"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

The interview says Toriyama came up with the idea for the Galactic Patrol arc and it’s something that Toyotaro and Toriyama are working on together.

All it says is that Toyotaro designed Moro and Merus and with the V-Jump editor decides what designs to use for the Yadratians.

People are just arguing because they don’t want to admit this arc isn’t filler and that when they don’t like the arc they can blame it solely on Toyo.

Where does it say that? The highlights only says:

"Toyotarо̄ describes the planning of the arc as cooperative, and attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama."

Not that it was Toriyama's idea. In fact, the only thing directly credited to Toriyama here is: attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama. Not seeing where it said the arc was Toriyama's idea.

[Kinokima]

The interview says Toriyama came up with the idea for the Galactic Patrol arc and it’s something that Toyotaro and Toriyama are working on together.

All it says is that Toyotaro designed Moro and Merus and with the V-Jump editor decides what designs to use for the Yadratians.

People are just arguing because they don’t want to admit this arc isn’t filler and that when they don’t like the arc they can blame it solely on Toyo.

Where does it say that? The highlights only says:

"Toyotarо̄ describes the planning of the arc as cooperative, and attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama."

Not that it was Toriyama's idea. In fact, the only thing directly credited to Toriyama here is: attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama. Not seeing where it said the arc was Toriyama's idea.

If you read the whole interview it’s in the first paragraph (using Google Translate so it may not be perfect translation)


“ During the meeting with Dr. Toriyama, I was surprised by the idea unique to the original author. I think we were able to get off to a good start with the belief that it would be a good story for each other.”

[Cipher]

The full first response more specifically says that Toyotaro was surprised in early story meetings by the concepts Toriyama offered (as only the original series author could), and that he feels the arc moved forward with mutual confidence that it would make for a good story.

It doesn't (firmly) attribute the seed of the overall arc to either party.

[HeroR]

The interview says Toriyama came up with the idea for the Galactic Patrol arc and it’s something that Toyotaro and Toriyama are working on together.

All it says is that Toyotaro designed Moro and Merus and with the V-Jump editor decides what designs to use for the Yadratians.

People are just arguing because they don’t want to admit this arc isn’t filler and that when they don’t like the arc they can blame it solely on Toyo.

Where does it say that? The highlights only says:

"Toyotarо̄ describes the planning of the arc as cooperative, and attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama."

Not that it was Toriyama's idea. In fact, the only thing directly credited to Toriyama here is: attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama. Not seeing where it said the arc was Toriyama's idea.

If you read the whole interview it’s in the first paragraph


“ During the meeting with Dr. Toriyama, I was surprised by the idea unique to the original author. I think we were able to get off to a good start with the belief that it would be a good story for each other.”

Even that is vague since we only got 'surprised by the idea unique to the original author'. We don't even know what the idea was. This about as informative as Toriyama saying that the Future Trunks Saga was made from a suggestion from his editor. What was the suggestion, we still don't know even today. As far as we know, Toriyama's idea was 'it would be cool if the next villain suck energy from planets' or 'let's have the Grand Supreme Kai come back to fight the next villain'. So far, nothing indicates that the arc itself was Toriyama's idea. Only that Toriyama gave Toyo more than one idea about how to advance and they both had to agree it was a good idea.

[Kinokima]

The full first response more specifically says that Toyotaro was surprised in early story meetings by the concepts Toriyama offered (as only the original series author could), and that he feels the arc moved forward with mutual confidence that it would make for a good story.

It doesn't (firmly) attribute the seed of the overall arc to either party.

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

Basically though it doesn’t say the arc is all Toyo’s arc but a collaborative effort between both of them. People are trying to discount Toriyama because they just want to continously blame anything they don’t like on Toyo

This isn’t anything new though

[Cipher]

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

The word used for "idea"--発想--isn't clear enough in nuance to indicate the overall umbrella concept coming from Toriyama. Lack of plurals in Japanese leads the question of whether it was just one specific "idea" or multiple ones up in the air, but based on the response speaking in overall generalities (as in, not specifying a particular starting meeting, etc.), it reads to me more like a general statement. The question is also phrased such that it asks what kind of talks the two had leading up to the start of the arc (sidestepping conception):

(「銀河パトロール囚人編」がはじまるにあたって、鳥山先生とはどのようなお話をされたのでしょうか。)

This is all getting further into nitty-gritty nuance than either the question or answer really warrant, though. Maybe the idea just coalesced through mutual spitballing. Maybe it came from one or the other. The interview doesn't offer any smoking-gun hints either way, with its wording, though it remains an implication, as it has in all previous discussion about it, that Toyotaro's role in the arc is at least substantially larger than it was in previous ones. Here, "there are elements like a certain new character's secret that I don't think anyone could have thought of but Toriyama-sensei," as opposed to the discussion of previous arcs, where the overall story was very much spoken of as being Toriyama's vision with Toyotaro-specific editions. It would be a step to far to say this is generally talked about as if it were the opposite, but it definitely leans more that way.

[HeroR]

The full first response more specifically says that Toyotaro was surprised in early story meetings by the concepts Toriyama offered (as only the original series author could), and that he feels the arc moved forward with mutual confidence that it would make for a good story.

It doesn't (firmly) attribute the seed of the overall arc to either party.

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

Basically though it doesn’t say the arc is all Toyo’s arc but a collaborative effort between both of them. People are trying to discount Toriyama because they just want to continously blame anything they don’t like on Toyo

This isn’t anything new though

This is honestly a simplification. Like people know that Toriyama approved of the manga's TOP, but very few people like the manga TOP even if Toriyama signed off on UI Roshi. That and people have no problem circle jerking Toriyama's direct work like Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection 'F'. Hell, it was Toriyama's idea to blow up Trunks' timeline and send him to a close enough timeline, and people have complained that was a terrible end to Trunks' story.

[HeroR]

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

The word used for "idea"--発想--isn't clear enough in nuance to indicate the overall umbrella concept coming from Toriyama. Lack of plurals in Japanese leads the question of whether it was just one specific "idea" or multiple ones up in the air, but based on the response speaking in overall generalities (as in, not specifying a particular starting meeting, etc.), it reads to me more like a general statement. The question is also phrased such that it asks what kind of talks the two had leading up to the start of the arc (sidestepping conception):

(「銀河パトロール囚人編」がはじまるにあたって、鳥山先生とはどのようなお話をされたのでしょうか。)

This is all getting further into nitty-gritty nuance than either the question or answer really warrant, though. Maybe the idea just coalesced through mutual spitballing. Maybe it came from one or the other. The interview doesn't offer any smoking-gun hints either way, with its wording, though it remains an implication, as it has in all previous discussion about it, that Toyotaro's role in the arc is at least substantially larger than it was in previous ones.

Thanks for the classification. This is why I want to wait for a good translations with all the nuance explained instead of Google translator.

But it really just confirmed what many of us suspected. Toriyama is involved, but his role seems closer to an editor while this arc is Toyo's baby.

[Cipher]

But it really just confirmed what many of us suspected. Toriyama is involved, but his role seems closer to an editor while this arc is Toyo's baby.

Without making any sweeping statements, taking into account all the behind-the-scenes comments on the arc so far, and the ways they differ from previous arcs, I think this would be a fair assessment.

[Dragon Wukong]

Man, people really don't like Toyotaro. It seems difficult for people to accept that he's going to have greater involvement in the franchise going forward from here. It's already escalated if you look at the timeline.

Heroes Victory Mission -> RoF Manga -> DBS Manga -> Designing side-character Gods of Destruction with Toriyama -> Designing a major villain for a major arc

At what point will people accept that he's actually being groomed to hold the reigns one day? And if this arc is any indication, that's not really a bad thing.

[RecolorSaiyan]

^

Toriyama in one of his early interview with Toyotaro (before GB arc I believe) said that he'd be open to letting Toyotaro take over more and more of the story duties.

[Kinokima]

The full first response more specifically says that Toyotaro was surprised in early story meetings by the concepts Toriyama offered (as only the original series author could), and that he feels the arc moved forward with mutual confidence that it would make for a good story.

It doesn't (firmly) attribute the seed of the overall arc to either party.

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

Basically though it doesn’t say the arc is all Toyo’s arc but a collaborative effort between both of them. People are trying to discount Toriyama because they just want to continously blame anything they don’t like on Toyo

This isn’t anything new though

This is honestly a simplification. Like people know that Toriyama approved of the manga's TOP, but very few people like the manga TOP even if Toriyama signed off on UI Roshi. That and people have no problem circle jerking Toriyama's direct work like Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection 'F'. Hell, it was Toriyama's idea to blow up Trunks' timeline and send him to a close enough timeline, and people have complained that was a terrible end to Trunks' story.

And as for the Manga TOP I continuously saw ppl blame it all on Toyo. In fact in this very thread someone accused him of rushing the TOP arc so he could get to this arc


Toriyama approves everything regardless whether it’s Toyo’s idea or not.


Also even if Toyo has more involvement in this arc. Toriyama is still involved. But ppl will still put all the blame for everything they dislike on Toyo whether he came up with it it not.

As for ppl blaming Toriyama for things they don’t like sure. But he certainly doesn’t get as much ongoing ridiculous criticism as Toyo gets

Now obviously some things like not liking Toyo’s art or when we know an idea is directly his (because he said so) I can understand the direct criticism. But saying this arc is filler or bad because it’s all Toyo is ridiculous.

[OLKv3]

[RecolorSaiyan]

A correction from Toriyama? Wow it’s almost like he’s involved like he was stated to be at last Jump Festa.

FILLER ARC I TELL YOU!!!!

[Rakurai]

Toyotarou could have come up with the entire script and character designs by himself and those ppl would still be wrong.

Then it would be as official as DBGT.

Toyotarou's manga is the successor to the original manga, so whatever transpires also happens in the official continuity of DB.

Official continuity of DB is in Toriyama's head. What we have are official manga and anime interpretations. Both equally as "official" and "unofficial" to the DB continuity.

And that is not how official continuity is assessed, that's just your headcanon. Shueisha has officially stated that the manga is the canonical sequel to the original manga.



Anime-wise, I'm not going to claim anything about its continuity with the original manga with absolutely certainty, but I would argue it is less connected to it than the manga.

[Rakurai]

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

The word used for "idea"--発想--isn't clear enough in nuance to indicate the overall umbrella concept coming from Toriyama. Lack of plurals in Japanese leads the question of whether it was just one specific "idea" or multiple ones up in the air, but based on the response speaking in overall generalities (as in, not specifying a particular starting meeting, etc.), it reads to me more like a general statement. The question is also phrased such that it asks what kind of talks the two had leading up to the start of the arc (sidestepping conception):

(「銀河パトロール囚人編」がはじまるにあたって、鳥山先生とはどのようなお話をされたのでしょうか。)

This is all getting further into nitty-gritty nuance than either the question or answer really warrant, though. Maybe the idea just coalesced through mutual spitballing. Maybe it came from one or the other. The interview doesn't offer any smoking-gun hints either way, with its wording, though it remains an implication, as it has in all previous discussion about it, that Toyotaro's role in the arc is at least substantially larger than it was in previous ones. Here, "there are elements like a certain new character's secret that I don't think anyone could have thought of but Toriyama-sensei," as opposed to the discussion of previous arcs, where the overall story was very much spoken of as being Toriyama's vision with Toyotaro-specific editions. It would be a step to far to say this is generally talked about as if it were the opposite, but it definitely leans more that way.

After reading the interview, to me, it just sounds like Toriyama and Toyotarou have been working on the story of this arc together, with no clear dominant role of one or the other. Like you said, lack of plurals make pinpointing who's doing what difficult if not outright impossible even based on their positions.

発想 is simply like the concept, it's not a full-blown script like the film or outline like the original DBS run. So Toriyama at least came up with the concept of the Galactic Prisoner arc.

[mute_proxy]

And that is not how official continuity is assessed, that's just your headcanon. Shueisha has officially stated that the manga is the canonical sequel to the original manga.



Anime-wise, I'm not going to claim anything about its continuity with the original manga with absolutely certainty, but I would argue it is less connected to it than the manga.

What you posted officially states that Dragon Ball Super, Toriyama's new story, is the canonical sequel to Dragon Ball, which it is. Your headcanon is that Toyotaro's interpretation of the story is above all in terms of continuity, which is solely a matter of opinion.

[infermon]

Volume 11 inside cover.

Spoiler:

(courtesy of https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 7222549504)

I appreciate this AU Toyotaro has constructed wherein Goku and Jaco own competing burger restaurants but go to each other's anyway.

[HeroR]

A correction from Toriyama? Wow it’s almost like he’s involved like he was stated to be at last Jump Festa.

FILLER ARC I TELL YOU!!!!

You know, Toriyama was involved in filler content in Z. Like seriously, it's on the site:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/

[HeroR]

Fair enough but I still would argue that confirms the initial idea of the arc was Toriyama. How the arc shaped and what it ultimately became we don’t know whether the “culprit” was Toyo or Toriyama beyond designs attributed to Toyo and a secret of a character attributed to Toriyama ( who I assume is Merus)

Basically though it doesn’t say the arc is all Toyo’s arc but a collaborative effort between both of them. People are trying to discount Toriyama because they just want to continously blame anything they don’t like on Toyo

This isn’t anything new though

This is honestly a simplification. Like people know that Toriyama approved of the manga's TOP, but very few people like the manga TOP even if Toriyama signed off on UI Roshi. That and people have no problem circle jerking Toriyama's direct work like Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection 'F'. Hell, it was Toriyama's idea to blow up Trunks' timeline and send him to a close enough timeline, and people have complained that was a terrible end to Trunks' story.

And as for the Manga TOP I continuously saw ppl blame it all on Toyo. In fact in this very thread someone accused him of rushing the TOP arc so he could get to this arc


Toriyama approves everything regardless whether it’s Toyo’s idea or not.


Also even if Toyo has more involvement in this arc. Toriyama is still involved. But ppl will still put all the blame for everything they dislike on Toyo whether he came up with it it not.

As for ppl blaming Toriyama for things they don’t like sure. But he certainly doesn’t get as much ongoing ridiculous criticism as Toyo gets

Now obviously some things like not liking Toyo’s art or when we know an idea is directly his (because he said so) I can understand the direct criticism. But saying this arc is filler or bad because it’s all Toyo is ridiculous.

Actually, the theory was that he rushed the TOP to do an adaption of Broly, which everyone and their mother thought Toyo was going to adapt based on statements he made.

Toriyama approving something doesn't make it good by nature, as other have pointed out. You just need to see people's reaction to Resurrection 'F' and Minus here. And people on this site and others have called Toriyama out for allowing Toyo to do the stuff he has done in the manga with UI Roshi being the most standout example. In fact, several people wondered who thought that was a good idea and said okay too Toyo. And Toriyama doesn't get as much ongoing criticism as Toyo because a) Toriyama personally writing anything is rare today with Jaco, Minus, the rewrite of Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and Broly being his only direct work since 2013, and b) Toriyama regardless of his modern writing still has old word to look back on at his peak while Toyo doesn't, and c) at the end of the day Toyo is writing the story even if he is following the Toriyama's outline and ideas. Honestly, if this arc proved anything, it's that Toriyama isn't a very good editor.

I say this arc is bad because Toyo is a mediocre writer and this arc really highlights his flaws as a writer. He took an idea of a magical, planet eating goat and implemented it and the more boring way possible to the point that minor villain Babidi comes out as more interesting, not helping that Moro has the most standard Dragon Ball villain personality with none of the charm. Meerus is written like a bad OC you find in fanfics, the pacing is off to the point that several chapters could have been merged or not needed like the early invasion of Earth (Moro was coming to Earth anyway, so having the Z-Fighters rushed to meet this new threat like the Saiyan Saga is more interesting than taking the Cell Games route), options are never mentioned like Evil Containment Wave or why isn't Shin involved and talking to Beerus about his lack of action, especially when their universe just got off the chopping block for this kind of crap, why does Goku needs Meerus to get UI over Whis since all Meerus been doing is beating the shit out of Goku and why is UI even the answer to energy sucking to begin with?

I could go on, but I hope I see my point. While this arc is better than Toyo's TOP (which honestly isn't say much), he still has the similar weaknesses to his previous work and comes off as worse since the plot is so weak and forced in many places, and Toriyama not correcting these issues just tells me that he isn't the editor Toyo needs.