Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Omgzord]

Just like how Goku was supposed to be stronger than Beerus after he spammed Kaio-ken again? He doubled his power 20 TIMES for god sake was still walking fodder for Beerus and that is ignoring all the power-ups he had throughout Super.

If you apply some logic, Beerus must have used less than 0.1% of his power against SSG Goku, yet he was somehow satisfied.
IMO those anime original power-ups don't matter as long Toriyama doesn't write a script where it's stated that Goku "or any character for that matter"

Toei just likes to add mindless power-ups to keep the tension throughout every fight regardless of it flow into the story. Doflamingo was able to power struggle with Luffy for a whole damn episode with Luffy needing some friendship speech to even overpower him. In the manga tho, Luffy smashes in his face the moment his attack lands in one page.

Just my two cents.

[Koitsukai]

Just like how Goku was supposed to be stronger than Beerus after he spammed Kaio-ken again? He doubled his power 20 TIMES for god sake was still walking fodder for Beerus and that is ignoring all the power-ups he had throughout Super.

If you apply some logic, Beerus must have used less than 0.1% of his power against SSG Goku, yet he was somehow satisfied.
IMO those anime original power-ups don't matter as long Toriyama doesn't write a script where it's stated that Goku "or any character for that matter"

Toei just likes to add mindless power-ups to keep the tension throughout every fight regardless of it flow into the story. Doflamingo was able to power struggle with Luffy for a whole damn episode with Luffy needing some friendship speech to even overpower him. In the manga tho, Luffy smashes in his face the moment his attack lands in one page.

Just my two cents.

I don't know what you mean about Goku Kaioken being stronger than Beerus, but never was Goku supposed to be stronger than Beerus just by using kaioken. Are you referring to Beerus worrying when Goku went KK vs Hit? he immediately dismissed that.

The anime power-ups matter because we are discussing anime events, although even in the manga Jiren powers up to overcome UI.

The fact remains, A's teacher said A lost to B(so they are relatable), and that C is stronger than B. Then C becomes much more stronger, therefore C is still far from A???

[Miracles]

Yeah, not buying this "Jiren > Beerus" either unless the show specifically addresses it.

All Jiren has is some vague statement about being in the domain of GoDs MAYBE surpassing it.
Yet, the very same power that defeated him "Ultra Instinct" is only referred to as the "breaking power of gods" or "domain of gods"
The only thing we know for sure about Jiren is that he's stronger than Belmod and that's all.

It's nice to see unpolluted facts without the fan dialogue inserted.

Well done.

[Zarely]

Goku literally burned himself out trying to fight Jiren and the latter was fine. They were not on par at all.

That was only in the difference of how the power was handled but they did fight on par as several characters said. Jiren's suppressed power was stable unlike Gokus Ultra Instinct which tapped out quick but they still fought on par with each other.

Goku never absorbed the Genkidama though. Trunks did and that's a bigger boost.

No, Whis said that had Goku absorbed the the Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough. His strength as Ultra Instinct was greater than had he absorbed the Spirit Bomb.

Meanwhile Trunks only absorbed a smaller one. Therefore making him the weaker character.

[ZombieVito]

Goku literally burned himself out trying to fight Jiren and the latter was fine. They were not on par at all.

That was only in the difference of how the power was handled but they did fight on par as several characters said. Jiren's suppressed power was stable unlike Gokus Ultra Instinct which tapped out quick but they still fought on par with each other.

Goku never absorbed the Genkidama though. Trunks did and that's a bigger boost.

No, Whis said that had Goku absorbed the the Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough. His strength as Ultra Instinct was greater than had he absorbed the Spirit Bomb.

Meanwhile Trunks only absorbed a smaller one. Therefore making him the weaker character.

No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.

Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.

[Lionel]

A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.

[Koitsukai]

A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.

I feel they would still die against Namek Freeza, aside from Tenshinhan's Kikoho that can help him punch much above his weight. Actually if took Goku all the way to BoG to be in base a match for Namek Freeza(I think he can take Freeza but still), the humans shouldn't be even close to that.

U6 Assault Form Frost was giving Base Goku a run for his money, so probably the only Frost they could fight is him in his 1st form. And that Frost, if his Assault Form is DBS base tier, should still be incredibly strong, like early Cell saga or something.

Like you said, it is difficult to gauge because they were irrelevant for so long, being just spectators at best. I prefer to pretend the UI Roshi thing never happened.

[ZombieVito]

Well, we do know Kuririn is weaker than base ToP Gohan before training with Piccolo so they are still far off from Namek FF Freeza.

Having said that, I can see the 3 of them beating him with teamwork.

[Lionel]

A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.

I feel they would still die against Namek Freeza, aside from Tenshinhan's Kikoho that can help him punch much above his weight. Actually if took Goku all the way to BoG to be in base a match for Namek Freeza(I think he can take Freeza but still), the humans shouldn't be even close to that.

U6 Assault Form Frost was giving Base Goku a run for his money, so probably the only Frost they could fight is him in his 1st form. And that Frost, if his Assault Form is DBS base tier, should still be incredibly strong, like early Cell saga or something.

Like you said, it is difficult to gauge because they were irrelevant for so long, being just spectators at best. I prefer to pretend the UI Roshi thing never happened.

Irrelevant, sadly, but in a way more interesting than some characters, in my opinion, because they're even less cemented than the likes of Goku Black or Jiren. It obviously has to do with so little content having been offered to them, though.

My thoughts are Krillin and Tenshinhan would potentially have the tools necessary to make some relatively decent power gains. Krillin has his biologically enhanced cybernetic wife to spar with while Tenshinhan seems to be at ease training up in the mountains. Similar to Piccolo training where the palace of Kami's is, from a biological standpoint, Tenshinhan would be exposed to the difficulties of upper elevation atmosphere.

Krillin did look to be defensively holding his ground somewhat against Yunba but all we know of him is that he easily took out the Zoon-seijen. Pui-Pui was likely the strongest of that species -- outfitted with the Majinisation power-up, I imagine -- and he still got easily taken out by Base Vegeta from the Buu arc.

[Zarely]

No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.

They fought on par for the level that Jiren was using at the time which was an amount greater than Fused Zamasu. If Ultra Instinct Omen Goku could match that Jiren then he's stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.

No it doesn't, that's an assumption. Fused Zamasu was always weaker than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku.

[ZombieVito]

No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.

They fought on par for the level that Jiren was using at the time which was an amount greater than Fused Zamasu. If Ultra Instinct Omen Goku could match that Jiren then he's stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.

No it doesn't, that's an assumption. Fused Zamasu was always weaker than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku.

We'll have to agree to disagree pal.

[Mad Swami]

I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.

[BagetaSama]

I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.

The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?

[Mad Swami]

I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.

The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?

Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad

[Zarely]

How does Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 stack up compared to everyone now?

Neither are as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Gohan is stronger than Android 17 but after that it's all pretty vague.

Like is Gohan stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Legendary Super Saiyan Kale? Super Saiyan God Goku? Base Kefla? Golden Frieza from the Resurrection F movie? Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Is there any other means of comparison? I recall he was sort of on the level of those Namekians but I don't know what they compare to either.

[Koitsukai]

To me it goes:
Blue people, Freeza, Black, Toppo

Gohan
17(somewhere here goes Hit)

God, Base Kefla (God without the fatigue should compare at least)

Kale
SS3

[ZombieVito]

The narrator said Gohan rivaled Blue Goku so that puts him anywhere between 80-100% of Goku.

Me personally, I put him at 80 since him and 17 failed to do anything to Toppo.

[p-hyvo]

How does Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 stack up compared to everyone now?

Neither are as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Gohan is stronger than Android 17 but after that it's all pretty vague.

Like is Gohan stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Legendary Super Saiyan Kale? Super Saiyan God Goku? Base Kefla? Golden Frieza from the Resurrection F movie? Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Is there any other means of comparison? I recall he was sort of on the level of those Namekians but I don't know what they compare to either.

Anime : ssb =Golden freezer>17>Gohan
17 shown ti be stronger than Gohan in their fight with toppo, where 17 was carrying
Manga : ssbfp=Golden>Gohan>17
Gohan Is said to be the strongest on earth without Goku and aroud

[p-hyvo]

I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.

The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?

Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad

The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power

[Lionel]

The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?

Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad

The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power

We know Krillin insisted that she restrain herself lest someone get killed during the competition as he was heading off with everyone else to Babidi's. At first Mighty Mask was considered an anomaly, but still human from #18's perspective. She was able to avoid a projectile from their Super Saiyan states, to boot. If the gap was so small between their untransformed states and this cyborg why bother charging an attack at all? They could easily do to her what Goku and Krillin used to do to the competitors in the preliminary matches in DB classic, burdensome costume or not.

I think Goku could almost certainly bring down Freeza using the Kaioken in the Buu arc. The other unfused Saiyans lack that ability.