Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Omgzord]

I don't see why Jiren would be stronger than UI Goku tbh. He lost to him in the ToP and there's no way Jiren progresses faster than Goku does.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't see why Jiren would be stronger than UI Goku tbh. He lost to him in the ToP and there's no way Jiren progresses faster than Goku does.

Jiren shouldn’t be assumed to be stronger than he was during the ToP. Especially if this is the manga version of him. Ultra Instinct Goku in the Moro arc will most definitely be stronger than what he was during the ToP. If by any chance Toyo makes him still weaker or doubtfully around Beerus imma call it bs. I’m expecting completed UI Goku to be stronger than Broly, but perhaps not stronger than Gogeta.

[Sherlock Holmes]

In Heroes what is stronger between Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta?

Probably Gogeta.

Gogeta by a long shot. He’s above zeno according to the anime at least. The scaling is fucked up because not even SSjB kkx20 Vegito, nor xeno Vegito SSj4 were able to best base Cumber. Then MUI Goku casually clapped SSj3 Cumber, and Jiren did that too. Then Hearts pretty much started toying with all of them, and then Gogeta SSjB showed up and clapped hearts. The difference in power is so massive and inconsistent, it’s outrageously ridiculous to take seriously.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I think Dragon Ball Heroes anime simply has Gogeta > Hearts > Ultra Instinct > Vegetto.

Heroes anime has Gogeta>Hearts> Zeno lol. It’s pretty evident that the anime doesn’t really care what’s fucked up or not. The arcade game (hopefully) doesn’t have this ridiculous scaling. Although Hearts in the arcade game does want to kill zeno and has the power to do so. Correct me if I’m wrong. The reason I say so is, despite it being 2 different continuities, the goal of Hearts, is basically to gain power to kill zeno, which he successfully gains by absorbing the universe seed.

[Sherlock Holmes]

BTW, i am aware that using those waffer stickers to prove a point is stupid, but i just remembered that there was a vegito sticker, the one that went up against cumber, with a power level of 9300, the power level that only FT arc vegito should have, and it got me thinking that maybe that vegito was treated as if it was as strong as back then.

we already have an updated vegito along with gogeta at 9800, 200 points more than UI Goku from the ToP.

but thats if you care about the stickers, because i dont.

It’ll be gladly appreciated if you could send em scans my way. Just want to have those stickers

[Rakurai]

Let's ignore the promo anime and just use the arcade.
Feel free to correct me if I got something wrong

• Both Vegetto Blue and V4 did manage to win against SSCumber and SS3 Cumber respectively.
• Goku Blue and Goku:Xeno 4 are more or less on the same level, with Goku Blue having a small edge.
• There is no reason to believe Vegeta:Xeno is much stronger than Vegeta:UM
• Therefore Vegetto Blue and V4 should be more or less equal
• This means SSCumber is stronger than Fusion God, but Fusion Blue(and 4) are more than 8 times stronger than SSCumber
• It also means Vegetto Blue wasn't going full-power against SS Cumber.
• It's unclear if V4 was going full-power against SS3 Cumber or not.

So:
Vegetto Blue~V4>SS3 Cumber>Vegetto Blue(not full power)>SSCumber>Goku Blue~Goku:Xeno 4

MUI is enough to fight SS3 Cumber, but because it's unclear the amount of effort V4 used to fight him, it's impossible to gauge if it's stronger, equal or weaker than V4 and therefore Blue

Likewise SFP Jiren was stated by Cumber being the strongest he ever faced.
This implies SFP Jiren is stronger than Goku MUI by a sensible amount, enough for Cumber to go excited enough and go Full Power SS3

It also implies Jiren was stronger than V4 as well. But as aforementioned, we don't know the amount of effort the fused Time Patroller used to fight Cumber.
It's possible V4(and therefore Vegetto Blue) was still stronger than Jiren, but didn't exerted his full might.
As well it's worth to remember SFP Jiren was fighting SS3 Cumber, Fused Zamasu and Hearts at the same time

SSB Vegetto didn't win against SS Cumber. Their battle was halted by Fuu teleporting Cumber back, with Cumber commenting "You let them think they won."

Perhaps SS4 XGoku was weakened during that time, but after Blueku vs SS4ku, we learn that the SS4 Xeno duo = SS Cumber, whereas CC Goku & Vegeta couldn't even stand up to a base Cumber. Or the Xeno duo massively powered up during their time in the Prison Planet.

V4 implied that he was going all-out on SS3 Cumber, and XGoku confirms that they finished Cumber off while fused (for a while at least). "I'll bring out an enormous power the likes of which you've never felt before..."

So at the end of the Prison Planet arc (UVM5), I believe the scaling goes like: V4 ~(?) UI Goku > SS3 Cumber > SS Cumber = SS4 XGoku & XVegeta ~(?) VBlue > SSB Goku & Vegeta.

Hard to rank Golden Ape Cumber & Super Fu individually since they were fighting against a team of Majin Ozotto, SSB-KK Goku, Vegeta, & Trunks, and Fu stopped Cumber's rampage prematurely.

FP Jiren was indeed confirmed by Cumber to be the strongest he had faced at the time (UVM7), so that should include V4 since he was implied to be going all out. It's also worth noting that in the same mission, it was implied that UI Omen Goku was able to clash with SS3 Cumber while not being able to 'freely use that technique,' implying that UI Omen ran out (since in the same mission, Goku was only able to activate UI Omen at will).

[Omgzord]

Doesn't Super Hearts takes on everyone "including Jiren" in the game though? Yet the game still hype up Gogeta to be the one to finish him.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If I remember correctly SS Cumber did face Blue Vegeta and Golden Cooler as support. His power was big, but I believe there was a comment on if someone of the CC went all out, he could take him on. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, if I were to scale the whole crew, I would say that SS3 Cumber stands on the same ground as Blue Evolution Vegeta, right below GGA Cumber and Omen Goku. For SS Cumber to be up against two SS4s (implied to be at a disadvantage) and stand a chance. And for the one-step-superior Blues to still believe of his strength as massive.

I actually place SS Cumber at SS Broly level. Many might think of it as a lowball, but it really isn't. 5×SSB.

My point is that SS3 FP Cumber is around 80×Blue imo and the Jiren that he faced was at a 130×Blue level. His max. Blue Fusion is equal with MUI at 150×Blue. V4, going all out is probably around 90×Blue. Enough for him to not be considered an opponent worthy of FP even at max strength.

My head cannon tho

[Omgzord]

You surely came up with those numbers out of nowhere.

SS Gogeta/Vegito >> SSBE Vegeta.

Given how SS Broly and SS Gogeta were equally matched they must have pretty close base, which makes sense with Base Gogeta performing the same feats as Blue Goku "even better" and Ikari Broly transforming into SSJ when he was in Ikari mode thus possibly making his SS form 40 to 50 times stronger than SSB "ignoring his adaptation boost of course" given how his Ikari form was trading blows with SSB Goku.

SS Broly would have massacred SSBKK and SSBE.

[Grand Marshal 1]

You surely came up with those numbers out of nowhere.

SS Gogeta/Vegito >> SSBE Vegeta.

Given how SS Broly and SS Gogeta were equally matched they must have pretty close base, which makes sense with Base Gogeta performing the same feats as Blue Goku "even better" and Ikari Broly transforming into SSJ when he was in Ikari mode thus possibly making his SS form 40 to 50 times stronger than SSB "ignoring his adaptation boost of course" given how his Ikari form was trading blows with SSB Goku.

SS Broly would have massacred SSBKK and SSBE.

Absolutely nothing indicates that SS Broly was 50 times stronger than Ikari. The same way a Great Ape that would revert to Base and go SS wouldn't be that much stronger. Apparently, people believe that he transformed on top of the Great Ape. While it's just the vanilla Super Saiyan.

As for my head cannon, it's the only way for it to work with the established numbers in three show and the apparent power scale.

So why is SS Broly 50 times stronger than Blue and didn't annihilate, Goku, Vegeta and Freeza? Don't tell me about the "techniques" that's a dead horse argument.

[Omgzord]

-Mere multipliers tells you he's 50 times stronger because of the SS form boost.

-Wrong. Broly stacked SS on top of he's Ikari form. We saw him transform into a SS while he was in Ikari, he also retrieved treats from his ikari form like the green aura, body mass, insanity and going berserk. SS Doesn't turn you into a 10-foot behemoth. If he was just a super Saiyan his body would have reverted back to its original size and he had a yellow aura.

This is also supported by SS Broly going toe to toe with SS Gogeta whose base should be Blue level at the bare minimum.

-I would say trying to apply headcanon to a nonsensical scaling is a waste of time IMO.

-He did annihilate them tho? Their attacks had 0 effects and he was cutting through their strongest techniques like a butter.

I know what you will ask:
"If Broly is so much stronger than them why didn't he just one-shot them?" Well, why didn't Jiren one-shot base Goku despite him being stronger than his strongest form? It's PIS and Plot. At least that how I see it.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Oh well, it's all just opinions in the end. It doesn't make sense for that to be the case. I have done scaling of the film before and it made sense without such massive jumps in power. Anyway, not gonna repeat a debate.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys have Frost? Where does he stand in Z?

I re-watched his fight with Piccolo and although the saiyans claimed the green guy had no chance, if it weren't for Frost's cheats, Piccolo would've defeated him while using one hand (spent most of the fight charging his attack, defending himself with just one arm!)

And by the ToP he confessed to be actually weaker than in the U6 tournament.

[Rakurai]

If I remember correctly SS Cumber did face Blue Vegeta and Golden Cooler as support. His power was big, but I believe there was a comment on if someone of the CC went all out, he could take him on. Correct me if I am wrong.

Restrained, base Cumber faced off against Bluegeta and Golden Cooler in UVM2, not SS Cumber. Also no comment was ever said about being to take him on if CC Goku/Vegeta went all out. Goku and Vegeta were in a pinch and had to fuse against an unrestrained, base Cumber.

I think it's pretty clear that the SS4 Xeno duo were superior to the SSB duo by the end of the Prison Planet arc, since we had a clear confirmation that they were equal to SS Cumber whom were out of the CC individual duo's league already.

You can find the translations are on my signature for reference, and I always try to stick to the original Japanese meanings as faithfully as possible (except for the derogatives/expletives since those are really flexible in general) so there should be no misconceptions.

[Sora Saiyan]

I re-watched his fight with Piccolo and although the saiyans claimed the green guy had no chance, if it weren't for Frost's cheats, Piccolo would've defeated him while using one hand (spent most of the fight charging his attack, defending himself with just one arm!)

Ya know, this is something I kept on repeating when we first had that Piccolo Vs Frost fight, but people didn't really pay any heed. We know Frost was meant to be stronger, but Toei did a terrible job displaying it. Piccolo should've just decked him with his free hand since he wasnt really having issues stopping his attacks with the one. Piccolo looks stupid when you go by the showing, but by the statements we know how it's meant to be.

[wolflonnie]

I re-watched his fight with Piccolo and although the saiyans claimed the green guy had no chance, if it weren't for Frost's cheats, Piccolo would've defeated him while using one hand (spent most of the fight charging his attack, defending himself with just one arm!)

Ya know, this is something I kept on repeating when we first had that Piccolo Vs Frost fight, but people didn't really pay any heed. We know Frost was meant to be stronger, but Toei did a terrible job displaying it. Piccolo should've just decked him with his free hand since he wasnt really having issues stopping his attacks with the one. Piccolo looks stupid when you go by the showing, but by the statements we know how it's meant to be.

I partially disagree. I think that if Piccolo tried to challenge Frost head-on, Frost would've overpowered him. The fact that Piccolo was defending himself mitigated the incoming damages, while preparing an attack strong enough to defeat his opponent.
Although I do agree that showing a direct attack inflicting important damage would've improved this idea.

[Zamasu55]

In Heroes what is stronger between Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta?

Probably Gogeta.

Gogeta by a long shot. He’s above zeno according to the anime at least. The scaling is fucked up because not even SSjB kkx20 Vegito, nor xeno Vegito SSj4 were able to best base Cumber. Then MUI Goku casually clapped SSj3 Cumber, and Jiren did that too. Then Hearts pretty much started toying with all of them, and then Gogeta SSjB showed up and clapped hearts. The difference in power is so massive and inconsistent, it’s outrageously ridiculous to take seriously.

The English translations for the recent episode are... odd to say the least. I'd not trust them.

[Rakurai]

Doesn't Super Hearts takes on everyone "including Jiren" in the game though? Yet the game still hype up Gogeta to be the one to finish him.

Regular Hearts, Zamasu, and FP SS3 Cumber all went up against FP Jiren and couldn't take him down in UVM7.

Hearts recently became Super Hearts absorbed the Universe seed and it's implied he's about to face UI Goku, Hit, and Jiren. Not sure how it's going to lead up to Gogeta or whether Gogeta is stronger than UI Goku or not. We'll have to wait until UVM12 is released to find out.

[Omgzord]

Probably Gogeta.

Gogeta by a long shot. He’s above zeno according to the anime at least. The scaling is fucked up because not even SSjB kkx20 Vegito, nor xeno Vegito SSj4 were able to best base Cumber. Then MUI Goku casually clapped SSj3 Cumber, and Jiren did that too. Then Hearts pretty much started toying with all of them, and then Gogeta SSjB showed up and clapped hearts. The difference in power is so massive and inconsistent, it’s outrageously ridiculous to take seriously.

The English translations for the recent episode are... odd to say the least. I'd not trust them.

The translations are bad. Hearts does says that Gogeta could take out the Omni king with his power though.

[Zamasu55]

Gogeta by a long shot. He’s above zeno according to the anime at least. The scaling is fucked up because not even SSjB kkx20 Vegito, nor xeno Vegito SSj4 were able to best base Cumber. Then MUI Goku casually clapped SSj3 Cumber, and Jiren did that too. Then Hearts pretty much started toying with all of them, and then Gogeta SSjB showed up and clapped hearts. The difference in power is so massive and inconsistent, it’s outrageously ridiculous to take seriously.

The English translations for the recent episode are... odd to say the least. I'd not trust them.

The translations are bad. Hearts does says that Gogeta could take out the Omni king with his power though.

I don't know, it's probably a lie since it was stated that nobody can defeat Zeno.