Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:43 pm

Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:31 pm
Your post was ambiguous. You didn’t talk about the manga and the anime separately, you just directly made a statement about Gogeta, Vegeto and Gotenks by using an anime fact.

But this misunderstanding between us is not important as long as we agree about the fact that we don’t know anything about Base Vegeto’s level compared to Buuhan’s in the manga.
No offense...but it should be a little obvious that I'm talking about the anime when I reference Base Vegetto beating Boohan. We all know it never happened in the manga so there's no reason to believe that I'm mixing up the anime & manga. Again, not insulting you...but everyone on Kanzenshuu's "in-universe discussion" knows the differences between the anime & manga, to my knowledge anyway.

Base Vegetto in the original manga run cannot accurately be deciphered but if its anything like how it was against manga Merged Zamasu, it gives him a boost that makes Gotenks' look weak. Maybe not to the exact degree of the anime but somewhere under half.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:00 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:36 pm
Do you think Super's anime being deemed an "official continuation" legitimises the former anime of the classic series, theherodjl? The idea comes with some pretty bold, if not flagrant ramifications due to the number of creative licenses used throughout it.

Strictly from the lens of the anime, Vegetto shouldn't even require SSJ in that event. A standard Kaioken x2 burst would be enough to utterly humiliate Buuhan. Well, there's also the idea of Buuhan himself not fully unleashing his own power until after his opponent had already transformed.
IIRC, Boohan in the anime does state something along the lines of "Even with what has transpired, you cannot defeat me." or something like that just prior to Vegetto transforming. Boo isn't exactly saying that he's given it his all but its important to note that Vegetto was in base up until then, having not said or implied anything about going SSJ and then Boo seemed genuinely surprised that he could. Boo was probably confident in his regen since it had undone everything Vegetto had inflicted and thus he believed it would outlast Vegetto.
Why Vegetto goes SSJ is simply to push Boo into total desperation, that's why Vegetto allowed Boo's tentacle to remain because he had planned on Boo attempting to absorb him.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:14 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:43 pm
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:31 pm
Your post was ambiguous. You didn’t talk about the manga and the anime separately, you just directly made a statement about Gogeta, Vegeto and Gotenks by using an anime fact.

But this misunderstanding between us is not important as long as we agree about the fact that we don’t know anything about Base Vegeto’s level compared to Buuhan’s in the manga.
No offense...but it should be a little obvious that I'm talking about the anime when I reference Base Vegetto beating Boohan. We all know it never happened in the manga so there's no reason to believe that I'm mixing up the anime & manga. Again, not insulting you...but everyone on Kanzenshuu's "in-universe discussion" knows the differences between the anime & manga, to my knowledge anyway.

Base Vegetto in the original manga run cannot accurately be deciphered but if its anything like how it was against manga Merged Zamasu, it gives him a boost that makes Gotenks' look weak. Maybe not to the exact degree of the anime but somewhere under half.
If it was so obvious, I should have been the only one to say it’s only an anime thing. But I wasn’t.

You posted in a thread about Vegeto’s level compared to Gogeta’s and the thread title doesn’t specifically mention the manga or the anime. On top of that, you responded to someone who was most likely talking about the manga. So if you talk about the manga and the anime in your post without any clear separation and conclude your post by saying "Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks because Vegeto powned Buuhan" without any further clarification, it’s perfectly normal to misinterpret your post. And when it comes from someone who considers the anime continuity to be as canon as the manga continuity, it’s even more confusing.

So yes, it wasn’t obvious that your weren’t actually mixing up the anime with the manga. And even if I’m new here, I know most fans know the difference between the manga and the anime. That doesn’t make your initial post any less confusing, as evidenced by the fact an old member misinterpreted your post as well.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:28 pm

Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:14 pm
If it was so obvious, I should have been the only one to say it’s only an anime thing. But I wasn’t.

You posted in a thread about Vegeto’s level compared to Gogeta’s and the thread title doesn’t specifically mention the manga or the anime. On top of that, you responded to someone who was most likely talking about the manga. So if you talk about the manga and the anime in your post without any clear separation and conclude your post by saying "Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks because Vegeto powned Buuhan" without any further clarification, it’s perfectly normal to misinterpret your post. And when it comes from someone who considers the anime continuity to be as canon as the manga continuity, it’s even more confusing.

So yes, it wasn’t obvious that your weren’t actually mixing up the anime with the manga. And even if I’m new here, I know most fans know the difference between the manga and the anime. That doesn’t make your initial post any less confusing, as evidenced by the fact an old member misinterpreted your post as well.
Now you're simply arguing with me for the sake of arguing. We've both established that I was referencing the anime yet you continue to spin this wheel. Who else is having a problem with this??? So far, its been you who has an issue...and no one else. Its a rather silly, semantic issue to put such effort into and not something I care enough about to continue discussing.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:24 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:28 pm
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:14 pm
If it was so obvious, I should have been the only one to say it’s only an anime thing. But I wasn’t.

You posted in a thread about Vegeto’s level compared to Gogeta’s and the thread title doesn’t specifically mention the manga or the anime. On top of that, you responded to someone who was most likely talking about the manga. So if you talk about the manga and the anime in your post without any clear separation and conclude your post by saying "Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks because Vegeto powned Buuhan" without any further clarification, it’s perfectly normal to misinterpret your post. And when it comes from someone who considers the anime continuity to be as canon as the manga continuity, it’s even more confusing.

So yes, it wasn’t obvious that your weren’t actually mixing up the anime with the manga. And even if I’m new here, I know most fans know the difference between the manga and the anime. That doesn’t make your initial post any less confusing, as evidenced by the fact an old member misinterpreted your post as well.
Now you're simply arguing with me for the sake of arguing. We've both established that I was referencing the anime yet you continue to spin this wheel. Who else is having a problem with this??? So far, its been you who has an issue...and no one else. Its a rather silly, semantic issue to put such effort into and not something I care enough about to continue discussing.
I wasn't arguing for the sake of arguing, I just clarified why your initial post was confusing, that's all. When I tried to "calm things down" (well that's probably an overstatement since the discussion was obviously not that tense) a little bit by saying the misunderstanding wasn't important as long as we agree about Base Vegeto vs Buuhan being irrelevant regarding the manga, you chose to keep arguing about the misunderstanding. And you practically implied I was stupid for not getting you were only talking about the anime.

Now if you want my totally honest opinion, I think you really thought Base Vegeto powned Buuhan in the manga. Then when we pointed out to you it was an anime thing only, you chose to act as if you knew out of pride. Hence the unnecessary hostility.

I'm just gonna leave it at that and I'm sorry if I annoyed you, that wasn't my intention.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
I'm sorry...but no, this is incredibly wrong.
As Herms' examination shows, there is no discernable difference established between Vegetto & Gogeta when it comes to strength. If the guides or even the manga ever attempted to peg Gogeta as being within the same range as Gotenks then this simply didn't happen. All sources either imply or outright state "Gogeta = Vegetto" so the claim of "Gogeta >=Gotenks" is absolutely inaccurate and an example of fandom misconceptions continuing to live on.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
the only thing that herms did was translated the guides but I never affirm anything about it
I do not take the guides because in many cases they are very contradictory like that guide that said that goku ssj3 = super buu which is a lie anyway I rely on facts .... and actually yes
in the Fusion Reborn movie, Goku SSJ3 can keep a fight with janemba but once he draws the sword and other magical abilities the demon surpasses goku however with that we check that janemba did not have a level so different from goku ssj3

gogeta ssj easily defeated a villain who has the level of goku ssj3 is not the case of super buu gohan that far exceeds goku ssj3 and was not an opponent worthy to vegito ssj
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan. "
you don't have a real test that suggests that"
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm
Goku and Vegeta are infinitely stronger than Goten and Trunks, that’s why their fusion is much more powerful. So whether it’s Gogeta SSJ or Vegeto SSJ, both would wreck SSJ3 Gotenks.
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
Vegeta considering Trunks to be a good training partner means little, he totally could have easily killed Trunks in an actual fight.
they are not or rather they were not ...

Vegeta ssj is so pressured by trunks ssj in his training that he loses control and is forced to attack with full force
Image
a trunks who didn't know his father was going to attack him
Image
Image
Gohan is worried when he learns about the power of children since he thinks that they could soon overcome him
Image
Android 18 literally trembles when Trunks attacks her with his "weak" attack
Image
Image


no, without ssj2 vegeta could not defeat them easily could surely from experience and skill in power they were not so different

even toyotaro made this clear with this scene
Image

keep in mind that vegeta and trunks cell games could barely face a cell jr but children face 7 of them

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:34 am

Aren't the Juniors just playing around? Their expressions seem to indicate that.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:34 am
Aren't the Juniors just playing around? Their expressions seem to indicate that.
they playing with the humans ... and yet humans are not able to defend against a cell jr while vegeta, trunks and piccolo were able to face a single Cell Jr but could never with 2 or 3 at the same time was very dfficult .
the children together with difficulty are able to defend themselves from 7 cell jr content or not ... is a better feat than their parents in cell games because there is no proof that cell jr are using 1% since they are not able to defeat them with numerical advantage

Image

it’s good for fans to love gogeta but honestly it’s because of its popularity that now toei wants to “sell it” as stronger or equal when it was never proved before and really was the opposite

It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:25 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm
It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker
Probably. But you're forgetting one crucial point: Xeno Goku is a Goku from a point after the Dragon Ball GT events. He is not from during its events and much less close and/or during the events of Dragon Ball Super. This is a major factor to be taken into consideration and is a very reasonable explanation to put Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as "equals" (though it is a fact in the arcade continuity that the Goku from Dragon Ball Super is still stronger than Xeno Goku).

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:12 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:25 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm
It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker
Probably. But you're forgetting one crucial point: Xeno Goku is a Goku from a point after the Dragon Ball GT events. He is not from during its events and much less close and/or during the events of Dragon Ball Super. This is a major factor to be taken into consideration and is a very reasonable explanation to put Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as "equals" (though it is a fact in the arcade continuity that the Goku from Dragon Ball Super is still stronger than Xeno Goku).
surely and anyway I talked about the transformation but not about the character I did not say that Goku GT and Goku Xeno are the same in fact is not goku in their childish form, vegeta does not suffer baldness and that pan does not recognize them should be obvious
I understand that too he live the events of jamenba and other movies but again as such in the video game of that continuity does not show any feat similar to that of Goku god vs beerus the only thing he has is "Power scaling" for facing Goku SSB in the battle

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm
It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker
You mean by fans. Because there is no official statement that ever compares the two transformations.

Don’t confuse fan theory scaling with what the series intends for them.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:57 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:12 pm
I talked about the transformation but not about the character
You can't take the time placement out of question, though. Yes, Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is put as roughly "equal" but that is only the case exactly because Goku and Xeno Goku is at least one decade apart from each other. To have a definitive answer, we need to have both Gokus from the same time period. Given that the arcade establishes that Goku is stronger than Xeno Goku, I'm pretty sure we already know what is the definitive answer.
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:12 pm
I did not say that Goku GT and Goku Xeno are the same in fact is not goku in their childish form, and that pan does not recognize them should be obvious
I didn't say you said that, but it is the case nonetheless. And where doesn't Pan recognize them?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:18 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm
It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker
You mean by fans. Because there is no official statement that ever compares the two transformations.

Don’t confuse fan theory scaling with what the series intends for them.
uh .. no, i'm talking about feats and statements from both official series this are not fan theory scaling are facts based on what each series showed what the screenwriters and author wanted to express and that everyone interprets it as what it is ...

yes .. that "ova" when goku, luffy and toriko fight have any purpose apart from generating money? I hope you understand what I mean they can sell you to a character with any idea they want but that does not mean that this was the original approach with which it was used especially with characters with different continuities
Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:57 pm
You can't take the time placement out of question, though. Yes, Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is put as roughly "equal" but that is only the case exactly because Goku and Xeno Goku is at least one decade apart from each other. To have a definitive answer, we need to have both Gokus from the same time period. Given that the arcade establishes that Goku is stronger than Xeno Goku, I'm pretty sure we already know what is the definitive answer.
I never said I didn't have a justification .. "other Goku is the key" but really goku xeno could have had any other form like the ikari if it was the ssj4 it was more for commercial reasons and popularity
Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:57 pm
I didn't say you said that, but it is the case nonetheless. And where doesn't Pan recognize them?
I think I read it in the heroes manga

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:46 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:18 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:16 pm
It is the same in DBH and the comparison of SSJB = SSJ4 when by facts (clash of fists) in respective series is very unbalanced but the SSJ4 has fans so if they want to sell to Xeno Goku this can not be weaker
You mean by fans. Because there is no official statement that ever compares the two transformations.

Don’t confuse fan theory scaling with what the series intends for them.
uh .. no, i'm talking about feats and statements from both official series this are not fan theory scaling are facts based on what each series showed what the screenwriters and author wanted to express and that everyone interprets it as what it is ...

yes .. that "ova" when goku, luffy and toriko fight have any purpose apart from generating money? I hope you understand what I mean they can sell you to a character with any idea they want but that does not mean that this was the original approach with which it was used especially with characters with different continuities
So basically fan theory scaling. Because I, for one, do not believe that writers/producers/Toriyama go in with the mindset "let's make them destroy the universe to show that they are beyond the likes of GT" "hey we need to show SSB is stronger than SS4" "hey we need to make XGoku triple deluxe dynamax multiversal" "hey let's make SSB is 1 octillion times base" like some silly fans like to spew as 'fact.'

Comparing GT and Super is like comparing apples and oranges. They are two different continuities with their own character cast, two different scales and inconsistencies that lead to even further fallacies if trying to compare them to one another. They are not sequels or prequels of one another as far as official statements are concerned. It is like the silly Goku vs Superman debates online.

And for the record, the SDBH story also has to go through Shueisha, the main DB publishing company, as well as Toriyama to some degree.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:17 am

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm
Because there is no official statement that ever compares the two transformations.
Finally found it. Xenoverse 2 compares them.
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:18 pm
I think I read it in the heroes manga
There's nothing in the manga hinting that. And even if it was the case, there's nothing of sorts in the arcade.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:19 am

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:17 am
Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:29 pm
Because there is no official statement that ever compares the two transformations.
Finally found it. Xenoverse 2 compares them.
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:18 pm
I think I read it in the heroes manga
There's nothing in the manga even hinting that. And even if it was the case, there's nothing of sorts in the arcade.
I've had this discussion before. That's a Photoshopped picture by some presumably pro-SSB fan or troll. Hence why it's not in English.

I assume you play XV2, you should really confirm it for yourself.

Edit: ALTHOUGH, there is the DLC expansion pack of Fu's time traveling shenanigans that does do a SS4 RoF Goku vs SSB mentor Goku comparison. And the most we get out of it is that each of them think that they are stronger than the other, so still unclear. Furthermore, SS4 RoF Vegeta says that this is what it feels like to have the 'power of a god'' even tho he has the wrong form (he assumed that was the form they were training towards).
Last edited by Rakurai on Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:34 am

Grimlock, since you disabled private responses:
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:26 am
My apologies if I offended you, I didn't realize you were the one who provided it! :oops:

The first time someone showed it to me, somebody else provided me with the English dialogue of that statement and it was also SS3. So I would assume the SS4 part was a mistake at the time on behalf of the developers. It certainly makes more sense since it was Gotenks who said that, and why would Gotenks have anything to do with SS4.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:45 am

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:46 pm
So basically fan theory scaling. Because I, for one, do not believe that writers/producers/Toriyama go in with the mindset "let's make them destroy the universe to show that they are beyond the likes of GT" "hey we need to show SSB is stronger than SS4" "hey we need to make XGoku triple deluxe dynamax multiversal" "hey let's make SSB is 1 octillion times base" like some silly fans like to spew as 'fact.'

Comparing GT and Super is like comparing apples and oranges. They are two different continuities with their own character cast, two different scales and inconsistencies that lead to even further fallacies if trying to compare them to one another. They are not sequels or prequels of one another as far as official statements are concerned. It is like the silly Goku vs Superman debates online.

And for the record, the SDBH story also has to go through Shueisha, the main DB publishing company, as well as Toriyama to some degree.
just enough that the author or screenwriter wants to express the power to make the comparison ...
if frieza is a planet buster in namek it's because the author wanted it that way
if cell is solar system buster it is because it gives a statement about it
if beerus and goku are capable of destroying the universe in story, it is because the screenwriter and the author express the power it that way at the same time they put limits on their character

no, it is not necessary that there is an official comparison when you have both official series with their limits and powers already clarified

they have different logics I agree but it does not mean that a result cannot be demonstrated based on both stories than different or not when being part of the same franchise they take as reference the original manga where easily verifiable by the feat that showed such character.

the same author has said he doesn't know DBH

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:53 am

Still making assumptions and using the classic fandom logic AKA destructive feat logic.

If you don't have any official comparisons or statements from someone who does have that authority, that put one above the other, then you don't have any right to say what the writers or series intends and what doesn't.

Meanwhile, SDBH still portrays the two transformations as roughly equal, and implying that two SS4 incarnations are stronger than two SSB incarnations. You can take it or leave it, accept or reject it, and nothing will change about the DB series, but at the end no fan's word or theory scaling is taken to be greater than a story that's actually approved by Shueisha and consulted on by Toriyama.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:14 am

the guides can also be official and verified by the author but that does not mean this can't be wrong

Goku ssj3 > Super buu? in any case it is easier to take facts of its respective story

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