Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

There is nothing backing up SS4 Gogeta >> SS Gogeta from the Broly movie

Goku and Vegeta have become that much weaker for what reason exactly? That’s like saying SS Goku from DBSuper being stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT is feasible.

huh? when did I say they got much weaker? SS4 is most likely on par with SS God.

[Hugo Boss]

There is nothing backing up SS4 Gogeta >> SS Gogeta from the Broly movie

Goku and Vegeta have become that much weaker for what reason exactly? That’s like saying SS Goku from DBSuper being stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT is feasible.

huh? when did I say they got much weaker? SS4 is most likely on par with SS God.

Read your previous quote. You compared SS4 Gogeta with SS Gogeta and somehow you think it’s not obvious that SS4 is stronger than SS. Have SS Goku and Vegeta become that much weaker, that in order to catch up they have to become SS4?!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku and Vegeta have become that much weaker for what reason exactly? That’s like saying SS Goku from DBSuper being stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT is feasible.

huh? when did I say they got much weaker? SS4 is most likely on par with SS God.

Read your previous quote. You compared SS4 Gogeta with SS Gogeta and somehow you think it’s not obvious that SS4 is stronger than SS. Have SS Goku and Vegeta become that much weaker, that in order to catch up they have to become SS4?!

I believe it's to do with the scaling and how it seems to differ between GT and Super. In GT, Fusion being dozens of times stronger and this not being simple words is feasible, meanwhile Fusion now keeps getting exponentially stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

I still don’t understand what you guys are talking about. DBGT comes after DBSuper and Fusion works exactly as Goku pointed out in the Majin Boo Arc in any situation. This “dozens of times” remark isn’t even a clear cut statement, just an attempt of description that is not supposed to be taken literally and can be applied in any kind of transformation this franchise has.

[Koitsukai]

Goku and Vegeta have become that much weaker for what reason exactly? That’s like saying SS Goku from DBSuper being stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT is feasible.

huh? when did I say they got much weaker? SS4 is most likely on par with SS God.

Read your previous quote. You compared SS4 Gogeta with SS Gogeta and somehow you think it’s not obvious that SS4 is stronger than SS. Have SS Goku and Vegeta become that much weaker, that in order to catch up they have to become SS4?!

I stand by what I said, SS Gogeta from the Broly movie beats SS4 Gogeta from GT, doesn't matter the transformation, he is still a stronger character, just like SS Broly can trash two SSB, or SS2 Vegeta can surpass SS3 Goku.

To compare characters from different shows we need to find a common ground like SSG = SS4, given that GT surpassed Z Super Vegito a few episodes before SS4 appeared, and God is stronger than BoG Vegito's full power.

SS4 = hypothetical Super Vegito/Gogeta from GT means SS4 is on par with a contemporary SS fusion, while SSG was stronger than at least a SS2 contemporary fusion so of course it stomps Z Vegito even harder than SS4, then I have to give the edge to SSG.
On top of that they unlock another transformation, break their limits, achieve greater levels and even have a taste of UI. Then they fuse and are as strong as blue and then they go Super Saiyan, so yeah GT has nothing to do.

And it doesn't really matter what comes first because they are not part of the same continuity.

[Hugo Boss]

[...]
GT surpassed Z Super Vegito a few episodes before SS4 appeared, and God is stronger than BoG Vegito's full power.

SS4 = hypothetical Super Vegito/Gogeta from GT means SS4 is on par with a contemporary SS fusion, while SSG was stronger than at least a SS2 contemporary fusion so of course it stomps Z Vegito even harder than SS4, then I have to give the edge to SSG.
[...]

What are you basing this opinion on? SS4, SSGod, Gogeta and Vegetto were never compared and the continuity discussion doesn’t have to do with power scalling. It’s totally reasonable to assume Base Goku in DBGT is stronger than Base Goku in DBSuper, considering their time frame. The rest is simple deduction.

[p-hyvo]

[...]
GT surpassed Z Super Vegito a few episodes before SS4 appeared, and God is stronger than BoG Vegito's full power.

SS4 = hypothetical Super Vegito/Gogeta from GT means SS4 is on par with a contemporary SS fusion, while SSG was stronger than at least a SS2 contemporary fusion so of course it stomps Z Vegito even harder than SS4, then I have to give the edge to SSG.
[...]

What are you basing this opinion on? SS4, SSGod, Gogeta and Vegetto were never compared and the continuity discussion doesn’t have to do with power scalling. It’s totally reasonable to assume Base Goku in DBGT is stronger than Base Goku in DBSuper, considering their time frame. The rest is simple deduction.

Ssj4>=ssj fusion while, being beaten by suppressed beerus on king kai's planet, goku told that not even the fusion would have been enough to beat him

ritual God>>>>suppressed beerus vs vegeta>>suppressed beerus vs goku>>fullpower fusion>>ssj4>=ssj fusion
So yes, at least ritual God is far stronger than ssj4.
For what concerns the mastered God from that goku and vegeta learned to use, we're up to debate. It could be slightly higher than ssj4, but lower too. For the mastered god are all opinions really

[Hugo Boss]

[...]
GT surpassed Z Super Vegito a few episodes before SS4 appeared, and God is stronger than BoG Vegito's full power.

SS4 = hypothetical Super Vegito/Gogeta from GT means SS4 is on par with a contemporary SS fusion, while SSG was stronger than at least a SS2 contemporary fusion so of course it stomps Z Vegito even harder than SS4, then I have to give the edge to SSG.
[...]

What are you basing this opinion on? SS4, SSGod, Gogeta and Vegetto were never compared and the continuity discussion doesn’t have to do with power scalling. It’s totally reasonable to assume Base Goku in DBGT is stronger than Base Goku in DBSuper, considering their time frame. The rest is simple deduction.

Ssj4>=ssj fusion while, being beaten by suppressed beerus on king kai's planet, goku told that not even the fusion would have been enough to beat him

ritual God>>>>suppressed beerus vs vegeta>>suppressed beerus vs goku>>fullpower fusion>>ssj4>=ssj fusion
So yes, at least ritual God is far stronger than ssj4.
For what concerns the mastered God from that goku and vegeta learned to use, we're up to debate. It could be slightly higher than ssj4, but lower too. For the mastered god are all opinions really

Why are you claiming that SS4 is weaker than Fusion and that Fusion is weaker than SSGod? Goku compared Fusion with Beerus, who is obviously much stronger than everything debated here. And Fusion is confirmed to be stronger than SSBlue at this point.

[Shintoki]

well, it depends of which ''SSG'' we are talking about. if we are talking about BOG's SSG then it equaled 60% and pushed beerus to about 70% of his power. if we are talking about the manga/TV show SSG then we have no idea how strong it was since they don't scale off the films

so there are more than 1 answer to this question!

[Hugo Boss]

The question really is why some people think SS Gogeta from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Gogeta from DBGT, which I don’t quite understand yet. They are basically implying they think SS Goku from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The question really is why some people think SS Gogeta from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Gogeta from DBGT, which I don’t quite understand yet. They are basically implying they think SS Goku from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT.

Mainly because, while people can buy SS4 Goku/Vegeta from GT being up there with SSG, SS4 Gogeta doesn't come off like his base form would be as strong as SS4 on its own while Gogeta was very clearly SSB-level in base before even turning Super Saiyan.

GT Gogeta actually seems like he's only a few dozen/hundred times stronger than Goku or Vegeta individually. Meanwhile, Fusions in the primary continuity have been made retroactively stronger, a retroactive change that isn't applicable to GT Gogeta because of his own feats and statements.

[Hugo Boss]

The question really is why some people think SS Gogeta from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Gogeta from DBGT, which I don’t quite understand yet. They are basically implying they think SS Goku from DBSuper is stronger than SS4 Goku from DBGT.

Mainly because, while people can buy SS4 Goku/Vegeta from GT being up there with SSG, SS4 Gogeta doesn't come off like his base form would be as strong as SS4 on its own while Gogeta was very clearly SSB-level in base before even turning Super Saiyan.

GT Gogeta actually seems like he's only a few dozen/hundred times stronger than Goku or Vegeta individually. Meanwhile, Fusions in the primary continuity have been made retroactively stronger, a retroactive change that isn't applicable to GT Gogeta because of his own feats and statements.

I don’t see nothing supporting this idea that Metamorian Fusion works differently in different continuities. This keeps being brought up without any consistent argument being made (which feats? which statements?). In DBGT, I only saw a Saiyan Fusion: SS4 Gogeta. How exactly his performance is lacking in comparison to Gogeta from DBSuper?! Why this assumption that his power-up is not that great?

Logically, it depends on how strong do you think Goku and Vegeta are in DBSuper and DBGT. If they are equal, SS Gogeta has the same battle power in each verse. If they get stronger, SS Gogeta from DBGT is the stronger one. If they get weaker, SS Gogeta from DBSuper is the stronger one. Easy-peasy.

Anyway, even assuming Goku and Vegeta from DBGT are weaker, are they that much weaker?!

[ZombieVito]

Let's see some Boo arc numbers!

Goku:
-- Super Saiyan 3:

Super Boo:

Gohan:
-- After Z Sword:
-- Ultimate:

Vegetto:
-- Super Saiyan:

[p-hyvo]

Let's see some Boo arc numbers!

Goku:
-- Super Saiyan 3:

Super Boo:

Gohan:
-- After Z Sword:
-- Ultimate:

Vegetto:
-- Super Saiyan:

I have :


Goku: 300'000'000'000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120'000'000'000'000 at fullpower, 60'000'000'000'000 if not
Goku, pre fusion : 425'000'000'000
Ssj3 : 170'000'000'000'000
Post fusion , lowball (classic anime only) : 13'000'000'000'000
Post fusion, Highball : 650'000'000'000'000

Bonus : Vegeta
Start of buu saga : 225'000'000'000
Pre fusion (confirmed by the description on the dvd box set to be stronger than before ) : 375'000'000'000
Post fusion , lowball (classic anime only) : 9'000'000'000'000
Post fusion, Highball : 400'000'000'000'000

Super Boo:
Lowball : 360'000'000'000'000
Highball : 18'000'000'000'000'000
Post vice scream (anime only) 720'000'000'000'000/ 36'000'000'000'000'000 (confirmed by the description on the dvd box set to be stronger than before )
Gohan:
-- After Z Sword: 540'000'000'000
-- Ultimate:
Lowball : 540'000'000'000'000
Highball : 27'000'000'000'000'000


Vegetto:
Anime , lowball : (sum x1500) 1'200'000'000'000'000
Anime, Highball : (sum x75'000) 60'000'000'000'000'000
Manga, lowball :(sum x1100) 800'000'000'000'000
Manga, highball : (sum x50'000) 40'000'000'000'000'000
-- Super Saiyan:
anime, lowball : 60'000'000'000'000'000
Anime, Highball : 3'000'000'000'000'000'000
Manga, lowball : 40'000'000'000'000'000
Manga, Highball : 2'000'000'000'000'000'000



That pretty complete, hope you are fine with that even if i see you wont be ok with my numbers, for what that matters

[Soldierofficial]

Let's see some Boo arc numbers!

Goku:
-- Super Saiyan 3:

Super Boo:

Gohan:
-- After Z Sword:
-- Ultimate:

Vegetto:
-- Super Saiyan:

Goku: 4,800,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 4,800,000,000,000

Super Boo: 4,800,000,000,000,000

Gohan: 3,000,000,000
-- After Z Sword: 6,000,000,000
-- Ultimate: 7,200,000,000,000,000

Vegetto: 12,000,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 600,000,000,000,000,000

[Grand Marshal 1]

Numbers become obsolete at some point am I right? Lol

[Alruneia]

Numbers become obsolete at some point am I right? Lol

Numerical power levels were pretty much made to be wrong. Even in the Raditz fight, the first time we see them, they're shown to be unreliable multiple times (Goku, Piccolo and Gohan's power levels all vary). The numbers continue to be generally misleading all the way up to Future Trunks' measurement of 5. Hell, Vegeta even directly says "we saiyans can't be reduced to numbers" to 19. Dragon Ball has some pretty analytical fans, though, who like putting numbers to things even if they're not meant to.
Anyway, since it's implied that BoG Goku wouldn't be able to beat Frieza in his base form, I'd dial those numbers down a bit. Not that that isn't a whole debate, though...

[Grand Marshal 1]

Numbers become obsolete at some point am I right? Lol

Numerical power levels were pretty much made to be wrong. Even in the Raditz fight, the first time we see them, they're shown to be unreliable multiple times (Goku, Piccolo and Gohan's power levels all vary). The numbers continue to be generally misleading all the way up to Future Trunks' measurement of 5. Hell, Vegeta even directly says "we saiyans can't be reduced to numbers" to 19. Dragon Ball has some pretty analytical fans, though, who like putting numbers to things even if they're not meant to.
Anyway, since it's implied that BoG Goku wouldn't be able to beat Frieza in his base form, I'd dial those numbers down a bit. Not that that isn't a whole debate, though...

I would be down for that actually. Trying to tone down the numbers a little. But yeah IA gfee with that notion. PLs are made to confuse lol.

Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that we can't really scale characters based on their power. That, I like. Which means that I would do something like this:

Goku: 1
-- Super Saiyan 3: 400

Super Boo: 450
--Piccolo absorbed: 460
--Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks absorbed: 910
--Goten and Trunks and Piccolo absorbed: 460+
--Ultimate Gohan absorbed: 1,000
--Enraged: 5,000

Gotenks: 1/5
--Post-RoSaT: 1+
--Super Saiyan 3: 450

Gohan: 1/10
-- After Z Sword: 1
-- Ultimate: 500

Vegetto: 1,000
-- Super Saiyan: 50,000

Just some numbers that came to mind. They don't represent anything more. They refer to the Buu arc from the anime and only. Trying to mix the numbers to find the perfect formula for the entire franchise is impossible, can mess up your nerves and will never be valid.

[Koitsukai]

Let's see some Boo arc numbers!

Goku:
-- Base= 100 M
-- SS3= 40,000 M

Super Boo: 50,000 M
-- Piccolo, Goten, Trunks absorbed = 53,000 M
-- Gotenks absorbed = 105,000 M
-- Gohan absorbed = 123,000 M

Gohan:
-- After Z Sword: 100 M
-- Ultimate: 70,000 M

Vegetto (highball to match in base SS3 Goku):
-- Base= 40,000 M (with a x4 stealth kaioken like in Namek he can trash Buuhan like in the anime)
-- Super Saiyan= 2,000,000 M
or
Vegetto (lowball to match in base SS2 Goku)
--Base= 10.000 M
-- Super Saiyan= 500.000 M

[ZombieVito]

Let's see some Boo arc numbers!

Goku:
-- Base= 100 M
-- SS3= 40,000 M

Super Boo: 50,000 M
-- Piccolo, Goten, Trunks absorbed = 53,000 M
-- Gotenks absorbed = 105,000 M
-- Gohan absorbed = 123,000 M

Gohan:
-- After Z Sword: 100 M
-- Ultimate: 70,000 M

Vegetto (highball to match in base SS3 Goku):
-- Base= 40,000 M (with a x4 stealth kaioken like in Namek he can trash Buuhan like in the anime)
-- Super Saiyan= 2,000,000 M
or
Vegetto (lowball to match in base SS2 Goku)
--Base= 10.000 M
-- Super Saiyan= 500.000 M

Very interesting. I tried to come up with post Z sword Gohan's power but decided to just say fuck it and made him equal to Goku.

I also made SS3 Gotenks and Super Boo equal since the latter said no one surpassed him before he felt Ultimate Gohan's power.

P.S. I also made base Vegetto = SS3 Goku. Bloody hell.