Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

DBSuper manga has been consistently burying this notion that battle power always wins fights that I don’t understand why some people still insist on it.

[p-hyvo]

DBSuper manga has been consistently burying this notion that battle power always wins fights that I don’t understand why some people still insist on it.

That's true. In the manga is said that if you have an higher power level you can counter/be immune to haxes

[Zamasu55]

In Toriyama's canon, fusion is more capable than anything the individuals can do. Majin Buu would of easily been dispatched had they used fusion. However, Goku and Vegeta didn't want to use it because it wouldn't be a challenge. A Genki Dama with the energy of the entire earth and some didn't compare to fusion in Toriyama's authoritative story

And Genki Trunks doing better than Vegetto is TOEI filler. The manga was in line with Toriyama's views about fusion. Having Vegetto completely dominate Zamasu. We also had Gogeta used as the final Trump against Broly whom Goku and Vegeta had no chance against. Genki Dama wasn't thought of but fusion against a powerhouse was. Fusions are used for opponents WAY out of Goku's league, not Genki dama's.

BTW Freeza survived a Genki dama with the power of Namek backing it, lol.

There's no such thing. The DBS Anime counts more than the manga, sorry.

[Miracles]

In Toriyama's canon, fusion is more capable than anything the individuals can do. Majin Buu would of easily been dispatched had they used fusion. However, Goku and Vegeta didn't want to use it because it wouldn't be a challenge. A Genki Dama with the energy of the entire earth and some didn't compare to fusion in Toriyama's authoritative story

And Genki Trunks doing better than Vegetto is TOEI filler. The manga was in line with Toriyama's views about fusion. Having Vegetto completely dominate Zamasu. We also had Gogeta used as the final Trump against Broly whom Goku and Vegeta had no chance against. Genki Dama wasn't thought of but fusion against a powerhouse was. Fusions are used for opponents WAY out of Goku's league, not Genki dama's.

BTW Freeza survived a Genki dama with the power of Namek backing it, lol.

There's no such thing. The DBS Anime counts more than the manga, sorry.

That's headcanon. Shueisha officially has only the manga and movies as canonical sequels to Toriyama's DB manga.

Edit: It doesn't matter anyway. As that is not a good example of a Genki Dama outdoing fusion.
Trunks attacks was "like" a Genki but not one. We simply have no explanation on it's properties.

[ZombieVito]

In Toriyama's canon, fusion is more capable than anything the individuals can do. Majin Buu would of easily been dispatched had they used fusion. However, Goku and Vegeta didn't want to use it because it wouldn't be a challenge. A Genki Dama with the energy of the entire earth and some didn't compare to fusion in Toriyama's authoritative story

And Genki Trunks doing better than Vegetto is TOEI filler. The manga was in line with Toriyama's views about fusion. Having Vegetto completely dominate Zamasu. We also had Gogeta used as the final Trump against Broly whom Goku and Vegeta had no chance against. Genki Dama wasn't thought of but fusion against a powerhouse was. Fusions are used for opponents WAY out of Goku's league, not Genki dama's.

BTW Freeza survived a Genki dama with the power of Namek backing it, lol.

There's no such thing. The DBS Anime counts more than the manga, sorry.

That's headcanon. Shueisha officially has only the manga and movies as canonical sequels to Toriyama's DB manga.

Edit: It doesn't matter anyway. As that is not a good example of a Genki Dama outdoing fusion.
Trunks attacks was "like" a Genki but not one. We simply have no explanation on it's properties.

The anime was said to be the main product so he's right.

[Hugo Boss]

DBSuper manga has been consistently burying this notion that battle power always wins fights that I don’t understand why some people still insist on it.

That's true. In the manga is said that if you have an higher power level you can counter/be immune to haxes

Tell that to Moro.

[Hulk10]

I'm rather irritated that the anime shows that Saiyans have no internal limits but the manga claims otherwise............

[Block88]

Both manga and anime are equally canon trying to argue which is more is redundant

[Dragon Wukong]

I'm rather irritated that the anime shows that Saiyans have no internal limits but the manga claims otherwise............

The manga doesn't claim otherwise, it just notes that the "Get hurt -> Recover -> ??? -> Profit" way of zenkai boosts isn't infinite. At some point the only way to get stronger is via training. Which makes sense, otherwise there'd be no reason to not just constantly have someone beat them to near death and recover to get stronger, and it writes out the possibility for future sudden bullcrap turn-around power-ups.

[Hulk10]

I'm rather irritated that the anime shows that Saiyans have no internal limits but the manga claims otherwise............

The manga doesn't claim otherwise, it just notes that the "Get hurt -> Recover -> ??? -> Profit" way of zenkai boosts isn't infinite. At some point the only way to get stronger is via training. Which makes sense, otherwise there'd be no reason to not just constantly have someone beat them to near death and recover to get stronger, and it writes out the possibility for future sudden bullcrap turn-around power-ups.

Ah. So Whis said that without training or fighting Goku and Vegeta couldn't get any stronger in their base forms?

[Dragon Wukong]

I'm rather irritated that the anime shows that Saiyans have no internal limits but the manga claims otherwise............

The manga doesn't claim otherwise, it just notes that the "Get hurt -> Recover -> ??? -> Profit" way of zenkai boosts isn't infinite. At some point the only way to get stronger is via training. Which makes sense, otherwise there'd be no reason to not just constantly have someone beat them to near death and recover to get stronger, and it writes out the possibility for future sudden bullcrap turn-around power-ups.

Ah. So Whis said that without training or fighting Goku and Vegeta couldn't get any stronger in their base forms?

Well the zenkai thing is stated in the Goku Black arc by Trunks or something. As far as training itself goes, the U6 tournament arc seems to hint that their base forms are as strong as they'll ever get, as Vegeta notes that training in the HTC for 3 years won't actually make them stronger, but they continue training to avoid getting weaker and to achieve/balance out newer forms and get new techniques, i.e. Ultra Instinct and SSB. Something else may contradict it, but I don't think their base forms are actually going to get any stronger, but they're still limitless in power via the transformations they can achieve for greater heights.

Whis hammering in the basics for training is him trying to get Ultra Instinct through to Goku and Vegeta.

[Hulk10]

The manga doesn't claim otherwise, it just notes that the "Get hurt -> Recover -> ??? -> Profit" way of zenkai boosts isn't infinite. At some point the only way to get stronger is via training. Which makes sense, otherwise there'd be no reason to not just constantly have someone beat them to near death and recover to get stronger, and it writes out the possibility for future sudden bullcrap turn-around power-ups.

Ah. So Whis said that without training or fighting Goku and Vegeta couldn't get any stronger in their base forms?

Well the zenkai thing is stated in the Goku Black arc by Trunks or something. As far as training itself goes, the U6 tournament arc seems to hint that their base forms are as strong as they'll ever get, as Vegeta notes that training in the HTC for 3 years won't actually make them stronger, but they continue training to avoid getting weaker and to achieve/balance out newer forms and get new techniques, i.e. Ultra Instinct and SSB. Something else may contradict it, but I don't think their base forms are actually going to get any stronger, but they're still limitless in power via the transformations they can achieve for greater heights.

Whis hammering in the basics for training is him trying to get Ultra Instinct through to Goku and Vegeta.

I see. I don't believe that they can't get any stronger in their base forms.

On a side not. One form I think of that would remove the necessity of other forms is SSJ4 given that it brings out the user's latent potential.

[ankokudaishogun]

I see. I don't believe that they can't get any stronger in their base forms.

their BODIES cannot get any stronger in base.
Basically, they did max-out their STR and STA stats in base, and have to improve amount and quality of techniques and Ki Control

On a side not. One form I think of that would remove the necessity of other forms is SSJ4 given that it brings out the user's latent potential.

Most likely, Buu Saga Goku in SS4 would have the same RESTING power-level as late GT SS4 Goku, as both would end up with their physical capabilities maximized to theiir peak potential and then amplified by the transformation
The difference would be in technique and Ki Control.

This is implied by Ultimate Gohan:Xeno going SS4 but not becoming absurdly stronger: his maximum potential was already unlocked by Ultimate, SS4 only gave him a stronger base-stats body. Then again: Heroes. I know, I know....

[Hulk10]

I see. I don't believe that they can't get any stronger in their base forms.

their BODIES cannot get any stronger in base.
Basically, they did max-out their STR and STA stats in base, and have to improve amount and quality of techniques and Ki Control

On a side not. One form I think of that would remove the necessity of other forms is SSJ4 given that it brings out the user's latent potential.

Most likely, Buu Saga Goku in SS4 would have the same RESTING power-level as late GT SS4 Goku, as both would end up with their physical capabilities maximized to theiir peak potential and then amplified by the transformation
The difference would be in technique and Ki Control.

This is implied by Ultimate Gohan:Xeno going SS4 but not becoming absurdly stronger: his maximum potential was already unlocked by Ultimate, SS4 only gave him a stronger base-stats body. Then again: Heroes. I know, I know....

We don't know that. Just because Whis says its the case doesn't mean it is. And yeah Heroes is a bit iffy at best. But I read that Gohan in SSJ4 had trouble keeping his power under control.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I see. I don't believe that they can't get any stronger in their base forms.

their BODIES cannot get any stronger in base.
Basically, they did max-out their STR and STA stats in base, and have to improve amount and quality of techniques and Ki Control

On a side not. One form I think of that would remove the necessity of other forms is SSJ4 given that it brings out the user's latent potential.

Most likely, Buu Saga Goku in SS4 would have the same RESTING power-level as late GT SS4 Goku, as both would end up with their physical capabilities maximized to theiir peak potential and then amplified by the transformation
The difference would be in technique and Ki Control.

This is implied by Ultimate Gohan:Xeno going SS4 but not becoming absurdly stronger: his maximum potential was already unlocked by Ultimate, SS4 only gave him a stronger base-stats body. Then again: Heroes. I know, I know....

I actually like that explanation. About SS4 simply adding the "multiplier" factor on Ultimate, hence why it's evolution can make it a better form overall.

[Hulk10]

I see. I don't believe that they can't get any stronger in their base forms.

their BODIES cannot get any stronger in base.
Basically, they did max-out their STR and STA stats in base, and have to improve amount and quality of techniques and Ki Control

On a side not. One form I think of that would remove the necessity of other forms is SSJ4 given that it brings out the user's latent potential.

Most likely, Buu Saga Goku in SS4 would have the same RESTING power-level as late GT SS4 Goku, as both would end up with their physical capabilities maximized to theiir peak potential and then amplified by the transformation
The difference would be in technique and Ki Control.

This is implied by Ultimate Gohan:Xeno going SS4 but not becoming absurdly stronger: his maximum potential was already unlocked by Ultimate, SS4 only gave him a stronger base-stats body. Then again: Heroes. I know, I know....

I actually like that explanation. About SS4 simply adding the "multiplier" factor on Ultimate, hence why it's evolution can make it a better form overall.

What do you mean by evolution?

[Grand Marshal 1]

their BODIES cannot get any stronger in base.
Basically, they did max-out their STR and STA stats in base, and have to improve amount and quality of techniques and Ki Control


Most likely, Buu Saga Goku in SS4 would have the same RESTING power-level as late GT SS4 Goku, as both would end up with their physical capabilities maximized to theiir peak potential and then amplified by the transformation
The difference would be in technique and Ki Control.

This is implied by Ultimate Gohan:Xeno going SS4 but not becoming absurdly stronger: his maximum potential was already unlocked by Ultimate, SS4 only gave him a stronger base-stats body. Then again: Heroes. I know, I know....

I actually like that explanation. About SS4 simply adding the "multiplier" factor on Ultimate, hence why it's evolution can make it a better form overall.

What do you mean by evoloution?

In the sense of someone transforming to SS4 while having Ultimate. It would be just an equal form. No need to use it. But the whole process of going SS4 would actually make it beneficial for the user, by providing the additional boost. By the word evolution I meant the whole process and change in the user.

[Hulk10]

I actually like that explanation. About SS4 simply adding the "multiplier" factor on Ultimate, hence why it's evolution can make it a better form overall.

What do you mean by evoloution?

In the sense of someone transforming to SS4 while having Ultimate. It would be just an equal form. No need to use it. But the whole process of going SS4 would actually make it beneficial for the user, by providing the additional boost. By the word evolution I meant the whole process and change in the user.

Ok. I'm confused. How would going SS4 be beneficial if you believe that Ultimate form is equal?

[Grand Marshal 1]

What do you mean by evoloution?

In the sense of someone transforming to SS4 while having Ultimate. It would be just an equal form. No need to use it. But the whole process of going SS4 would actually make it beneficial for the user, by providing the additional boost. By the word evolution I meant the whole process and change in the user.

Ok. I'm confused. How would going SS4 be beneficial if you believe that Ultimate form is equal?

I don't believe it that's the point. Both forms can unleash someone's potential to the max. But unlike Ultimate, SS4 is also a boost in overall Base power. And it makes sense for it to be superior to Ultimate.

If this wasn't the case, Gohan would never need SS4 and Goku and Vegeta would simply ask from Elder Kai to unleash their potential, instead of having their ways to go SS4.

[Hulk10]

In the sense of someone transforming to SS4 while having Ultimate. It would be just an equal form. No need to use it. But the whole process of going SS4 would actually make it beneficial for the user, by providing the additional boost. By the word evolution I meant the whole process and change in the user.

Ok. I'm confused. How would going SS4 be beneficial if you believe that Ultimate form is equal?

I don't believe it that's the point. Both forms can unleash someone's potential to the max. But unlike Ultimate, SS4 is also a boost in overall Base power. And it makes sense for it to be superior to Ultimate.

If this wasn't the case, Gohan would never need SS4 and Goku and Vegeta would simply ask from Elder Kai to unleash their potential, instead of having their ways to go SS4.

Ahhh. I see. Thanks for clearing that up.