How would you compare Dragon Ball’s revival to something like Star Wars?

[WittyUsername]

The Last Jedi did in fact have plenty to say about the subject, not only about war, but about Star Wars itself, and while execution of the new trilogy as a whole has been lackluster, it's ultimately about legacy and whether it's our choices or genetics that makes us heroes.

Did it really have that much to say? For all the talk about how “different” TLJ supposedly was, it still rehashed much of the same beats as TESB and RotJ. Sure, it offered some unexpected twists, but the only reason those twists were unexpected to begin with was because they were so mundane and boring that people were expecting more.

To be clear, I actually did initially think that TLJ was the best of the Disney Star Wars movies, but in hindsight, I think that’s mostly just because I was never really invested in the story of the sequel trilogy to begin with, so I didn’t particularly mind the film’s lack of respect for J.J. Abrams’ mystery box approach. Still, I can’t really deny that it put Lucasfilm in a difficult position for Episode IX, since it left behind no real hook.

With the sole exception of Battle of the Gods as an unexpected treat/love letter to fans Dragon Ball really really should have ended in 1995.

Pretty much my feeling, and has been mentioned here over the years, BoG could serve as a great end to the story. Goku is a character constantly looking for a challenge and the next hill to climb. What better end for him is there to discover there's a whole bunch of universes for him to find levels of strength he didn't even dream of?

I think BoG could’ve served as a great end to the story if it hadn’t been for the manga’s epilogue. The truth of the matter is that the actual conclusion of the series is currently still Goku flying off to train the reincarnation of some guy he fought 10 years ago. As much as I like BoG, it kind of deflates the purpose of that ending, though not to the extent of the rest of Super.

[ABED]

Yes, it was a film with quite a bit on its mind. It didn't lazily rehash beats from previous movies. To the extent that it did, RJ did it with a twist. He likes playing with genre and genre tropes. The twists weren't boring. Rey's lack of special heritage (spoiler, little did we know) was a brilliant twist. It's not done for the sake of a twist, it's brilliant because it doesn't let her or the audience off easy. She has to find her own place. If people were expecting something more, and by more, I assume her being connected to someone we already know, that's on them. Another brilliant bit that the film had to say is about failure often being the best teacher. That's a wonderful message to give the audience.

I also don't buy the idea that Rian's twists left nothing to do in episode 9. The purpose of a second act is not to just waste time.

I've come to respect the idea of writing by the seat of one's pants more than some elaborately plotted out plan. Toriyama did it well for years. It's the execution of the moments that are the magic.

As much as I like BoG, it kind of deflates the purpose of that ending

While true, I prefer it to Z's ending, which I've come to like, but still don't love. If this steps on that, but works better, I don't care. I'd rather a good conclusion than strict adherence to canon. By the way, I fell the same way about Star Wars. "the canon" doesn't really matter.

My view on a lot of this stuff has softened over time. While it would be my preference to end Star Wars films, it's like pizza. Most pizza, even bland ones, are still enjoyable. That's all I ask for. If I get more than that, great. I don't quite feel the same way towards DB for the simple reason that there's nowhere else to go with it.

[MasenkoHA]

In truth there are “multiple endings” for Dragon Ball that work to varying degrees. I like the ending for the Boo arc but if someone else doesn’t there’s Battle of Gods or GT to say nothing of the 23rd Budokai or the Namek arc as potential endings that can work if you’re not satisfied with where the story goes. (And I know ending at Cell is popular among the fandom, I strongly disagree on it being a good ending)

Shit most television shows typically lose me after about 2-4 seasons anyways.

[ABED]

In truth there are “multiple endings” for Dragon Ball that work to varying degrees. I like the ending for the Boo arc but if someone else doesn’t there’s Battle of Gods or GT to say nothing of the 23rd Budokai or the Namek arc as potential endings that can work if you’re not satisfied with where the story goes. (And I know ending at Cell is popular among the fandom, I strongly disagree on it being a good ending)

Shit most television shows typically lose me after about 2-4 seasons anyways.

I understand why, but I still think you're being overly harsh towards stuff that goes longer. I agree that most shows that go beyond 4 or 5 seasons are making a mistake, but even many of those shows are still enjoyable even in later years, just not AS good. Plenty of shows also have rebound years.

I just thought of a quote that is very fitting to your post, "If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story."

[MasenkoHA]

There’s absolutely stuff that can be good for more than 3-4 years. Buffy is a good example. Even though season 3 was my favorite season (though season 6 comes close) and season 7 was very hit or miss it had a solid run for 7 years and ended before it could take any sort of notable decline in quality. But in general most shows tend to have a drop after the third or fourth season.

[WittyUsername]

In truth there are “multiple endings” for Dragon Ball that work to varying degrees. I like the ending for the Boo arc but if someone else doesn’t there’s Battle of Gods or GT to say nothing of the 23rd Budokai or the Namek arc as potential endings that can work if you’re not satisfied with where the story goes. (And I know ending at Cell is popular among the fandom, I strongly disagree on it being a good ending)

Shit most television shows typically lose me after about 2-4 seasons anyways.

From an emotional standpoint, I would definitely say that GT is the best ending for the series. I don’t mind Toriyama’s ending, but it does come across as less definitive and somewhat random. Still, the ending of the manga is definitely more appropriate to Toriyama’s Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

True, but my point isn't about the show's quality dropping, it's that dropping doesn't mean it's bad, though I do think even if shows decline in quality by a lot, but end strong, like The Office and Scrubs (season 9 doesn't count), that can make up for a lot. Conversely, a bad or even just mediocre ending can ruin my feelings towards otherwise good shows.

but it does come across as less definitive and somewhat random.

I kinda see your point about its randomness, but only to a point. The story didn't feel like it was driving to that kind of ending, but Goku leaving feeling excited because there are more mountains to climb is thematically fitting, even if the execution is shaky.

[MasenkoHA]

In truth there are “multiple endings” for Dragon Ball that work to varying degrees. I like the ending for the Boo arc but if someone else doesn’t there’s Battle of Gods or GT to say nothing of the 23rd Budokai or the Namek arc as potential endings that can work if you’re not satisfied with where the story goes. (And I know ending at Cell is popular among the fandom, I strongly disagree on it being a good ending)

Shit most television shows typically lose me after about 2-4 seasons anyways.

From an emotional standpoint, I would definitely say that GT is the best ending for the series. I don’t mind Toriyama’s ending, but it does come across as less definitive and somewhat random. Still, the ending of the manga is definitely more appropriate to Toriyama’s Dragon Ball.

GT was, arguably, a good ending for the anime which made Goku more heroic and paternal than the manga (not to the extent of the Funimation dub but definitely more than the manga) it’s not my preferred ending but I’m glad it was there for people not satisfied with the manga’s ending


I don’t think the manga/Z’s ending was that random. Goku was always looking for stronger opponents to test his own strength. He found one in Oob. Or rather he found one in Majin Boo and wished for him to be reincarnated so he could have the ultimate opponent.

The story began with Goku leaving the mountains to train himself and become stronger and the story ends with Goku finding someone to train to give him the ultimate battle and potentially become his successor. Much like how he was a student of Grandpa Gohan, Roshi, Karin, and Kaio he had taken on his own student.

Conversely, a bad or even just mediocre ending can ruin my feelings towards otherwise good shows.
.

Smallville comes to mind. Where the series finale takes a giant dump on Lex’s character arc and Lex and Clark’s journey thus retroactively ruining the whole show for me

[Kataphrut]

I think the lesson to be learned from both is that if you are going to resurrect old franchises, your best bet is to take it in a new direction. Simply repackaging the same old ideas has a short shelf-life- even if people enjoy it at the time, they're not going to look back on it as fondly in hindsight. We saw this with Star Wars- everybody loved the Force Awakens when it first came out because hey, new Star Wars, and it's like the old ones instead of the prequels. But in less than a year's time the adrenaline rush wore off and now it's mainly remembered for being fun rip-off of A New Hope.

I reckon the same thing will happen on a larger scale with Rise of Skywalker- it hobbled itself trying to squeeze in as much fanservice as possible and it's already looking to be the worst-received since the prequels. If we follow the trend a Force Awakens, I'd say within six months, even people who enjoyed the fanservice are going to look back on it and cringe. By contrast, for all it's divisiveness, Last Jedi is probably going to be remembered the fondest of the trilogy for being the most unique. That's certainly how I feel, though I never got the hate that movie received to begin with.

It's hard to draw a direct comparison with modern Dragon Ball, because ironically enough some of it's best results have been the things that sounded hackneyed on paper- Goku Black, bringing back Freeza a second time and canonising Broly are the three that spring to mind.

[Mister_Popo]

Well, i still haven't seen that last SW-movie, not because of the negative critics, but i'm simply not motivated anymore after the Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. Maybe in a bored moment when it has come out on Blu-ray i'll watch it. But i'm definitely not hyped for it. In contrast to other people, not quite had that same problem with the new DB-movies or Super. I guess it's somehow personal.

I do however like the Mandalorian, that dares to explore other aspects of the SW-universe compared to the extented Skywalker-saga, which feels forced.

[ABED]

The nostalgia drug is not having as potent an effect on SW anymore than it has with DB. I have no idea how popular the revival has been, but my god that Broly movie made some bank. I don't get it.

[WittyUsername]

The nostalgia drug is not having as potent an effect on SW anymore than it has with DB. I have no idea how popular the revival has been, but my god that Broly movie made some bank. I don't get it.

In the case of Star Wars, the nostalgia drug worked out incredibly well for TFA. To this day, it’s currently the highest grossing movie at the North American box office. It was really a perfect storm. The nostalgia factor for Star Wars seems to pretty much have run out at this point, but as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, I think there are a number of factors for why it’s still going strong.

For one, the anime community seems to be bigger than ever at this point. For another, modern Dragon Ball has done a pretty good job of maintaining the status quo that people are familiar with. Unlike the Star Wars sequel trilogy, which killed off beloved characters like Han and Luke, modern Dragon Ball has avoided doing anything that might alienate a large number of longtime fans. They even brought back Freeza as a recurring villain, like something out of an 80s Saturday morning cartoon, which is probably smart from a marketing standpoint. Lastly, as far as the Broly movie is concerned, many of us probably underestimated just how much people were hyped about seeing Broly and Gogeta becoming “canon”.

[ABED]

The nostalgia drug is not having as potent an effect on SW anymore than it has with DB. I have no idea how popular the revival has been, but my god that Broly movie made some bank. I don't get it.

In the case of Star Wars, the nostalgia drug worked out incredibly well for TFA. To this day, it’s currently the highest grossing movie at the North American box office. It was really a perfect storm. The nostalgia factor for Star Wars seems to pretty much have run out at this point, but as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, I think there are a number of factors for why it’s still going strong.

For one, the anime community seems to be bigger than ever at this point. For another, modern Dragon Ball has done a pretty good job of maintaining the status quo that people are familiar with. Unlike the Star Wars sequel trilogy, which killed off beloved characters like Han and Luke, modern Dragon Ball has avoided doing anything that might alienate a large number of longtime fans. They even brought back Freeza as a recurring villain, like something out of an 80s Saturday morning cartoon, which is probably smart from a marketing standpoint. Lastly, as far as the Broly movie is concerned, many of us probably underestimated just how much people were hyped about seeing Broly and Gogeta becoming “canon”.

Of course. Drugs are great when you first start them. If they weren't, no one would do them.

While your points are well taken, I don't know if that really explains things, except for the anime community being larger. First, to quote directly from Star Wars, "no one's really ever gone". I understand where you're coming from about the status quo, but that has to wear thin at some point. Viewership went down during the original run. It had been on the air for a decade continuously.

Even though DB is big, it's nowhere near Star Wars level big. I think that level of hype plays into this issue.

[Jodaku]

I don't think anything in the Dragon Ball revival has reached the heights of Rogue One in terms of being a worthwhile addition to the overall mythology that I now can't imagine being without, despite just being a side story.

However, nothing in the Dragon Ball revival to me has been as wasteful and frustrating as Star Wars with the Sequel Trilogy.

I didn't 'need' either revival to happen and could have done without them but they're here. I wish they had focused on telling genuine continuations of their respective stories rather than a soft reboot that went nowhere as is the case with the Sequel Trilogy or the weird interquel/midquel zone Dragon Ball has been stuck in since it's revival.

I understand leaning in on nostalgia is a necessary evil and while both have at times implemented its usage gracefully; at other times it's been used with the subtlety of a mace swinging at you. Even my beloved Rogue One is guilty of one of the worse examples of it, one involving a couple of droids. And I hated Vegeta using the suicide attack in the Tournament of Power.

There's fun and enjoyment to be had that's been sprinkled in both cases, and both revivals have produced individual segments/moments (and whole films in the case of Battle of Gods and Broly and books like Lost Stars, Bloodline and Catalyst with Star Wars) that stand out as series highlights but it all ultimately feels pretty hollow.

I should note that I haven't seen The Mandalorian yet. The general reception to it seems to be positive, but even in the best case scenario, I see it and end up loving it as much as I love Rogue One, I can't imagine it would make up for how much the Sequel Trilogy has been botched.

[KBABZ]

I should note that I haven't seen The Mandalorian yet. The general reception to it seems to be positive, but even in the best case scenario, I see it and end up loving it as much as I love Rogue One, I can't imagine it would make up for how much the Sequel Trilogy has been botched.

Star Wars chatter:

Spoiler:

Mandalorian is a fantastic show (except for the middle, where it's merely enjoyable), and one of the reasons why is because it fits in that Rogue One area where it exits outside of the normal Star Wars myth arc with Jedi up the wazoo. The word Jedi is spoken exactly once, and almost nobody is aware of the Force, let alone what it actually is. It's a world of blasters rather than sabers, but manages to pull it off much better than Solo did of course. It also has great pacing in the edit. Rather than the hyperactive, SpongeBob Season 4 edit of TRoS, Mandolorian is not afraid to give you 30 seconds of pure walking/campfire downtime where nobody says anything, allowing you to feel like you're in the world rather than observing it.

You will definitely benefit from having not seen it week it week simply due to how the penultimate episode ends, but at the same time it ends on an obvious sequel hook for Season 2, which ties into the show's problem is not advancing its core plot very much and instead delegating its actual progression to the final episode, and to Season 2. It's like if the World Training filler arc took place in the middle of the original Dragon Ball Hunt arc, and Pilaf only got them their third Dragon Ball rather than having the last one and concluding the adventure.

[Toxin45]

I've been reading the 2015 Vader comic, and it's better than anything Dragon Ball has put out over the last 20 years, so that's something.

And I just watched Rise of Skywalker and it's worse than anything Dragon Ball has put out over the last 20 years. So swings and roundabouts I guess.

Although to be fair, between TFA, TLJ, The Mandalorian and that new game that's apparently quite good, modern Star Wars probably has a balance of hits overall compared to modern Dragon Ball. And quality is subjective. I've always said that it's pointless lamenting the endless cycle of reviving nostalgia-driven properties. That's just the state of pop culture, and it's been that way for a while. Getting upset that we're getting new Dragon Ball and Star Wars is like getting upset that we're getting new Batman and Spider-man comics. All we can do is hope they're good and give them a miss when they aren't so good.

You still read other comics besides marvel and dc like seriously? You don’t seem to be a comic reader there are other comics besides the big two like image comics,dark horse comics,valiant comics,idw publishing,and more.

[Toxin45]

Star Wars really hasn't had a "revival" so to speak. It's always had new material whether it be TV shows, comic books or video games. Nonetheless, for the sake of comparison, with Disney acquiring Lucasfilm and it's safe to say that all the new content released from when that acquisition occurred (2012) has essentially been 100% Disney restarting the franchise. Taking that into regard, I think the only part of the Disney's Star Wars that's been worthwhile AND good has been the Darth Vader comic book series, The Last Jedi, The Mandalorian and Star Wars Rebels. Everything else has been a wash as far as I've been concerned.

Dragon Ball in a similar spot. There was yearly video games being released, some of which had their own unique material. But like Star Wars under Disney, there was specific point that marked Dragon Ball's resurgence in content: Battle Of Gods. That movie single-handedly kick-started Dragon Ball's revival. Taking that into account, it's been more good than bad compared to Disney's Star Wars, but there have been some HUGE stinkers produced during that time. Like, some of the worst material to ever be birthed from the franchise.

Honestly though, both franchises have been largely living off of nostalgia and should be retired.

Well any other stuff you enjoy besides those two?

[Kataphrut]

I've been reading the 2015 Vader comic, and it's better than anything Dragon Ball has put out over the last 20 years, so that's something.

And I just watched Rise of Skywalker and it's worse than anything Dragon Ball has put out over the last 20 years. So swings and roundabouts I guess.

Although to be fair, between TFA, TLJ, The Mandalorian and that new game that's apparently quite good, modern Star Wars probably has a balance of hits overall compared to modern Dragon Ball. And quality is subjective. I've always said that it's pointless lamenting the endless cycle of reviving nostalgia-driven properties. That's just the state of pop culture, and it's been that way for a while. Getting upset that we're getting new Dragon Ball and Star Wars is like getting upset that we're getting new Batman and Spider-man comics. All we can do is hope they're good and give them a miss when they aren't so good.

You still read other comics besides marvel and dc like seriously? You don’t seem to be a comic reader there are other comics besides the big two like image comics,dark horse comics,valiant comics,idw publishing,and more.

Did you have a point?

I'm not a comic reader. I'm just saying that the revival era of Dragon Ball and Star Wars is no different to the endless serialisation of major superhero comic franchises, many of which predate them both. Doctor Who and Star Trek fall into this category as well. At a certain point, these franchises become too big to die, and will just keep going and going.

[Toxin45]

And I just watched Rise of Skywalker and it's worse than anything Dragon Ball has put out over the last 20 years. So swings and roundabouts I guess.

Although to be fair, between TFA, TLJ, The Mandalorian and that new game that's apparently quite good, modern Star Wars probably has a balance of hits overall compared to modern Dragon Ball. And quality is subjective. I've always said that it's pointless lamenting the endless cycle of reviving nostalgia-driven properties. That's just the state of pop culture, and it's been that way for a while. Getting upset that we're getting new Dragon Ball and Star Wars is like getting upset that we're getting new Batman and Spider-man comics. All we can do is hope they're good and give them a miss when they aren't so good.

You still read other comics besides marvel and dc like seriously? You don’t seem to be a comic reader there are other comics besides the big two like image comics,dark horse comics,valiant comics,idw publishing,and more.

Did you have a point?

I'm not a comic reader. I'm just saying that the revival era of Dragon Ball and Star Wars is no different to the endless serialisation of major superhero comic franchises, many of which predate them both. Doctor Who and Star Trek fall into this category as well. At a certain point, these franchises become too big to die, and will just keep going and going.

You kinda forgot about power rangers and kamen rider from japan

[Lord Beerus]

Star Wars really hasn't had a "revival" so to speak. It's always had new material whether it be TV shows, comic books or video games. Nonetheless, for the sake of comparison, with Disney acquiring Lucasfilm and it's safe to say that all the new content released from when that acquisition occurred (2012) has essentially been 100% Disney restarting the franchise. Taking that into regard, I think the only part of the Disney's Star Wars that's been worthwhile AND good has been the Darth Vader comic book series, The Last Jedi, The Mandalorian and Star Wars Rebels. Everything else has been a wash as far as I've been concerned.

Dragon Ball in a similar spot. There was yearly video games being released, some of which had their own unique material. But like Star Wars under Disney, there was specific point that marked Dragon Ball's resurgence in content: Battle Of Gods. That movie single-handedly kick-started Dragon Ball's revival. Taking that into account, it's been more good than bad compared to Disney's Star Wars, but there have been some HUGE stinkers produced during that time. Like, some of the worst material to ever be birthed from the franchise.

Honestly though, both franchises have been largely living off of nostalgia and should be retired.

Well any other stuff you enjoy besides those two?

You mean other franchises? Hell yeah. There are MANY other franchises I like.