How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

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How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by OmegaKing » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am

He went from kicked Super Buu’s ass in base form to being forced into Super Saiyan by someone only marginally stronger than Captain Ginyu, and even then 1st Form Frieza recked him. Like damn 4 years of slacking can set you back 2 sagas of power ups and training?

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:38 am

That 1st form Freeza was far stronger than he was on Namek.
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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Kagari » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:45 pm

Freeza caught him off guard. There wasn't even a fight.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:47 pm

they wanted to make Goku and Vegeta look better

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:09 pm

OmegaKing wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am
He went from kicked Super Buu’s ass in base form
You mean Ultimate form.
OmegaKing wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am
to being forced into Super Saiyan by someone only marginally stronger than Captain Ginyu, and even then 1st Form Frieza recked him. Like damn 4 years of slacking can set you back 2 sagas of power ups and training?
Gohan is known for extreme power-ups, it's only fair that he loses power just as easily. There would be no point in keeping all the power if he won't fight.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:55 pm

Kagari wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:45 pm
Freeza caught him off guard. There wasn't even a fight.
1st Form Freeza is still stronger than SS Gohan.

Anyway we do know that Ultimate Gohan is a transformation and he couldnt access it at the time so he simply was a regular Boo arc Super Saiyan in RoF. Maybe even weaker than that.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Lionel » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:10 am

You would think that if Gohan had deteriorated to the point that he was uncertain of his ability to transform into just a regular Super Saiyan that Goten and Trunks's comparability to the Z-fighters on Namek would be called into question, nevermind Super Saiyan or fighting anyone like #18, as they don't appear to be training much either.

It's not like Gohan had deteriorated all too severely after 7 years in Z. Super appears to accepting the idea of this rapid decline after less than that amount of time, though. Was Gohan's profession and newborn child stressing him to the point that his physicality and power were suffering?

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:35 am

Gohan was still stronger than Piccolo, who was likely comparable to Perfect Cell at the time of Frieza's arrival. There was a decline, but RoF Gohan was more comparable to Buu saga Gohan than anything else.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by OmegaKing » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:09 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:35 am
Gohan was still stronger than Piccolo, who was likely comparable to Perfect Cell at the time of Frieza's arrival. There was a decline, but RoF Gohan was more comparable to Buu saga Gohan than anything else.
I call bullshit. Tagoma manhandled Piccolo and he wasn’t nearly on par with Perfect Cell.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:28 am

RoF Gohan wasn’t even sure he could handle ssj whole Cell arc Gohan had ssj mastered to the point where it was his new base.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:50 am

Then explain Piccolo being weaker than him. Doesn't make any sense, at all. Piccolo constantly trains.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am

I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:35 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am
I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.
Maybe, but then it's shown Piccolo flat out overpowering SSJ2 Gohan while training.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:40 pm

I blame the books. Instead of making him smarter, they made him weaker. Books are dangerous in the DB world.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:38 pm

Forget Z, in BoG Gohan still had his ultimate form (while the poster had him as SS), and in RoF he is not sure if he can turn SS. That is one year after BoG, actually it may even be less than that. Crazy.

Unless the duties of fatherhood greatly diminishes the strenght of the hybrids. Like being up all night long dealing with a crying baby(although Pan looks so sweet), then going to work without any sleep, cranky all the time, dealing with teenagers (I think Gohan is a teacher or something in DBS), then coming home and the cycle repeats every night for months. Real-life difficulties of being a working father, lack of sleep, lack of training and stress.

But Gohan's house was later portrayed like The Waltons, so probably it was just another case of Toriyama not giving a damn.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:35 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am
I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.
Maybe, but then it's shown Piccolo flat out overpowering SSJ2 Gohan while training.
See, that's actually what made me realise it. That happened during the Tournament of Power recruitment, and it was the first time Piccolo had shown any feats that put him over Cell. Considering how much he trains and how high the ceiling had gotten by then, it felt...overdue.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Lionel » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:46 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:35 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am
I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.
Maybe, but then it's shown Piccolo flat out overpowering SSJ2 Gohan while training.
See, that's actually what made me realise it. That happened during the Tournament of Power recruitment, and it was the first time Piccolo had shown any feats that put him over Cell. Considering how much he trains and how high the ceiling had gotten by then, it felt...overdue.
Definitely true. If the mental image training in the manga was anything to go by, Goku had gone from burning himself out against Fat and Kid Buu in his strongest form to determinedly charging him with just Super Saiyan in just 3 short years of interspersed solitary sparring while tilling the land at his local family farm.

Piccolo may not have used the ROSAT during that period but we know that he wasn't burdened with the same familial responsibilities as Goku so he could train more fervently than the Saiyan. Adding on to that, the upper atmospheric scarcity of oxygen had been a condition of the lookout existing as far back as the end of the Piccolo Daimou arc. Piccolo may not be a human but the documented effects of long term high altitude living include things like stronger lung capacity, increased cerebral blood flow, and a more acute response to exercise. Let's not forget Piccolo also works out in weighted training gear as well. Did Toriyama just not research these things because it sounds to me like Piccolo would have been training more rigorously and efficiently than Goku was. At the very least he should have surpassed the Super Saiyans once again, if not completely overtake their SSJ2 forms and perhaps find himself in a not too distant gap from SSJ3.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:14 am

Lionel wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:10 am
You would think that if Gohan had deteriorated to the point that he was uncertain of his ability to transform into just a regular Super Saiyan that Goten and Trunks's comparability to the Z-fighters on Namek would be called into question, nevermind Super Saiyan or fighting anyone like #18, as they don't appear to be training much either.

It's not like Gohan had deteriorated all too severely after 7 years in Z. Super appears to accepting the idea of this rapid decline after less than that amount of time, though. Was Gohan's profession and newborn child stressing him to the point that his physicality and power were suffering?
Well, Gohan is already an adult while Goten and Trunks are still kids so I think they are fine on that front.

I just rationalize Gohan simply losing the potency of his Ultimnate form as the years went by. I don't have the Ultimate Gohan in BoG arc as strong as the one from the Boo arc for example. By the time of the RoF arc he simply lost the form.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by wolflonnie » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:10 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:28 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:35 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am
I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.
Maybe, but then it's shown Piccolo flat out overpowering SSJ2 Gohan while training.
See, that's actually what made me realise it. That happened during the Tournament of Power recruitment, and it was the first time Piccolo had shown any feats that put him over Cell. Considering how much he trains and how high the ceiling had gotten by then, it felt...overdue.
True. Then again Piccolo simply could have an hard time getting stronger or something.
Point is, there is no way he became weaker compared to his Cell saga self (which was around Semi-Perfect Cell). Gohan is flat-out stronger than Piccolo in RoF, if I'm not mistaken both in base and SSJ forms, so it's not like he became that much weaker, to the point of being on the level of a Namek-saga fighter. RoF Gohan should be around Cell's level.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by emperior » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am

I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
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