
In the manga, black goku has ssj and rosè and rosè has the same multiplier of ssb

The anime has a clear scaling without errors, the manga (in the first part) has plenty due to toyotaro's ignorance when it comes to power scaling
(ssj goku doing better than ssb vegeta against hit, ssj vegeta beating ssj black goku up even if base black goku > goku ssj3 and vegeta should be=goku because nothing says he isn't and it is stupid to think he's that stronger than him)

Anime future trunks and zamasu are both low ssb tier in their saga, in the manga they both are ssj3/low ssj3 tier

In the anime, ui goku is stronger than jiren, and jiren has his sfp state.
In the manga, jiren adapts and has the edge on ui goku and jiren doesn't have his sfp state.

In the anime, broly is much stronger than jiren. In the manga, belly is just stronger but not by that much.

[Hulk10]

Yeah, they definitely are by a long shot.
Talking about the anime, they may have surpassed anyone in z in base by the start of the tournament of power.

In the manga, they are far from that instead. They are 20 times stronger than in the buu saga at best , because the manga scaling is really different from the anime's

How different?

Really a lot.
In the anime, goku has absorbed the god in base.
In the manga he hasn't.

In the anime , zenkai still works.
In the manga, zenkai aren't a thing anymore.

In the anime, everything points to the fact that God's multiplier has changed since battle of God's.
In the manga, nothing does and god is still another realm of power if compared to normal ssj forms

In the anime, black goku only has rosè and it is a x50 on his base.
In the manga, black goku has ssj and rosè and rosè has the same multiplier of ssb

The anime has a clear scaling without errors, the manga (in the first part) has plenty due to toyotaro's ignorance when it comes to power scaling
(ssj goku doing better than ssb vegeta against hit, ssj vegeta beating ssj black goku up even if base black goku > goku ssj3 and vegeta should be=goku because nothing says he isn't and it is stupid to think he's that stronger than him)

Anime future trunks and zamasu are both low ssb tier in their saga, in the manga they both are ssj3/low ssj3 tier

In the anime, ui goku is stronger than jiren, and jiren has his sfp state.
In the manga, jiren adapts and has the edge on ui goku and jiren doesn't have his sfp state.

In the anime, broly is much stronger than jiren. In the manga, belly is just stronger but not by that much.

I see. I doubt though that the manga no longer includes Zenkais.

[p-hyvo]

How different?

Really a lot.
In the anime, goku has absorbed the god in base.
In the manga he hasn't.

In the anime , zenkai still works.
In the manga, zenkai aren't a thing anymore.

In the anime, everything points to the fact that God's multiplier has changed since battle of God's.
In the manga, nothing does and god is still another realm of power if compared to normal ssj forms

In the anime, black goku only has rosè and it is a x50 on his base.
In the manga, black goku has ssj and rosè and rosè has the same multiplier of ssb

The anime has a clear scaling without errors, the manga (in the first part) has plenty due to toyotaro's ignorance when it comes to power scaling
(ssj goku doing better than ssb vegeta against hit, ssj vegeta beating ssj black goku up even if base black goku > goku ssj3 and vegeta should be=goku because nothing says he isn't and it is stupid to think he's that stronger than him)

Anime future trunks and zamasu are both low ssb tier in their saga, in the manga they both are ssj3/low ssj3 tier

In the anime, ui goku is stronger than jiren, and jiren has his sfp state.
In the manga, jiren adapts and has the edge on ui goku and jiren doesn't have his sfp state.

In the anime, broly is much stronger than jiren. In the manga, belly is just stronger but not by that much.

I see. I doubt though that the manga no longer includes Zenkais.

Narratively speaking, zenkai shouldn't be a thing anymore.
Whis or someone stated such a thing, and zenkais were never implied to be a thing,from that point on (excluding toyotaro's bad writing that confuses a lot), while In the anime we have literal proofs of zenkai being still a thing (even in the anime Whis made the same statement, but later facts directly contraddicted him so it is invalid)

Oh yeah, to not forget that ssb is god x50 in the anime, and god x2/x9 in the manga

Merged zamasu (halo) being only twice as strong as a ssb in the anime, while in the manga he is several times stronger (probably 10)

If I recall other differences, I'll write em here

[Hulk10]

Really a lot.
In the anime, goku has absorbed the god in base.
In the manga he hasn't.

In the anime , zenkai still works.
In the manga, zenkai aren't a thing anymore.

In the anime, everything points to the fact that God's multiplier has changed since battle of God's.
In the manga, nothing does and god is still another realm of power if compared to normal ssj forms

In the anime, black goku only has rosè and it is a x50 on his base.
In the manga, black goku has ssj and rosè and rosè has the same multiplier of ssb

The anime has a clear scaling without errors, the manga (in the first part) has plenty due to toyotaro's ignorance when it comes to power scaling
(ssj goku doing better than ssb vegeta against hit, ssj vegeta beating ssj black goku up even if base black goku > goku ssj3 and vegeta should be=goku because nothing says he isn't and it is stupid to think he's that stronger than him)

Anime future trunks and zamasu are both low ssb tier in their saga, in the manga they both are ssj3/low ssj3 tier

In the anime, ui goku is stronger than jiren, and jiren has his sfp state.
In the manga, jiren adapts and has the edge on ui goku and jiren doesn't have his sfp state.

In the anime, broly is much stronger than jiren. In the manga, belly is just stronger but not by that much.

I see. I doubt though that the manga no longer includes Zenkais.

Narratively speaking, zenkai shouldn't be a thing anymore.
Whis or someone stated such a thing, and zenkais were never implied to be a thing,from that point on (excluding toyotaro's bad writing that confuses a lot), while In the anime we have literal proofs of zenkai being still a thing (even in the anime Whis made the same statement, but later facts directly contraddicted him so it is invalid)

Oh yeah, to not forget that ssb is god x50 in the anime, and god x2/x9 in the manga

Merged zamasu (halo) being only twice as strong as a ssb in the anime, while in the manga he is several times stronger (probably 10)

If I recall other differences, I'll write em here

Why not? They are an inherent part of Saiyan biology? I don't recall Whis ever saying anything about the Zenkais in the anime. Far more likely is that the Zenkais are no longer noticable.

[p-hyvo]

I see. I doubt though that the manga no longer includes Zenkais.

Narratively speaking, zenkai shouldn't be a thing anymore.
Whis or someone stated such a thing, and zenkais were never implied to be a thing,from that point on (excluding toyotaro's bad writing that confuses a lot), while In the anime we have literal proofs of zenkai being still a thing (even in the anime Whis made the same statement, but later facts directly contraddicted him so it is invalid)

Oh yeah, to not forget that ssb is god x50 in the anime, and god x2/x9 in the manga

Merged zamasu (halo) being only twice as strong as a ssb in the anime, while in the manga he is several times stronger (probably 10)

If I recall other differences, I'll write em here

Why not? They are an inherent part of Saiyan biology? I don't recall Whis ever saying anything about the Zenkais in the anime. Far more likely is that the Zenkais are no longer noticable.

Whis once said that goku and vegeta's base power was at its peak and they couldn't hope to get a lot stronger in base.
Nothing contraddicts that in the manga, while in the anime both goku hand vegeta gets gigantic boosts between a saga and the other /gigantic and we'll noticeable zenkais

[Hulk10]

Narratively speaking, zenkai shouldn't be a thing anymore.
Whis or someone stated such a thing, and zenkais were never implied to be a thing,from that point on (excluding toyotaro's bad writing that confuses a lot), while In the anime we have literal proofs of zenkai being still a thing (even in the anime Whis made the same statement, but later facts directly contraddicted him so it is invalid)

Oh yeah, to not forget that ssb is god x50 in the anime, and god x2/x9 in the manga

Merged zamasu (halo) being only twice as strong as a ssb in the anime, while in the manga he is several times stronger (probably 10)

If I recall other differences, I'll write em here

Why not? They are an inherent part of Saiyan biology? I don't recall Whis ever saying anything about the Zenkais in the anime. Far more likely is that the Zenkais are no longer noticable.

Whis once said that goku and vegeta's base power was at its peak and they couldn't hope to get a lot stronger in base.
Nothing contraddicts that in the manga, while in the anime both goku hand vegeta gets gigantic boosts between a saga and the other /gigantic and we'll noticeable zenkais

Ok so its just in the manga. But I thought that Saiyans have no limits? Sounds like the manga doesn't agree.

[p-hyvo]

Why not? They are an inherent part of Saiyan biology? I don't recall Whis ever saying anything about the Zenkais in the anime. Far more likely is that the Zenkais are no longer noticable.

Whis once said that goku and vegeta's base power was at its peak and they couldn't hope to get a lot stronger in base.
Nothing contraddicts that in the manga, while in the anime both goku hand vegeta gets gigantic boosts between a saga and the other /gigantic and we'll noticeable zenkais

Ok so its just in the manga. But I thought that Saiyans have no limits? Sounds like the manga doesn't agree.

Infact, in the anime they have no limits. Their base power always grows.
In the manga, however, seems like toyotaro shifted more into a tier system, in wich transormations determine a certain tier of power and the base power never changes for goku and vegeta, so the only way for the to become stronger is to unlock some new forms.
Maybe, toei and toyotaro just interpreted the "saiyan has no limits" thing in 2 ways, one which ever-growing strength and the other means no limits to how many transformations they can unlock.

Whis said that line in the anime about base power being at its peak too, I think in was during the black goku arc. Anyway, that is made invalid by the obvious zenkai shown after that statement was made and, of course, the "saiyans has no limits"thing said by vegeta

[Hulk10]

Whis once said that goku and vegeta's base power was at its peak and they couldn't hope to get a lot stronger in base.
Nothing contraddicts that in the manga, while in the anime both goku hand vegeta gets gigantic boosts between a saga and the other /gigantic and we'll noticeable zenkais

Ok so its just in the manga. But I thought that Saiyans have no limits? Sounds like the manga doesn't agree.

Infact, in the anime they have no limits. Their base power always grows.
In the manga, however, seems like toyotaro shifted more into a tier system, in wich transormations determine a certain tier of power and the base power never changes for goku and vegeta, so the only way for the to become stronger is to unlock some new forms.
Maybe, toei and toyotaro just interpreted the "saiyan has no limits" thing in 2 ways, one which ever-growing strength and the other means no limits to how many transformations they can unlock.

Whis said that line in the anime about base power being at its peak too, I think in was during the black goku arc. Anyway, that is made invalid by the obvious zenkai shown after that statement was made and, of course, the "saiyans has no limits"thing said by vegeta

Yeah that's pretty obvious that they don't have any limits in the anime and I like the anime better, as there are different voices.

[SSJgogeto]

1. Hardly. Jiren was narrowly fighting on par against Goku & Vegeta's team-up for most of the fight and then boosted his power a little bit upon becoming enraged. His power was pretty consistent.
2. Considering that Saiyans can generally access a substantial degree of their transformation's power in their base forms, there's little reason to believe that ToP Base Goku & Vegeta are significantly weaker than "Saiyan Beyond God" because the state is merely using God power in their base forms. They can do that whenever they want.

1 - I'm talking about the last part of the fight. You know, after UI Goku X Jiren.
2 - I believe that they weaker because of things like the fights between Goku and Trunks, Vegeta and Trunks or Goku and Great Saiyaman.

[Hugo Boss]

Accomplish what? Goku didn’t accomplish nothing.

Preventing himself from being thrown off and then holding Jiren in place is an accomplishment.

Goku only lasted a little bit more because Jiren felt like knocking Vegeta out first and Freeza took his attention later. If Freeza didn’t continue his attacks Goku would be the next to fall. Without those circumstances, Goku and Vegeta are the same.