"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Mister_Popo]

Even though he said he would go with everything, this could be the most he could do with 6 months of training.

Considering Merus was planning to go all out too, I'd assume Omen wouldn't be enough for sparring

But Merus wasn't about to use his full power because Goku forced it, but because they both agreed to have one last fight at full level (remembering that Merus also said that he would use full strength to get Goku to unlock the UI again), so that didn't necessarily means that Goku has mastered the silver-haired IU. It could be anything, but I'd bet it's Omen, the perfect UI would be very OP right now

Would it make sense for Merus to go all out against Goku if he knew he wasn't at least approaching his level?
Merus could feel how much Goku had progressed.

The endgoal was a further mastery of UI, not obtaining it shortly again as such. That would have meant all that months of training hadn't brought up much more than the short UI-tap-in during TOP, which probably is not enough to beat Moro.

Omen in my opinion is a step down in comparison to the true mastery of Ultra Instinct. At first glance.
But maybe you could be right about this. What we saw in this chapter was a Vegeta that did manage to attack effortlessly.
If Goku manages to master Omen, they could team up together, Goku defending and Vegeta attacking.
That was something that was predicted amongst fans during anime TOP but eventually never happened.
It would be intresting to see nontheless. Such a team-up would prevent the need for an OP fully mastered Completed UI Goku.

Goku could also have almost learned to master Completed UI, being able to use it for a longer period of time, but not yet at will endlessly like the angels.

[TKA]

Nothing really happened, but enjoyable enough.

Glad Toyotaro made it clear that Vegeta will get more from this than just a nondescript power boost. Goku, meanwhile, was beginning to transform before Whis came in; good foreshadowing.

Merus is finally explained, though this mystery being built up for so long only to be something people guessed right away is... unremarkable. Hopefully there's more of a role for him in this arc, otherwise I'd question his entire inclusion to begin with.

Only thing really of note is that a random member of Zarbon's species lifting a building means he's stronger than SS4 Goku. 100% confirmed.

[Kinokima]

While I don’t want Goku or Vegeta’s training to be wasted I also think either a solo Goku or Vegeta win would be a bit anti climatic at this point for me. Though I would love a Goku and Vegeta win with them having opposite strengths that complement each other as mentioned above.

For all the time Goku & Vegeta work together there hasn’t really been a solid win against a main baddie with the two of them that didn’t involve fusion. I am not sure if this arc will ultimately go that route because I do feel Merus will have more of a role to play.

I also wonder if the story has been set up for Merus to sacrifice himself to save the the Universe ( if he gets involved beyond what he is allowed). Of course a character disappearing/dying for good seems something Dragon Ball probably wouldn’t do. And if the story did go this route but Merus came back it would cheapen this type of ending for me. But if they do go this route and stick with it it could be a powerful ending to tie the whole thing together.


Or maybe Merus could lose his status as an Angel but stay as a mortal on the Galatic Patrol. That wouldn’t be as dramatic but at least there would be a permanent change

[Zamasu55]

All we know is that Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct. Now we have to find out which version it is, and I guess we'll have to wait a bit since Goku is stuck on another planet and probably won't make it in time.

[HeroR]

All we know is that Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct. Now we have to find out which version it is, and I guess we'll have to wait a bit since Goku is stuck on another planet and probably won't make it in time.

If it is Omen, it’s not ‘mastered’ since that’s the version Beerus has and Whis called Beerus’ UI not mastered in Resurrection ‘F’ and in the battle royal chapter.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Considering Merus was planning to go all out too, I'd assume Omen wouldn't be enough for sparring

But Merus wasn't about to use his full power because Goku forced it, but because they both agreed to have one last fight at full level (remembering that Merus also said that he would use full strength to get Goku to unlock the UI again), so that didn't necessarily means that Goku has mastered the silver-haired IU. It could be anything, but I'd bet it's Omen, the perfect UI would be very OP right now

Would it make sense for Merus to go all out against Goku if he knew he wasn't at least approaching his level?
Merus could feel how much Goku had progressed.

The endgoal was a further mastery of UI, not obtaining it shortly again as such. That would have meant all that months of training hadn't brought up much more than the short UI-tap-in during TOP, which probably is not enough to beat Moro.

Omen in my opinion is a step down in comparison to the true mastery of Ultra Instinct. At first glance.
But maybe you could be right about this. What we saw in this chapter was a Vegeta that did manage to attack effortlessly.
If Goku manages to master Omen, they could team up together, Goku defending and Vegeta attacking.
That was something that was predicted amongst fans during anime TOP but eventually never happened.
It would be intresting to see nontheless. Such a team-up would prevent the need for an OP fully mastered Completed UI Goku.

Goku could also have almost learned to master Completed UI, being able to use it for a longer period of time, but not yet at will endlessly like the angels.

Yes, Merus was about to use all his power because Goku would use it too, I wouldn't say Goku forced him into it, nor does that mean he is close to Merus level. Goku definitely got stronger regardless of UI, but I don't think it's at this level

The goal was just to be able to access the UI at will (it was not specified whether it was Omen or the mastered version). And apparently, Goku was able to consciously access the transformation

[Rakurai]

Merus is indeed an Angel-in-training. I wonder who the mother is, if there even is one.

Angels are supposed to remain neutral but Whis has literally done things that went beyond "training," like restore Earth or fix another timeline. Like, what has GP done about these things? I suppose more slack is given to the existing fully-fledged Angels of their own respective universe, but still...

Spirit control allowing you to use these wacky but diverse techniques, it def has to be different from regular Ki control. Goku and Vegeta have such large and potentially refined Kis, but Vegeta couldn't even learn something as simple as IT before. Also, didn't Perfect Cell learn it on the spot, meaning his Spirit control suddenly got refined? Dr. Gero's ultimate lifeform has a lot more greater potential than we thought.

Shoot, that means Cooler is also...

Interesting to note, this could make GT more contradictory, seeing as how kid Goku couldn't manage IT; why would spirit control be affected by age? Or perhaps somehow his spirit control got reverted back to the level of when he was at that age, which would actually make more sense and close that weird 'can't use ability properly' loophole that was exclusive to IT. Toyotarou is playing a 4D chess game with us here...

[Zamasu55]

All we know is that Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct. Now we have to find out which version it is, and I guess we'll have to wait a bit since Goku is stuck on another planet and probably won't make it in time.

If it is Omen, it’s not ‘mastered’ since that’s the version Beerus has and Whis called Beerus’ UI not mastered in Resurrection ‘F’ and in the battle royal chapter.

I meant he can activate that at will.

[Lionel]

So non-belligerent neutrality isn't just an ideological rule, it's integral to the survival of the angels. What Merus has done violates this indispensable survival facet, according to Daishinkan and Whis. Strange, like others mentioned, Whis had already exceeded his own authority by reversing time in order to preserve Earth. It could be dressed up as a learning experience for his two latest students but the preservation of that planet has universe spanning ramifications with its Dragon Balls and collection of incredibly powerful fighters.

As much I appreciate Vegeta branching out with respect to his training, I don't want this Spirit Control discipline to become the ultimate grail of every distinct and arcane ability in existence. Hearing about Vegeta potentially gaining powers that set the likes of Dende apart does not sit well with me personally. It's like they want for his character to boast of it in all ways -- or in other words, he can retain this wildcat identity of an overpowering fighter while becoming a tactful artisan of the arcane and eccentric at the same time.

I'm hoping that they moderate Vegeta's new abilities from the Yardratians. It sounds biased and it is, but I want for the supporting cast to retain at least some of their distinguishing traits. If you have Vegeta elongating his limbs and healing people like a Namekian, what else will they counterfeit? Buu's regeneration? Tenshinhan's Four Witches ability?

This seems to be the arc of multi-planetary elaboration. We seem to be getting a lot of callbacks and nods of acknowledgement to characters from the classic manga. People might see it as rehashing but I think it does give some elaboration on the backgrounds of species as Zarbon's and Puipui's, if indirectly.

[Rakurai]

This seems to be the arc of multi-planetary elaboration. We seem to be getting a lot of callbacks and nods of acknowledgement to characters from the classic manga. People might see it as rehashing but I think it does give some elaboration on the backgrounds of species as Zarbon's and Puipui's, if indirectly.

I agree, we're getting back to the roots of the original DB sagas and seeing that there's a lot more to each race than just a one-timer. If there are Saiyans living in unconditioned planets like Vampa, why can't we see another Zarbon race alike? We're also seeing some counterparts of the U6-verse and slight GT references.

Ppl clamor for expansion of the DB-verse and Toyotarou is simply doing it on a small U7-scale. New races can always be explored if they ever go into the multi-verse realm.

[Tai Lung]

That means nothing because Toriyama has given negative and positive opinions about his work before it does not mean that he is more or less involved.

He says he is teaming up with Toriyama. Which has never been said about the previous arcs. And then the latest interview confirms Toriyama's involvement including developing some major arc secrets.

It sure feels like more involvement if you ask me. At the very least, you cannot say the same thing (i.e. teaming up with Toyotarou, Toei) about the previous arcs.

According to Toriyama, he did almost all the zamasu arc, the exceptions are the battle of vegeta and zamasu, the return of vegito and trunks always surpassing that, you could say almost the whole story was his idea

but in this case .... that interview doesn't tell me much aliguall than in the tournament

[Xeztin]

Does anyone else think it might not be Omen or UI but something new branching off of it? If he was going to use Omen, I didn’t see a big deal with revealing it. We just seen it last arc, I get why he wouldn’t for plot reasons, but there is always something new every arc, fusion, forms, techniques, etc.

[GodVegetto91]

It literally makes NO sense for Goku to spend all that time in a time chamber, training with an Angel (For the sole purpose of mastering “MUI”)! If he’s not going to achieve its full power version (both defensive and offensive). Use Occam’s Razor guys.

That would be a WASTE.

Omen is literally an incomplete version, hence shouldn’t exist!

[TKA]

Yes, Merus was about to use all his power because Goku would use it too, I wouldn't say Goku forced him into it, nor does that mean he is close to Merus level. Goku definitely got stronger regardless of UI, but I don't think it's at this level

I actually think that's what we're supposed to take away from it. The scene doesn't make sense if we aren't to assume Goku has become Merus' equal, or at least close to the same power. There's no other reason for him to go all out.

The same chapter also establishes that Merus is still in training himself, so it makes sense that he isn't as powerful as Whis and the other angels.

[ankokudaishogun]

"Spirit Control" is basically "Ki Quality Control". I wonder how it will apply to God Ki?

That said, an issue I have with this arc is... Goku and Vegeta are just too strong for the rest of the galaxy so it's impossible to actually understand if those convicts are something strong or random chumps.
They should have brought Krilin or Tenshinhan with them, to give us better understanding of the scale

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes, Merus was about to use all his power because Goku would use it too, I wouldn't say Goku forced him into it, nor does that mean he is close to Merus level. Goku definitely got stronger regardless of UI, but I don't think it's at this level

I actually think that's what we're supposed to take away from it. The scene doesn't make sense if we aren't to assume Goku has become Merus' equal, or at least close to the same power. There's no other reason for him to go all out.

The same chapter also establishes that Merus is still in training himself, so it makes sense that he isn't as powerful as Whis and the other angels.

Yes, but Merus using all his power is something that was established since the beginning of the training, when Goku couldn't even activate the UI on his own. In fact, he intended to do just that to force Goku to awaken the transformation again. He basically used all his power with respect to Goku who would also use everything he learned in training

[Koitsukai]

I wonder if now that Vegeta has spirit control, Moro can still take that power away from him. Perhaps now that he has complete(?) control over it, Moro won't be able to drain him.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think that the whole Spirit training is an amazing concept. First it introduces something brand new on the table, but it also makes fighting a lot more interesting.

Just think about it. How many fighters have we seen that they either had no sync or good sync with their spirit, resulting in their fights with the main cast?

Vegeta didn't get stronger. He had the power, he just couldn't output it efficiently. Makes you wonder if a less strong opponent can simply keep up with a stronger fighter due to them having a better sync with their spirit.

Anyway, truly enjoyed Vegeta's development and surprise to his power. This makes far more sense now in the manga.

[GodVegetto91]

I think that the whole Spirit training is an amazing concept. First it introduces something brand new on the table, but it also makes fighting a lot more interesting.

Just think about it. How many fighters have we seen that they either had no sync or good sync with their spirit, resulting in their fights with the main cast?

Vegeta didn't get stronger. He had the power, he just couldn't output it efficiently. Makes you wonder if a less strong opponent can simply keep up with a stronger fighter due to them having a better sync with their spirit.

Anyway, truly enjoyed Vegeta's development and surprise to his power. This makes far more sense now in the manga.

Thus he became stronger in ACTUALIZATION.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 55:

- Interesting lore with the Angels, but most of it already stuff we know. Like how Angels must remain neutral and not get physically involved in conflicts. At least the consequence of WHY that is the case are made more apparent. And hey, it'll serve as good handwave as to why the cast choose not to rely on Whis to help.
- Is Yuzun a member of Zarbon's race or is he a direct relative of him, because he look exactly like Zarbon. Hell, he even transforms into a hideous monster like him. What is he!? I know what he is... he's a shameless callback.
- Vegeta beating up Yuzun does nothing for me because:
1. Yuzun does nothing to establish himself a major threat to make him getting stomped cathartic
2. The display of Vegeta's new power from his training with the Yardrats doesn't appear any different from how he fought before
3. The panelling and fight choreography are subpar
- Merus being an Angel is officially the worst kept secret in all of Dragon Ball. Fans called that reveal many months ago.
- I do have to wonder, with this chapter heavily hinting at Merus bowing out of the story arc, whether his introduction into the plot felt worthwhile and necessary. And I'm quite conflicted in that regard. He certainly helped in getting the ball rolling when the arc kicked off, but he gradually faded into the background. It wasn't as bad as Majin Boo, but you could tell once Moro granted his wish and gained his grunts that Toyo was looking for ANY reason to keep Merus in the plot for as long as possible. And I suppose training with Goku was a good enough reason. I guess I just wish that we could have gained more of a perspective into his personality from that training. He reminds me a lot of how Future Trunks was treated in the Cell arc. Integral in the plot to begin with, until it was decided to reduce his role significantly out of convenience.
- The final gag of Goku call for Whis to come back when he realised he couldn't Jaco's spacecraft was pretty funny... if also pretty dumb for Goku to forget his can't fly Jaco's spacecraft.

Overall thoughts... a lot of padding and exposition.