Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:27 pm

Zarely wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:50 pm List
The thing with lists in DB, DBS at least, is that some characters are not as strong but have a hax that let them punch above their weight, for example Hit who I put right where you put him (or maybe lower) can kill pre-ToP SSB Goku without effort. I won't spoil the show for you, but you will see not that strong characters finding a way to tangle with way stronger foes.
I pretty much agree though, except with those cases I mentioned, I would put Black closer to the boys in blue, lower Vegito and get Champa higher.
---
And about Vegito Blue, I wouldn't call his fight with Zamasu a stalemate. I mean, it wasn't a clear win, or a win really, but it wasn't like Vegeta Blue vs Base Toppo. Vegito was pushing him hard. He would've won on points if they fought in Las Vegas.

Also, my headcanon tries to make sense to his introduction (in the manga you just can't, it was like a cameo on Friends) and I like to think that the F-KHH DID hit Zamasu hard and helped him go down against a much weaker opponent like SS Trunks who could never fight a Vegito Blue tier opponent. It could aso be the strong power to hit Zamasu with in order to unbalance him that Gowasu was talking about before they fused.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:30 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:51 pm So if Buuhan is a 100, what number would you give these fighters?

Base Goku [RoF arc]: 200
Base Goku [U6 arc]: 200
Base Goku [ToP arc]: 300

FF Freeza [RoF arc]: 180

Frost [U6 arc]: 250
Frost [ToP arc]: 300

Piccolo [U6 arc]: 80
Piccolo [ToP arc]: 90

Ribrianne: pass
Ribrianne [Big form]: pass

Kahseral: pass
Bergamo: pass
Slim Boo: 300
Base Kale: 80
Base Caulifla: 90

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:10 pm

Looks like I asked my Buuhan question at the wrong time lol. Anyway.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:30 am Canon fact: Vegetto and Zamas were equal. Vegetto used his full power Final Kamehameha claiming this would "finish it." It did not.
Canon fact 2: Vegetto also knew he only had an hour, so he wanted to end the battle as quickly as possible. Yet failed.
Canon fact three: Zamasu was "no longer immortal." Stated by Vegetto; Gowasu and Shin confirms this when they said his body was "falling apart and not healing." This was due to the immortal Zamasu mixing with a mortal Black. Which was making his immortality fade as time went on.

So, Vegetto was not holding back, Zamas was fighting Vegetto WHILE his body was breaking down due to his regeneration slowly leaving. Yet Vegetto still couldn't take advantage of this dysfunctional Zamasu because he lacked the power to do so.
Zamasu was still immortal. He survived his skull being cut in half.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm Freeza fought evenly with base Goku before the TOP.
Then FF Freeza fought evenly with Dyspo who was punking Hit and Red Goku in the TOP.
The only reason why people debate this is because, once again; TOEI's bad writing.

Therefore we have to go to the canonical source. Toriyama's RoF movie. FF Freeza was only as strong as a powered up base Goku. Nowhere was he stated to be Red level.
The only reason Dyspo was beating Hit and Goku was because of speed.

Physically hes around Super Saiyan level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:32 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:10 pm Looks like I asked my Buuhan question at the wrong time lol. Anyway.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:30 am Canon fact: Vegetto and Zamas were equal. Vegetto used his full power Final Kamehameha claiming this would "finish it." It did not.
Canon fact 2: Vegetto also knew he only had an hour, so he wanted to end the battle as quickly as possible. Yet failed.
Canon fact three: Zamasu was "no longer immortal." Stated by Vegetto; Gowasu and Shin confirms this when they said his body was "falling apart and not healing." This was due to the immortal Zamasu mixing with a mortal Black. Which was making his immortality fade as time went on.

So, Vegetto was not holding back, Zamas was fighting Vegetto WHILE his body was breaking down due to his regeneration slowly leaving. Yet Vegetto still couldn't take advantage of this dysfunctional Zamasu because he lacked the power to do so.
Zamasu was still immortal. He survived his skull being cut in half.
Zamasu's immortality was FADING as the fight went on. The story states he lost immortality because of this.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm Freeza fought evenly with base Goku before the TOP.
Then FF Freeza fought evenly with Dyspo who was punking Hit and Red Goku in the TOP.
The only reason why people debate this is because, once again; TOEI's bad writing.

Therefore we have to go to the canonical source. Toriyama's RoF movie. FF Freeza was only as strong as a powered up base Goku. Nowhere was he stated to be Red level.

The only reason Dyspo was beating Hit and Goku was because of speed.

Physically hes around Super Saiyan level.
No way. No such thing was stated. Dyspo was damaging Hit and even hurt SSG Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:57 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:05 pm There is no indication whatsoever that Vegito was just messing around with Zamasu or not taking it seriously and that's how they could trade blows, like in the aforementioned examples.
I didn't say he was but Zamasu is definitely the weaker and was starting to get overwhelmed in the second half of the fight. Theres many examples that they aren't just exceptions. There was nothing to indicate Goku was holding back against Gohan either and they traded blows but he was still weaker.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:07 am

Zarely wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:57 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:05 pm There is no indication whatsoever that Vegito was just messing around with Zamasu or not taking it seriously and that's how they could trade blows, like in the aforementioned examples.
I didn't say he was but Zamasu is definitely the weaker and was starting to get overwhelmed in the second half of the fight. Theres many examples that they aren't just exceptions. There was nothing to indicate Goku was holding back against Gohan either and they traded blows but he was still weaker.
I never said Zamasu was stronger either. I just said they are around the same level of power in the anime.

Also, I don't really remember the Recruitment phase of the TOP arc that much, but isn't it obvious that Goku was holding back against Android 17 and Gohan? They were just sparring in preparation for the upcoming Tournament, so there's a reason why he wouldn't go all out. Unlike Vegito, who was the last hope and had to defeat Zamasu before it was too late, so obviously he wouldn't hold anything back.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:59 am

They're around the same level but Zamasu is weaker. In the same sense that Super Saiyan Blue Goku was around the same level as Golden Frieza but weaker. Goku was holding back against 17 but he was too and there wasn't anything to say he was holding back against Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:15 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:32 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:10 pm Looks like I asked my Buuhan question at the wrong time lol. Anyway.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:30 am Canon fact: Vegetto and Zamas were equal. Vegetto used his full power Final Kamehameha claiming this would "finish it." It did not.
Canon fact 2: Vegetto also knew he only had an hour, so he wanted to end the battle as quickly as possible. Yet failed.
Canon fact three: Zamasu was "no longer immortal." Stated by Vegetto; Gowasu and Shin confirms this when they said his body was "falling apart and not healing." This was due to the immortal Zamasu mixing with a mortal Black. Which was making his immortality fade as time went on.

So, Vegetto was not holding back, Zamas was fighting Vegetto WHILE his body was breaking down due to his regeneration slowly leaving. Yet Vegetto still couldn't take advantage of this dysfunctional Zamasu because he lacked the power to do so.
Zamasu was still immortal. He survived his skull being cut in half.
Zamasu's immortality was FADING as the fight went on. The story states he lost immortality because of this.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm Freeza fought evenly with base Goku before the TOP.
Then FF Freeza fought evenly with Dyspo who was punking Hit and Red Goku in the TOP.
The only reason why people debate this is because, once again; TOEI's bad writing.

Therefore we have to go to the canonical source. Toriyama's RoF movie. FF Freeza was only as strong as a powered up base Goku. Nowhere was he stated to be Red level.

The only reason Dyspo was beating Hit and Goku was because of speed.

Physically hes around Super Saiyan level.
No way. No such thing was stated. Dyspo was damaging Hit and even hurt SSG Goku.
No such thing about Zamasu was stated. His body was just destructable but still immortal as proven when he survived getting cut in half and he himself opted to turn infinite.

Dyspo was getting punked by Freeza once the latter figured out his moves (negating the speed advantage) and Freeza was weaker than SS2 Cabba without his Gold form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:38 pm

Zamasu was still immortal, he even came back after his body was destroyed lol it doesn't get more immortal than that

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:46 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:15 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:32 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:10 pm Looks like I asked my Buuhan question at the wrong time lol. Anyway.



Zamasu was still immortal. He survived his skull being cut in half.
Zamasu's immortality was FADING as the fight went on. The story states he lost immortality because of this.
Miracles wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm Freeza fought evenly with base Goku before the TOP.
Then FF Freeza fought evenly with Dyspo who was punking Hit and Red Goku in the TOP.
The only reason why people debate this is because, once again; TOEI's bad writing.

Therefore we have to go to the canonical source. Toriyama's RoF movie. FF Freeza was only as strong as a powered up base Goku. Nowhere was he stated to be Red level.

The only reason Dyspo was beating Hit and Goku was because of speed.

Physically hes around Super Saiyan level.
No way. No such thing was stated. Dyspo was damaging Hit and even hurt SSG Goku.
No such thing about Zamasu was stated. His body was just destructable but still immortal as proven when he survived getting cut in half and he himself opted to turn infinite.

Dyspo was getting punked by Freeza once the latter figured out his moves (negating the speed advantage) and Freeza was weaker than SS2 Cabba without his Gold form.
You are shooting headcanon again. FF Freeza and Dyspo were trading blows evenly. Dyspo even started to push him back DESPITE Freeza reading his movements. Besides Freeza's FF was never stated to be weaker than SSJ2 Cabba.

Vegetto straight up stated Zamasu was no longer immortal. Gowasu even stated his body is NOT regenerating [immortality] but FALLING apart. Hence why Trunks was damaging/hurting him. just cause he SURVIVED it doesn't mean his immortality was no longer fading.

These are story facts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:10 pm

It doesn't get any more factual than "he came back from being cut in half and destroyed, merged with the universe and the highest authority had to come and erase him, universe and all"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:16 pm

That doesn't make the fact of Zamas invulnerability dissipating invalid. He survived Trunks attack is all with fading immortality. Which is all the story facts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:39 pm

What the hell is fading immortality? you either are immortal or you are not. Zamasu's immortality "faded" when Zeno erased it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:44 pm

Fused Zamasu still had an immortal soul. Only his body was no longer invincible, and that's because half of it came from the mortal Black. The other half was still immortal thanks to Future Zamasu and suffered no damage whatsoever. The balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and semi-immortal body grew unstable. By severing that connection with their strong attacks, they managed to negate his regeneration permanently, that's why he could no longer regenerate after Trunks cut him in half. However he still had an immortal soul, that's why he was able to talk and laugh despite having his brain literally split in half. That's also why he did not go to Hell after self-destructing, but continued to live on as an immortal ethereal entity.
Zarely wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:59 am They're around the same level but Zamasu is weaker. In the same sense that Super Saiyan Blue Goku was around the same level as Golden Frieza but weaker. Goku was holding back against 17 but he was too and there wasn't anything to say he was holding back against Gohan.
I never said Zamasu was stronger than Vegito, but they were still in the same level of power. Which is different from what you originally said, which is that Zamasu was much weaker than Vegito.

Also there's no reason at all to believe that Vegito was holding back. Why would he do that, given the circumstances? Indeed, he didn't hold anything back and tried to attack him twice with his strongest attacks, only for them to fail.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:45 pm

Nowhere was it said Zamasu's immortality was fading. You only have Vegetto's "You are no longer immortal" line and that was proven false when again, Zamasu survived being cut in half. You keep ignoring that HE CHOOSE TO TURN INFINITE. Future Trunks didn't destroy him.

Zamasu also keeps saying he was immortal during the episode.

Freeza still sat him on his ass even when he started to push back. Power wise they are on par. E112 confirmed FF Freeza is weaker than SS2 Cabba so both him and Dyspo are under that level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:02 pm

I just rewatched the one hour special and thought it was quite telling.

Shin says that Jiren is the most powerful "opponent" he'd ever seen and he had previously seen Half Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

However Jiren was hugely suppressed at the time as Whis said it's a far cry from his real strength. At the same time he also says that Jiren's power is in the realm of a destroyer and that the rumour of a mortal who is so strong that his own destroyer can't defeat him appears to be true. Though was he saying that about suppressed Jiren or taking into account he was suppressed?

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku also matched that Jiren and was said to have more power than the Spirit Bomb which means he should certainly be stronger than the Future Trunks who absorbed the Spirit Sword.

But I'm not sure how this all ties together. Shin also said that Blue Vegito is maybe stronger than Beerus and the same was said about Broly.

If hugely suppressed Jiren is already stronger than Fused Zamasu you could argue then that he could be more powerful than Broly at that point no?

So surely at full power Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren must far surpass Broly.

Ultra Instinct Goku > Jiren (limit breaker) > Jiren (full power) > Broly ~ Blue Vegito >= Beerus ~ Jiren (suppressed) = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku > Fused Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:22 pm

Gowasu stated Zamas body was breaking down and not healing [immortality]. Shin stated Zamas was not healing [immortality] but "falling apart." That means Zamas immortality was FADING CONTINUALLY. IE losing it as he was fighting. Vegeta even asked why wasn't Zamas healing [immortality]. This is all Confirmed with Vegeto's line that Zamas was no longer immortal. This is all facts. Zamas merely surviving Trunks after getting injured/damaged by him STILL does not change those truths.
Zarely wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:02 pm I just rewatched the one hour special and thought it was quite telling.

Shin says that Jiren is the most powerful "opponent" he'd ever seen and he had previously seen Half Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

However Jiren was hugely suppressed at the time as Whis said it's a far cry from his real strength. At the same time he also says that Jiren's power is in the realm of a destroyer and that the rumour of a mortal who is so strong that his own destroyer can't defeat him appears to be true. Though was he saying that about suppressed Jiren or taking into account he was suppressed?

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku also matched that Jiren and was said to have more power than the Spirit Bomb which means he should certainly be stronger than the Future Trunks who absorbed the Spirit Sword.

But I'm not sure how this all ties together. Shin also said that Blue Vegito is maybe stronger than Beerus and the same was said about Broly.

If hugely suppressed Jiren is already stronger than Fused Zamasu you could argue then that he could be more powerful than Broly at that point no?

So surely at full power Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren must far surpass Broly.

Ultra Instinct Goku > Jiren (limit breaker) > Jiren (full power) > Broly ~ Blue Vegito >= Beerus ~ Jiren (suppressed) = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku > Fused Zamasu
Except Toriyama stated the next enemy is always stronger than the last in DB. Jiren by default is weaker than Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:38 pm

All statements were disproven when Zamasu actually came back from thin air and started to engulf the universe.

Later facts > previous statements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:42 pm

^That's just headcanon. Zamasu coming back doesn't disprove the story about his failed immortality. It just means he survived Trunks attack.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:55 pm

A body falling apart =/= Not Immortal.

The fact remains that he survived his brain getting slice in half and no Saiyan or Kaioshin can do that.

He is immortal.

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